Winnipeg Jets Hockey Operations

[voyageur]

I don't know what they have to gain by skewing the numbers but anyway you look at it Chipman thought the NHL could work in Winnipeg and took a big chance and has proved everyone he was right.

Without David Thomson to finance the purchase, the NHL doesn't even sniff Chipman, so you have to give credit where credit is due. Chipman is the guy who had the blueprint for a break even team, which Atlanta was never going to be, but it took a perfect storm of Bettman promising to move Detroit to the East, and no other Western markets ready to purchase a franchise (no arena in Seattle at the time, and Portland's Allen balking at franchise values) and an ownership group in Atlanta that was ready to sue the league to get its franchise moved so that they could sell their other entities. $110 million investment, with $60 million paid to the other NHL owners to grease the wheel, even at $575 million that's a pretty good investment. I just don't believe that $805 million number. The Senators won't sell for that much, and an arena in LaBreton Flats is on the horizon for whoever buys the team, that's prime real estate. Downtown Winnipeg, not so much...

But you're right it's great to be in the NHL, it's the only way Winnipeg will ever get mentioned as a big league city, and we all know hockey is grassroots here.

 

[surixon]

Without David Thomson to finance the purchase, the NHL doesn't even sniff Chipman, so you have to give credit where credit is due. Chipman is the guy who had the blueprint for a break even team, which Atlanta was never going to be, but it took a perfect storm of Bettman promising to move Detroit to the East, and no other Western markets ready to purchase a franchise (no arena in Seattle at the time, and Portland's Allen balking at franchise values) and an ownership group in Atlanta that was ready to sue the league to get its franchise moved so that they could sell their other entities. $110 million investment, with $60 million paid to the other NHL owners to grease the wheel, even at $575 million that's a pretty good investment. I just don't believe that $805 million number. The Senators won't sell for that much, and an arena in LaBreton Flats is on the horizon for whoever buys the team, that's prime real estate. Downtown Winnipeg, not so much...

But you're right it's great to be in the NHL, it's the only way Winnipeg will ever get mentioned as a big league city, and we all know hockey is grassroots here.

They are speculating 700 million for the Sens. Also there is no guarante about a downtown Ottawa arena. That will have to negotiated after the fact and we have already seen hiccups on past attempts. After that you will have to see if the government is willing to shell out the half billion to build a new arena and as we've seen in Calgary that is far from a given. My guess is unless the people who purchase the team largely funds it themselves it will have trouble getting off the table.

I think people undervalue how good a setup we have here. The team has a fully owned arena that is likely largely if not fully paid off by this point in the heart of downtown. Not only that but the org owns a significant amount of prime real-estate that they have developed in around the rink. Yes the pandemic put a bit of a damper on this but prior to that our downtown had a lot of positive momentum. If they can recapture that then there will be other economic opportunities.

 

[jetsmooseice]

They are speculating 700 million for the Sens. Also there is no guarante about a downtown Ottawa arena. That will have to negotiated after the fact and we have already seen hiccups on past attempts. After that you will have to see if the government is willing to shell out the half billion to build a new arena and as we've seen in Calgary that is far from a given. My guess is unless the people who purchase the team largely funds it themselves it will have trouble getting off the table.

I think people undervalue how good a setup we have here. The team has a fully owned arena that is likely largely if not fully paid off by this point in the heart of downtown. Not only that but the org owns a significant amount of prime real-estate that they have developed in around the rink. Yes the pandemic put a bit of a damper on this but prior to that our downtown had a lot of positive momentum. If they can recapture that then there will be other economic opportunities.

TNSE managed to build a NHL arena in true Winnipeg form, for the most rock-bottom price possible. I say this somewhat facetiously, but it's true. $133.5 million. It seems like a pittance by today's standards.

But as to franchise valuations, I wonder how much the Jets are worth assuming that the NHL requires the franchise to stay in Winnipeg, as opposed to value if the team could be moved anywhere. I assume those are two very different numbers.

 

[voyageur]

They are speculating 700 million for the Sens. Also there is no guarante about a downtown Ottawa arena. That will have to negotiated after the fact and we have already seen hiccups on past attempts. After that you will have to see if the government is willing to shell out the half billion to build a new arena and as we've seen in Calgary that is far from a given. My guess is unless the people who purchase the team largely funds it themselves it will have trouble getting off the table.

