Would you rather have this Leafs or Jets group of four young forwards?

Which group would you take?


  • Total voters
    349
  • Poll closed .

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
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You claimed he was facing third line competition I demonstrated that to be false.



Sorry, but you are clueless. When people first started looking at this more then a decade ago QoC was one of the first things they tackled. It was dumped because when they did the math it turned out QoC was irrelevant. You are not doing some new groundbreaking work, you are trying to re-invent the square wheel and lack the ability to even begin understanding why you are wrong.



It's not "belief" it's math.


I said Lowry brings less to an offensive line than Scheifele. I'm not sure why you think you can just swap Hyman for Scheifele (perhaps the same reason you think Hyman is "comparable to Wheeler"?)

In terms of value, Lowry is a big physical Center who drives a dominant defensive line, something few teams have but every team wants. Hyman is a spare part you try and use wherever you can. The former has great value the latter is a dime a dozen, something every team has

and if you still don't believe qoc matters, then please explain why wheeler, laine, and connor are the worst forwards on your team:

1.Lowry 57.9cf%
2.Perreault 57.0cf%
3.Stastny 54.7%
4.Copp 54.5cf%
5 Ehlers 54.1cf%
6.Armia 53.7
7.Scheifele 51.6
8.Tanev 51.5
9.Little 51.4
10.wheeler 50.6
11.laine 50.3
12.connor 50.1

are wheeler, laine, and connor the worst forwards on the team?
 

FlappyGiraffe

Go Jets Go
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Jul 3, 2015
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and if you still don't believe qoc matters, then please explain why wheeler, laine, and connor are the worst forwards on your team:

1.Lowry 57.9cf%
2.Perreault 57.0cf%
3.Stastny 54.7%
4.Copp 54.5cf%
5 Ehlers 54.1cf%
6.Armia 53.7
7.Scheifele 51.6
8.Tanev 51.5
9.Little 51.4
10.wheeler 50.6
11.laine 50.3
12.connor 50.1

are wheeler, laine, and connor the worst forwards on the team?
You're right, can't believe those jabronis are still in the lineup - probably cost us the presidents trophy
 

Krauser

Registered User
Oct 3, 2017
270
1,168
The numbers are precise and specific. Lowry has faced 3rd line competition this year.

3rd line on average, true. Not exclusively 3rd line. Since November, Lowry's played 1st line competition as often as Maurice can match him up against them, and he's been similarly successful.

But overall, 3rd line competition, yes.

now ask yourself how is it possible that a crap player like hyman is producing similar even strength stats as the great blake wheeler.

I'm not a Leafs expert, but I guess the main reason is that he plays with Matthews and Nylander?

Fact: Hyman is a productive and positive contributor to one of the best even strength lines in hockey..

Oh man. OK, let's look at this.

First off, Hyman's not especially productive, compared to his usual linemates.

5v5 P/60: Matthews 2.86, Nylander 2.52, Hyman 1.76
Compare that to the Jets 1st line: Connor 2.41, Scheifele 2.23, Wheeler 2.09

The Jets line's production is balanced within about 15% of its least productive forward (Wheeler), while Matthews outproduces Hyman by over 60% and Nylander outproduces Hyman by over 40%. That makes Hyman look like a passenger, in terms of his production.

Hyman has played almost his entire career with Matthews -- 1046 5v5 min with Matthews and only 646 5v5 min without. Here's the WOWY since Matthews was drafted in 2016:

Hyman with Matthews (2016-18): 51.4% CF%, 58.9% GF%
Hyman without Matthews (2016-18): 47.1% CF%, 41.7% GF%

Here's what Hyman's done 5v5 with other Leaf centres, dating back to 2015 when available:

Hyman with Kadri: 84 min, 47.7% CF%, 28.5% GF%
Hyman with Bozak: 64 min, 44.3% CF%, 0% GF%
Hyman with Plekanec: 22 min, 44.2% CF%, 40% GF%
Hyman with Moore: 24 min, 47% CF%, 0% GF%
Hyman with Komarov: 48 min, 27.0% CF%, 33.3% GF%

Small sample sizes, yes -- but if your claim is that Hyman plays a significant part of the Leafs top line's success, and that that success is all the more impressive because they've faced top competition, it doesn't make sense that Hyman's had so little success otherwise, even playing against bottom 6 QoC with Komarov, Bozak, Plekanec and Moore.

