GDT: Wings vs sabres 7:00 pm et 4/6/19 last game

Konnan511

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5 washed up hockey players, a terrible GM and a pizza place. Catch it before it's canceled this fall!
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If you're looking for a night on the town, well Detroit's hottest club has it all: An energetic 20-something with a lazy eye that will race you with razor blades on his feet, a lumberjack with a beard who will punch you in the face for a large Vodka Soda, a guy who goes by AA but doesn't go to AA, a human Taco, and a tiny person who plays Greek dress up with you for only $5.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

The jersey ad still sucks
Mar 4, 2004
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That Holland is being thrown in with that lot and these comments is fairly embarrassing. Guy is a HHOF and helped contribute to 3 decades of very good Red Wings hockey... I know some of you don't care and won't care but it is this kind of run at Holland that makes me roll my eyes and think of certain portions of our fan-base are as disgraceful as New York Yankee fans... I get we all have different views on things, but man for what he has given to this organization this is a low blow for me even if meant in jest and I really don't think it is anyway.
For me its that the later part of Holland's career are so out of character with the rest of it. It's like he's gotten sentimental in old age and letting that influence his decision making. There's really no rational explanation for the contracts he handed out to Abdelkader and Helm.

It's not that I've forgotten all he's done for the franchise, it's more that I can't believe it's the same guy.
 

Shaman464

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May 1, 2009
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That Holland is being thrown in with that lot and these comments is fairly embarrassing. Guy is a HHOF and helped contribute to 3 decades of very good Red Wings hockey... I know some of you don't care and won't care but it is this kind of run at Holland that makes me roll my eyes and think of certain portions of our fan-base are as disgraceful as New York Yankee fans... I get we all have different views on things, but man for what he has given to this organization this is a low blow for me even if meant in jest and I really don't think it is anyway.

Its more that he's the wrong GM for this situation, he's very good keeping the ship pointed in the right direction. He's not been great at getting an off course ship back to that direction. I was just trying to make a joke.
 

DetroitRed

Crashes the Crease
Apr 7, 2013
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That Holland is being thrown in with that lot and these comments is fairly embarrassing. Guy is a HHOF and helped contribute to 3 decades of very good Red Wings hockey... I know some of you don't care and won't care but it is this kind of run at Holland that makes me roll my eyes and think of certain portions of our fan-base are as disgraceful as New York Yankee fans... I get we all have different views on things, but man for what he has given to this organization this is a low blow for me even if meant in jest and I really don't think it is anyway.
It was supposed to be a hot take. But it's not disgraceful at all because all of us who dislike him as GM now can articulate our reasons for such without having to resort to talking about the long-ago past, unlike those who like him. That's called resting on your laurels. Where that is concerned three guys from that list of five, Abdelkader, Helm and Ericsson also helped contribute to big successes of the long-ago past. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to think freely about them and speak the truth their recent performance.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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It was supposed to be a hot take. But it's not disgraceful at all because all of us who dislike him as GM now can articulate our reasons for such without having to resort to talking about the long-ago past, unlike those who like him. That's called resting on your laurels. Where that is concerned three guys from that list of five, Abdelkader, Helm and Ericsson also helped contribute to big successes of the long-ago past. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to think freely about them and speak the truth their recent performance.

Since he has embraced the rebuild Holland has done well. What is wrong with his last two years in terms of the current build we are doing?

He has a boss, his bosses wanted him to extend the playoff streak. You guys/gals can say you would never do that, you would flush your relationships down the toilet and pout and implore them they were wrong, sell everything. But I don't see that as how anybody would have likely approached that in his situation, similar to the conversation on how he should have stepped aside in 09 it doesn't really have a ton of reality to the take and I get tired of it.

Hey we all have opinions, but he doesn't belong with those other names at all.

By the way paying homage and respect to the long ago past was the first thing the Ilitch's did to change the Wings culture to what it has become. We shouldn't treat guys that are top 10 organizationally in terms of importance in the entire history of the franchise like garbage cut up pucks in my opinion. I think it is time to move on, but Yzerman will inherit a better situation than I thought he would a little bit ago and that is in part to what Holland has done the last three years while people were hunting him and name calling him in every thread.
 