I think people undervalue how good a setup we have here. The team has a fully owned arena that is likely largely if not fully paid off by this point in the heart of downtown. Not only that but the org owns a significant amount of prime real-estate that they have developed in around the rink. Yes the pandemic put a bit of a damper on this but prior to that our downtown had a lot of positive momentum. If they can recapture that then there will be other economic opportunities.

You have to understand that Melnyk was broke trying to leverage whatever he could out of business deals with the city of Ottawa, who were fed up with him. I don't think it's going to be that difficult to hammer out a deal. Ottawa has a very good tax base, and they know they need an arena to keep their franchise.

Calgary is a different animal. People aren't keen to subsidize a new toy for the owners of a big league franchise and by the sounds of it, it's going to be taxpayer leveraged, which can go awry in a hurry (i.e IG Field).

You are right about True North having a good thing, owning their own arena (which is a big difference in how franchises are valued), and capitalizing on downtown real estate. But downtown Winnipeg is going to hell in a hurry, when the big plan is to build more shelters, and have subsidized housing, within blocks of your enterprise, you're kind of butting heads with poverty right in the middle of your pet project. If the Jets were put up for sale, hypothetically, none of that real estate is likely part of the deal, so it's just franchise and arena, do you think that's really worth $200 million less than Vancouver for instance, or Seattle or Las Vegas? Especially with a bargain basement 15 000 seat arena, with only one major tenant drawing income, and no real top dollar performing acts coming through.

 

[surixon]

You have to understand that Melnyk was broke trying to leverage whatever he could out of business deals with the city of Ottawa, who were fed up with him. I don't think it's going to be that difficult to hammer out a deal. Ottawa has a very good tax base, and they know they need an arena to keep their franchise.

Calgary is a different animal. People aren't keen to subsidize a new toy for the owners of a big league franchise and by the sounds of it, it's going to be taxpayer leveraged, which can go awry in a hurry (i.e IG Field).

You are right about True North having a good thing, owning their own arena (which is a big difference in how franchises are valued), and capitalizing on downtown real estate. But downtown Winnipeg is going to hell in a hurry, when the big plan is to build more shelters, and have subsidized housing, within blocks of your enterprise, you're kind of butting heads with poverty right in the middle of your pet project. If the Jets were put up for sale, hypothetically, none of that real estate is likely part of the deal, so it's just franchise and arena, do you think that's really worth $200 million less than Vancouver for instance, or Seattle or Las Vegas? Especially with a bargain basement 15 000 seat arena, with only one major tenant drawing income, and no real top dollar performing acts coming through.

I don't think any of these NHL franchises are worth what they are worth, you are paying massive "good will" amounts on all of them as the value of the actual physical assets you are acquiring are worth nowhere near what is being paid.

Yes the pandemic really hurt our downtown, but imo this isn't just a Winnipeg downtown issue. I'm sure a good many downtowns have been hit hard by it. There is nothing wrong with showing compassion and trying to address the homelessness, addiction and mental health problem of the city's most vulnerable. I'm glad the org is a partner of the outreach groups trying to help.

I still remain skeptical that any government right now given how indebted they are from COVID is going to be willing to write a half billion cheque for an arena. Heck we just elected a mayor that is going to raise property taxes roughly 6% when you include the frontage levy increase.

 

[Buffdog]

Like anything else, an NHL franchise is worth what someone is willing to pay for it

 

[cbcwpg]

Like anything else, an NHL franchise is worth what someone is willing to pay for it

This is what people forget. These "values" are nothing more than numbers thrown at a wall to see what sticks and mean NOTHING unless someone buys the team. And even then, if a team is sold and if the real purchase price isn't to the "little generals" liking, he will just lie and say team X was sold for a value that makes the franchise and the league look good.

The Arizona Coyotes are worthless to any buyer when the NHL mandates that have to stay in the state of Arizona, but if the NHL came out and said the team was for sale and could be moved anywhere, the franchise would have a real value.