It's almost like a hard working, low skill forechecking winger will rise and fall on the quality of his linemates, as much or more than the quality of his competition. Hyman doesn't drive his line like Wheeler does (Wheeler played 1C for the Jets for over a month, with Scheifele out -- I'd like to see Hyman try that!), or like Lowry does in a bottom 6 role, so Hyman shouldn't get much credit for their success.

It's especially ironic to use Hyman's role as Matthews' winger as a point in a debate about young depth forwards. Hyman's success has nothing to do with being a depth forward, and what Hyman would do as a depth forward (if he actually played that role, which he doesn't) wouldn't be so successful (because he wouldn't be playing with Matthews).

Look, stats aside -- we all know the Leafs 1st line isn't one of the best even strength lines in hockey because of Zach Hyman. It's because Auston Matthews is one of the best even strength players in hockey. The Leafs could play a pushbroom glued to a Roomba on Matthews' left wing and the Roomba would put up 20 even strength points just from having the puck bounce off it on the way to Matthews a couple of times per shift.

Giving Hyman credit for the success of the Leafs 1st line, and pretending that the shot metrics, point production and QoC for that line have a lot to do with him is like giving Ringo a lot of the credit for the Beatles. The band had great success, and he was in the band, but it's not like their success happened because he was in the band.
 
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joe dirte

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
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Try reading the thread a few pages before calling people out. You will find several Leafs fans who don't want to give up Connor Brown for Trouba.
in fairness, I'd be reluctant to give up much for trouba. he's a good dman but has been a malcontent that has voiced his desire to go south in the past, seems to be looking for the biggest payday he can get, and has had a down year this year (not his first). hes shown stretches of being a top pairing dman but some underwhelming stretches too.
 

Blue Shakehead

because lol Jets
Mar 18, 2011
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www.becauseloljets.com
in fairness, I'd be reluctant to give up much for trouba. he's a good dman but has been a malcontent that has voiced his desire to go south in the past, seems to be looking for the biggest payday he can get, and has had a down year this year (not his first). hes shown stretches of being a top pairing dman but some underwhelming stretches too.

I have no idea where he wants to play going forward but will concede that it may not be in Canada. He's not having a down year at all though - he just doesn't get on the PP where most Dmen make their hay with point production. He is our top defenseman at 5v5 and anchors the PK. At 5v5, he is outscoring Morgan Rielly and almost everyone else you could think of as an offensive Dman. Trouba dominates his matchups and is way underrated.
 

joe dirte

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
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I have no idea where he wants to play going forward but will concede that it may not be in Canada. He's not having a down year at all though - he just doesn't get on the PP where most Dmen make their hay with point production. He is our top defenseman at 5v5 and anchors the PK. At 5v5, he is outscoring Morgan Rielly and almost everyone else you could think of as an offensive Dman. Trouba dominates his matchups and is way underrated.
Rielly has 27 ES points and Trouba has 20. are you referring to points oer game or points per 60?
 

Romang67

BitterSwede
Jan 2, 2011
29,604
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Evanston, IL
somewhere around here you should have realized that hyman has as many non-pp points as laine, done a double take, and pondered your analysis of hyman. and his linemates.
Really doubling down on this, huh? Why did you change the even strength producer from Wheeler to Laine?

A physics professor I had once stated that analysis is imperative to explore the universe, and you shouldn't take anything for granted. However, if you in your pendulum experiment find out that the force of gravity on earth is 5 m/s^2, you probably didn't make a groundbreaking discovery.

Hyman has almost 80% as many points as Wheeler does on even strength. Good on him. I'm sure any NHL coach would jump on the opportunity to throw him out on the ice instead of Wheeler.
 

Walt22

Registered User
Mar 19, 2018
696
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Yeah, Trouba has missed 26 games, so it would be even strength PPG and P/60.
Right now Joe dirte is thinking...damn I didn't think about that...and will go back to hiding in the basement...like these leaf fans do when they run out of excuses.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
Really doubling down on this, huh? Why did you change the even strength producer from Wheeler to Laine?

A physics professor I had once stated that analysis is imperative to explore the universe, and you shouldn't take anything for granted. However, if you in your pendulum experiment find out that the force of gravity on earth is 5 m/s^2, you probably didn't make a groundbreaking discovery.