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The Zetterberg Era

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For me its that the later part of Holland's career are so out of character with the rest of it. It's like he's gotten sentimental in old age and letting that influence his decision making. There's really no rational explanation for the contracts he handed out to Abdelkader and Helm.

It's not that I've forgotten all he's done for the franchise, it's more that I can't believe it's the same guy.

I hate those contracts, I hope he learned from them. You cannot be right 100% of the time and I think he thought those guys were solid energy guys he could count on to help a team make the playoffs. Both players have seen their games completely fall off a cliff which is why you shouldn't gamble on that kind of term sans the required talent.

But I think he is steering this thing back in the right direction.

I just get a little mad at some of the Holland sniping I mean sure I disagree with things the man has done. But he put banners in that building, he played a massive part in some of my fondest sports moments and I do think he was given the chance to at least build the foundation of a third different cup winning core. He will need Yzerman to finish it off, but I really do hope he stays around in some capacity if he desires that and Stevie can talk him into that. I think he is a fabulous hockey mind, he might have gotten too conservative and he might have made a few too many mistakes trying to extend that streak, but I get it and the dude isn't somebody I throw a ton of shade towards because I think he earned not being treated like that. He knows more about this game and the industry than anybody posting on this board.
 

DetroitRed

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Since he has embraced the rebuild Holland has done well. What is wrong with his last two years in terms of the current build we are doing?

He has a boss, his bosses wanted him to extend the playoff streak. You guys/gals can say you would never do that, you would flush your relationships down the toilet and pout and implore them they were wrong, sell everything. But I don't see that as how anybody would have likely approached that in his situation, similar to the conversation on how he should have stepped aside in 09 it doesn't really have a ton of reality to the take and I get tired of it.

Hey we all have opinions, but he doesn't belong with those other names at all.

By the way paying homage and respect to the long ago past was the first thing the Ilitch's did to change the Wings culture to what it has become. We shouldn't treat guys that are top 10 organizationally in terms of importance in the entire history of the franchise like garbage cut up pucks in my opinion. I think it is time to move on, but Yzerman will inherit a better situation than I thought he would a little bit ago and that is in part to what Holland has done the last three years while people were hunting him and name calling him in every thread.

Not true. First of all, the rebuild didn't start two years ago. So, if he only embraced (his own!) rebuild two years ago, then he's a bit late to his own party. What you mean is that over the last two years, he's avoided his worst mistakes. He's merely done that: over the last two years, he's finally embraced his own rebuild and avoided his worst mistakes. However, he's not going about things without issues. To answer your question directly, he's giving away, instead of his previous like extra five years on a contract, just an extra year or two. Instead of paying millions more than he should on a single contract, he's paying an extra million too much here and there. It may pail in comparison to how he was, but with a 20-man roster, an extra year too long and an extra million in payroll here and there adds up. It adds up to an extent that the Wings could afford more talent than they have. How long will it take him to learn how to GM in the salary cap era?

That's just one problem he's had over the last couple of years.

Ken was good because he made the Wings one of the first organizations to cast a wide net scouting for prospects. That was good, and for that he deserves credit, but he gets more credit than he deserves. Since basically every other team has been scouting the same way, he hasn't performed all that well in comparison. I mean, we went a decade without a 30-goal scorer. That's not a good recent record, especially when you consider that the Wings have gone about as long or longer without drafting a star defender or goalie. He may not be the worst, but he's not doing well with that lately.