And watch when Ottawa gets sold. I guarantee that Bettman will announce a sale value that increases the average team value no matter what the team is actually sold for.

 

[Butch 19]

Not only small but devoid of a single NHL game as a coach or player.

raise your hand if you've never use the word "devoid" in your life.

* crickets *

 

[blueandgoldguy]

The number seem so far off from Forbes, who had the Jets pegged at $575 million last year. Now some of the Jets value is in other business holdings, but if you are talking about Jets and Canada Life Centre, I'm pretty sure they are not worth $100 million less than what Fenway Sports paid for the Pittsburgh Penguins, who are selling out an 18 000 seat rink, with some of the best local TV numbers, and the PPG Paints arena. I guarantee if the Jets were put up for sale, no one is stepping up to pay $805 million for them. The numbers seem skewed. NHL revenues are expect to rise by about $600 million, there is no new TV money, maybe the Jets got a better local deal, but that means squat, not anywhere close to the $230 million discrepancy between Sportico and Forbes numbers. Jets are bottom 7 in revenue earning teams, luckily hockey has taken a hit in California or they would be even lower. When Ottawa goes up for sale, you'll get a better idea of what the Jets are worth, and that's a franchise that has more potential with a downtown arena.

I think it has been proven by others that Sportico numbers are closer to reality than Forbes. In recent years, when franchises in the big-4 have been sold, the estimations by Sportico have been more accurate. Forbes has proven to underestimate the values of pro franchises.

Pittsburgh attendance numbers are deceiving. I remember some playoff games from recent years where there were thousands of seats available a few days before the game and somehow the game would be announced as a sellout. No doubt the team gave away seats to companies for pennies on the dollar to achieve those sellouts which likely means the gate revenue is not as high as anticipated. And as good as their tv numbers are, they would not be as good as a good as the Canadian markets, even a smaller one like Winnipeg.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Without David Thomson to finance the purchase, the NHL doesn't even sniff Chipman, so you have to give credit where credit is due. Chipman is the guy who had the blueprint for a break even team, which Atlanta was never going to be, but it took a perfect storm of Bettman promising to move Detroit to the East, and no other Western markets ready to purchase a franchise (no arena in Seattle at the time, and Portland's Allen balking at franchise values) and an ownership group in Atlanta that was ready to sue the league to get its franchise moved so that they could sell their other entities. $110 million investment, with $60 million paid to the other NHL owners to grease the wheel, even at $575 million that's a pretty good investment. I just don't believe that $805 million number. The Senators won't sell for that much, and an arena in LaBreton Flats is on the horizon for whoever buys the team, that's prime real estate. Downtown Winnipeg, not so much...

But you're right it's great to be in the NHL, it's the only way Winnipeg will ever get mentioned as a big league city, and we all know hockey is grassroots here.

I mean we know this. It is common knowledge that the stars had to align for Winnipeg to acquire an NHL team. Chipman and Thomson deserve credit for fronting the equity to purchase the team which wasn't a surefire moneymaker 11 years ago.

The Senators are worth a lot less than the Jets because 1) their gate revenue has been substantially less than Winnipeg's for a number of years and 2) their arena location 45 minutes or longer drive from Ottawa's core makes it a less desirable and profitable franchise to own. It actually ties into the first point.

 

[ps241]

I think it has been proven by others that Sportico numbers are closer to reality than Forbes. In recent years, when franchises in the big-4 have been sold, the estimations by Sportico have been more accurate. Forbes has proven to underestimate the values of pro franchises.

Pittsburgh attendance numbers are deceiving. I remember some playoff games from recent years where there were thousands of seats available a few days before the game and somehow the game would be announced as a sellout. No doubt the team gave away seats to companies for pennies on the dollar to achieve those sellouts which likely means the gate revenue is not as high as anticipated. And as good as their tv numbers are, they would not be as good as a good as the Canadian markets, even a smaller one like Winnipeg.

I might get a chance to vet the valuations over the next 4 days. My gut tells me you are right in regards to Sportico vs Forbes on this specific topic.

 

[DRW204]

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Like anything else, an NHL franchise is worth what someone is willing to pay for it

The Phoenix Suns are probably gonna sell for 5 billion - Franchise Values are just insane right now.