Hyman has almost 80% as many points as Wheeler does on even strength. Good on him. I'm sure any NHL coach would jump on the opportunity to throw him out on the ice instead of Wheeler.

you are attempting to latch on to a single passing comment in order to avoid giving hyman credit for what he is.

that's your choice. but we both know it's a disengenous one.

you could have just as easily taken issue with the hyman-tanev comp above, but didn't. you know Ibdidn't actually say hyman is as good as wheeler, only that he has been surprisingly similarly effective as him at even strength.

but, if you want to know why the hyman-wheeler comp was made originally, it's because they're both being used in the exact same even strength role against the exact same competition, and doing this:

Wheeler: 2.06p/60, 1.37p1/60, 50.4cf% (-2.4rel), 51.7xgf% (-1.4rel)
Hyman: 1.69p/60, 1.43p1/60, 50.7cf% (-0.0rel), 52.6xgf% (+2.5rel)

so aside from secondary assists, hyman is doing a shockingly good job matching up with wheeler at even strength this year.

so you can continue to try and derail the convo with your gotcha "OMIGOD HE SAYS HYMAN = WHEEELER" schtick, or you can try to join the conversation and appreciate that you and fellow jets fans may be vastly underrating what hyman does - even though leaf fans have no problem giving lowry credit for what he does.

and yes, hyman has as many non-pp points as laine, too.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
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3rd line on average, true. Not exclusively 3rd line. Since November, Lowry's played 1st line competition as often as Maurice can match him up against them, and he's been similarly successful.

But overall, 3rd line competition, yes.

correct.


I'm not a Leafs expert, but I guess the main reason is that he plays with Matthews and Nylander?

Oh man. OK, let's look at this.

First off, Hyman's not especially productive, compared to his usual linemates.

5v5 P/60: Matthews 2.86, Nylander 2.52, Hyman 1.76
Compare that to the Jets 1st line: Connor 2.41, Scheifele 2.23, Wheeler 2.09

The Jets line's production is balanced within about 15% of its least productive forward (Wheeler), while Matthews outproduces Hyman by over 60% and Nylander outproduces Hyman by over 40%. That makes Hyman look like a passenger, in terms of his production.

Hyman has played almost his entire career with Matthews -- 1046 5v5 min with Matthews and only 646 5v5 min without. Here's the WOWY since Matthews was drafted in 2016:

Hyman with Matthews (2016-18): 51.4% CF%, 58.9% GF%
Hyman without Matthews (2016-18): 47.1% CF%, 41.7% GF%

Here's what Hyman's done 5v5 with other Leaf centres, dating back to 2015 when available:

Hyman with Kadri: 84 min, 47.7% CF%, 28.5% GF%
Hyman with Bozak: 64 min, 44.3% CF%, 0% GF%
Hyman with Plekanec: 22 min, 44.2% CF%, 40% GF%
Hyman with Moore: 24 min, 47% CF%, 0% GF%
Hyman with Komarov: 48 min, 27.0% CF%, 33.3% GF%

Small sample sizes, yes -- but if your claim is that Hyman plays a significant part of the Leafs top line's success, and that that success is all the more impressive because they've faced top competition, it doesn't make sense that Hyman's had so little success otherwise, even playing against bottom 6 QoC with Komarov, Bozak, Plekanec and Moore.

It's almost like a hard working, low skill forechecking winger will rise and fall on the quality of his linemates, as much or more than the quality of his competition. Hyman doesn't drive his line like Wheeler does (Wheeler played 1C for the Jets for over a month, with Scheifele out -- I'd like to see Hyman try that!), or like Lowry does in a bottom 6 role, so Hyman shouldn't get much credit for their success.

It's especially ironic to use Hyman's role as Matthews' winger as a point in a debate about young depth forwards. Hyman's success has nothing to do with being a depth forward, and what Hyman would do as a depth forward (if he actually played that role, which he doesn't) wouldn't be so successful (because he wouldn't be playing with Matthews).

Look, stats aside -- we all know the Leafs 1st line isn't one of the best even strength lines in hockey because of Zach Hyman. It's because Auston Matthews is one of the best even strength players in hockey. The Leafs could play a pushbroom glued to a Roomba on Matthews' left wing and the Roomba would put up 20 even strength points just from having the puck bounce off it on the way to Matthews a couple of times per shift.

Giving Hyman credit for the success of the Leafs 1st line, and pretending that the shot metrics, point production and QoC for that line have a lot to do with him is like giving Ringo a lot of the credit for the Beatles. The band had great success, and he was in the band, but it's not like their success happened because he was in the band.

This all sounds very nice.

Sounds like you are saying auston matthews is clearly better than any jets forward - correct?

but note that i am not doing anything here but comparing hyman to the jets 3rd liner lowry. i do not believe hyman is a "1st line winger", just a very good 3rd liner good enough to be part of one of the best lines in hockey.

I would quibble with the use of wowys here even beyond the small sample size, as that time spent apart from matthews was mostly late game defensive zone situations last year when matthews wasn't used there and at the end of pks when the pk is still hemmed in their zone, but that's just a quibble. if you look at his non matthews time this year, which is much fairer because it looks at long multi game stretches of typical usage, not situational usage like last year, here are his most common non-matthews lines:

Hyman-Marleau-Brown 57.0cf% (+9.3rel)
Hyman-Nylander-Marleau 50.6cf% (+1.3rel)
Hyman-Nylander-Marner 57.6cf% (+6.0rel)
Hyman-Nylander-Brown 49.3cf% (-1.2rel)
Hyman-Nylander-Johnsson 67.1cf% (+11.7rel)
 
Last edited:

Krauser

Registered User
Oct 3, 2017
270
1,168
Sounds like you are saying auston matthews is clearly better than any jets forward - correct?

Yes? At least in terms of his scoring chance generation and 5v5 points this year, which is what your argument for Hyman depends on.

His line’s success this year depends at least in part on a high on-ice shot percentage, and a probably unsustainable PDO, so I’m not sure he’ll maintain this level of production 5v5 long term — Matthews didn’t score nearly as much 5v5 as a rookie, but maybe some of the improvement is his own development, not just luck.

Anyway, I would bet on Matthews being one of the most productive centres in the NHL long term, 5v5 or otherwise. He’s already at least as good as Scheifele, his best comparison on the Jets, and Matthews can be expected to get even better.

but note that i am not doing anything here but comparing hyman to the jets 3rd liner lowry. i do not believe hyman is a "1st line winger", just a very good 3rd liner good enough to be part of one of the best lines in hockey.

Where is the evidence that Hyman is a very good 3rd liner? When he’s played with Bozak, Kadri, etc, he hasn’t been nearly productive.

Your theory seems to suggest that Hyman would do even better in a bottom 6 situation, when he’s facing lesser QoC. But actually, he does worse than when he’s playing with Matthews against top lines.

How do you explain the fact that Hyman’s numbers depend so heavily on who his centre is?

If Hyman played with Bozak on the 3rd line, against 3rd line QoC, do you think their results would look more like the current Bozak line, or the current Matthews line?

Keep in mind that Lowry has completely dominated 3rd line competition that Bozak has struggled with by comparison, and Lowry is the main driver of his line. So Bozak plus Hyman would have to be way better than the current Bozak line to match what Lowry’s done this year.
 

joe dirte

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
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Everything said in that post is factually true... I'd recommend that you don't respond to this unless you want to be embarrassed.
if be willing to bet if you started a poll the vast majority of fans outside Winnipeg would take marner over Kyle Connor with half a second hesitation.

but don't try it. you'll embarrass yourself.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
Yes? At least in terms of his scoring chance generation and 5v5 points this year, which is what your argument for Hyman depends on.

His line’s success this year depends at least in part on a high on-ice shot percentage, and a probably unsustainable PDO, so I’m not sure he’ll maintain this level of production 5v5 long term — Matthews didn’t score nearly as much 5v5 as a rookie, but maybe some of the improvement is his own development, not just luck.

Anyway, I would bet on Matthews being one of the most productive centres in the NHL long term, 5v5 or otherwise. He’s already at least as good as Scheifele, his best comparison on the Jets, and Matthews can be expected to get even better.

All your numbers say he is clearly better than scheifele - so why do you pull your punches at the end here?


Where is the evidence that Hyman is a very good 3rd liner? When he’s played with Bozak, Kadri, etc, he hasn’t been nearly productive.

Your theory seems to suggest that Hyman would do even better in a bottom 6 situation, when he’s facing lesser QoC. But actually, he does worse than when he’s playing with Matthews against top lines.

How do you explain the fact that Hyman’s numbers depend so heavily on who his centre is?

maybe you missed my edit above, but here's hyman's top 5 most common non-matthews lines this year:

Hyman-Marleau-Brown 57.0cf% (+9.3rel)
Hyman-Nylander-Marleau 50.6cf% (+1.3rel)
Hyman-Nylander-Marner 57.6cf% (+6.0rel)
Hyman-Nylander-Brown 49.3cf% (-1.2rel)
Hyman-Nylander-Johnsson 67.1cf% (+11.7rel)



If Hyman played with Bozak on the 3rd line, against 3rd line QoC, do you think their results would look more like the current Bozak line, or the current Matthews line?

Keep in mind that Lowry has completely dominated 3rd line competition that Bozak has struggled with by comparison, and Lowry is the main driver of his line. So Bozak plus Hyman would have to be way better than the current Bozak line to match what Lowry’s done this year.

bozak has struggled? how do you figure? bozak is imo a perfect example of a guy who used to struggle mightly against top line competition in previous years, but is now flourishing against 3rd line competition this year:

VanRyk-Bozak-Brown 54.3cf% (+4.2rel)
VanRyk-Bozak-Marner 54.9cf% (+4.6rel)
 

Blue Shakehead

because lol Jets
Mar 18, 2011
3,038
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www.becauseloljets.com
Zach Hyman might be the ultimate utility player - on the ice and on HF Boards. Leafs fans can point to him as the reason why Matthews doesn't have anywhere near the assist totals of any of the top centers in the game (despite also playing with Nylander who only has 19 goals) and then on the other side of their mouths, they will point out how great Hyman actually is and how his production is similar to Blake Wheeler at even strength.

I love advanced stats, but the problem is that the differences between players are often so marginal that you can make a lot of players look alike:

Auston Matthews: 2.89 p/60, 2.56 p1/60, 50.99 cf% (0.62 rel), 53.04 xgf% (+2.75rel)
Craig Smith: 2.11 p/60, 1.81 p1/60, 56.79 cf% (7.68 rel), 57.2 xgf% (+8.94)

Call me up when Hyman gets some Hart Trophy votes like Wheeler will or when you want to trade Matthews for Craig Smith. Until then, get that shit out of here.
 

Krauser

Registered User
Oct 3, 2017
270
1,168
All your numbers say he is clearly better than scheifele - so why do you pull your punches at the end here?

As I said, because some of Matthews production this year is probably unsustainable due to OISH% and PDO.

Even so, he’s a better player than Scheifele long term, and probably right now too.

maybe you missed my edit above, but here's hyman's top 5 most common non-matthews lines this year:

Hyman-Marleau-Brown 57.0cf% (+9.3rel)
Hyman-Nylander-Marleau 50.6cf% (+1.3rel)
Hyman-Nylander-Marner 57.6cf% (+6.0rel)
Hyman-Nylander-Brown 49.3cf% (-1.2rel)
Hyman-Nylander-Johnsson 67.1cf% (+11.7rel)

Where do you get these numbers from, and what are the minutes in each combination?

Natural Stat Trick puts Hyman plus Marleau without Matthews at 50.4% CF%.
Hyman with Nylander without Matthews at 51.2%.
Hyman with Marner without Matthews at 46.3%

None of that’s terrible, but none of it is great either. And it’s all included in the Hyman WOWY Matthews numbers I posted above, which make it clear how heavily Hyman’s production (especially GF%) depends on Matthews.

Again, if Hyman is an excellent 3rd liner, why are his numbers with 3rd liners so mediocre?

bozak has struggled? how do you figure? bozak is imo a perfect example of a guy who used to struggle mightly against top line competition in previous years, but is now flourishing against 3rd line competition this year:

Struggled by comparison to Lowry, who’s been elite against that same QoC:



Look at the QoC, then the OZ starts. Now look at the CF% and xGF%.

Hyman would have to turn Bozak into Lowry for me to think he was as good a 3rd liner, without Matthews, as Lowry is.
 

Saidin

Registered User
Mar 18, 2015
1,250
1,043
if be willing to bet if you started a poll the vast majority of fans outside Winnipeg would take marner over Kyle Connor with half a second hesitation.

but don't try it. you'll embarrass yourself.

Haha, the voice of logic. Using HFboard polls to prove a point...
 

Romang67

BitterSwede
Jan 2, 2011
29,604
21,716
Evanston, IL
you are attempting to latch on to a single passing comment in order to avoid giving hyman credit for what he is.

No, I'm pointing out that you made a bullshit comparison that falls apart at the seams at any closer inspection.

that's your choice. but we both know it's a disengenous one.

Wait, are you actually saying that my disputing your ridiculous claim is disingenuous? You do realize that you can't just throw out ridiculous claims and expect them not to be challenged, right? If you didn't double down on the claim that Hyman essentially is Wheeler on even strength, I wouldn't have disputed it. You did, so I did. That's not being disingenuous, that's pointing out that your claim is ridiculous.

you could have just as easily taken issue with the hyman-tanev comp above, but didn't. you know Ibdidn't actually say hyman is as good as wheeler, only that he has been surprisingly similarly effective as him at even strength.

You said, and I quote:

"At even strength this year he has pretty much been Blake Wheeler."

You're right, it's weird how I took that as to mean that Hyman is as good as Wheeler on even strength. It's almost like I decided to dispute what you actually said, instead of creating a strawman argument and attack that instead. Should I assume that you don't mean what you say in all your posts, or is this limited to this one ridiculous claim?

but, if you want to know why the hyman-wheeler comp was made originally, it's because they're both being used in the exact same even strength role against the exact same competition, and doing this:

Wheeler: 2.06p/60, 1.37p1/60, 50.4cf% (-2.4rel), 51.7xgf% (-1.4rel)
Hyman: 1.69p/60, 1.43p1/60, 50.7cf% (-0.0rel), 52.6xgf% (+2.5rel)

so aside from secondary assists, hyman is doing a shockingly good job matching up with wheeler at even strength this year.

Yes, aside from Wheeler's significant advantage in secondary assists, and thereby in point production, they are really close in point production on even strength.

so you can continue to try and derail the convo with your gotcha "OMIGOD HE SAYS HYMAN = WHEEELER" schtick, or you can try to join the conversation and appreciate that you and fellow jets fans may be vastly underrating what hyman does - even though leaf fans have no problem giving lowry credit for what he does.

and yes, hyman has as many non-pp points as laine, too.

If you think I'm derailing the conversation when I'm attacking your claims, you are free to report my posts. Having read the rules once or twice, I don't think it's actually against the rules to attack someone's claims. If you don't want people to attack your ridiculous claims, maybe you should take a minute or two to think over why people are attacking them? To assert that I'm being disingenuous because I dispute your ridiculous claims, and further to insinuate that I am derailing a topic when I'm disagreeing with your claims, however, is quite frankly such a laughable attempt at backpedaling.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
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As I said, because some of Matthews production this year is probably unsustainable due to OISH% and PDO.

Even so, he’s a better player than Scheifele long term, and probably right now too.

no probably imo.


Where do you get these numbers from, and what are the minutes in each combination?

Natural Stat Trick puts Hyman plus Marleau without Matthews at 50.4% CF%.
Hyman with Nylander without Matthews at 51.2%.
Hyman with Marner without Matthews at 46.3%

i use the line combos at corsica.hockey, because they can be adjusted for zone usage and score effects.

with minutes:

Hyman-Marleau-Brown 57.0cf% (+9.3rel) - 54.67min
Hyman-Nylander-Marleau 50.6cf% (+1.3rel) - 41.38min
Hyman-Nylander-Marner 57.6cf% (+6.0rel) - 41.03min
Hyman-Nylander-Brown 49.3cf% (-1.2rel) - 27.68min
Hyman-Nylander-Johnsson 67.1cf% (+11.7rel) - 23.02min
Hyman-Marleau-Marner 25.1cf% (-24.4rel) - 22.83min
Hyman-Pleks- Marner 51.9cf% (-1.2rel) - 17.92min

no other 15+ min combos.





None of that’s terrible, but none of it is great either. And it’s all included in the Hyman WOWY Matthews numbers I posted above, which make it clear how heavily Hyman’s production (especially GF%) depends on Matthews.

Again, if Hyman is an excellent 3rd liner, why are his numbers with 3rd liners so mediocre?

as we can see, they're not.


Struggled by comparison to Lowry, who’s been elite against that same QoC:

struggled is not the word. Bozak has been very good in his 3rd line matchups this year, not surprisingly much better than be did in first line matchups. he js the perfect examlple of how quality of competition can effect a player's stats.



Look at the QoC, then the OZ starts. Now look at the CF% and xGF%.

Hyman would have to turn Bozak into Lowry for me to think he was as good a 3rd liner, without Matthews, as Lowry is.

And Lowry would have to play topline minutes against topline players, and help make that line one of the elite lines in the league, for him to show he's as good as hyman.
 

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