He and Nill were good together. Neither have been very good apart. And Kenny's biggest accomplishments came before the salary cap, which basically means the credit should not go to him but to the ownership who were willing to spend. He should have retired when Babcock left.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Not true. First of all, the rebuild didn't start two years ago. So, if he only embraced (his own!) rebuild two years ago, then he's a bit late to his own party. What you mean is that over the last two years, he's avoided his worst mistakes. He's merely done that: over the last two years, he's finally embraced his own rebuild and avoided his worst mistakes. However, he's not going about things without issues. To answer your question directly, he's giving away, instead of his previous like extra five years on a contract, just an extra year or two. Instead of paying millions more than he should on a single contract, he's paying an extra million too much here and there. It may pail in comparison to how he was, but with a 20-man roster, an extra year too long and an extra million in payroll here and there adds up. It adds up to an extent that the Wings could afford more talent than they have. How long will it take him to learn how to GM in the salary cap era?

That's just one problem he's had over the last couple of years.

Ken was good because he made the Wings one of the first organizations to cast a wide net scouting for prospects. That was good, and for that he deserves credit, but he gets more credit than he deserves. Since basically every other team has been scouting the same way, he hasn't performed all that well in comparison. I mean, we went a decade without a 30-goal scorer. That's not a good recent record, especially when you consider that the Wings have gone about as long or longer without drafting a star defender or goalie. He may not be the worst, but he's not doing well with that lately.

He and Nill were good together. Neither have been very good apart. And Kenny's biggest accomplishments came before the salary cap, which basically means the credit should not go to him but to the ownership who were willing to spend. He should have retired when Babcock left.

How long, well he won a Stanley Cup in the salary cap era and was the last team to miss the playoffs in the salary cap era...

I mean there is a lot wrong here, suffice to say we don't see this issue the same at all and I will admit that is likely impacted greatly by knowing people within the organization and that heavily influencing my opinion on this subject.

The system driving us to the bottom is what it is designed to do. They actually tried to do this as a league to create parity, that he outran it for as long as he did was a miracle.

I actually blame Nill to an extent, his trust in McDonnell was a mistake in my opinion and I am glad he took him with him. I think the biggest blow was really Mike Ilitch handing over Verbeek to Yzerman, that was a pivotal loss if we want to look at it, but they wanted Stevie to do well and instead of promoting him up like they should have they got sentimental and ****** that up big time. It happens again tearing through 30+ years of a guy that is going to the HHOF is going to have bad moments, Lou had a problem in Jersey at the end it is going to happen. The rebuild did start three years ago when they finally missed the playoffs because until that point the streak was important to the Ownership of the team and as such was a goal entering the season and throughout the season. Managing the owners expectations is a part of his job and they weren't authorizing flipping Zetterberg and Datsyuk for futures in 2013 when people make up that the rebuild started. It didn't until we missed the playoffs and to argue otherwise is just wrong, I mean have at it, but the Ilitch family was still in a go for the playoff mode until the streak ended, it mattered to them even if it didn't to a large part of this board.
 

ManwithNoIdentity

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Jun 4, 2016
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That Holland is being thrown in with that lot and these comments is fairly embarrassing. Guy is a HHOF and helped contribute to 3 decades of very good Red Wings hockey... I know some of you don't care and won't care but it is this kind of run at Holland that makes me roll my eyes and think of certain portions of our fan-base are as disgraceful as New York Yankee fans... I get we all have different views on things, but man for what he has given to this organization this is a low blow for me even if meant in jest and I really don't think it is anyway.


That was then, this is now. Are we supposed to pretend he's some symbol of excellence way back when and just act like his salary cap failures don't exist? I mean really. He should not be above criticism, it boggles my mind that some will never stop giving him the benefit of the doubt
 

SimonEdvinssonAtSix

It's possible to commit no mistakes and still lose
Nov 2, 2018
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That was then, this is now. Are we supposed to pretend he's some symbol of excellence way back when and just act like his salary cap failures don't exist? I mean really. He should not be above criticism, it boggles my mind that some will never stop giving him the benefit of the doubt

I can't speak for everyone else, but for me I look at the last 3 years. I see good short term signings, good drafting, development of our youth and selling of vets at the TDL. These are all key in a rebuild.
It can all be undone this offseason with a bad long term signing. But if Holland navigates well and we come out next season without any blunder contracts plus a good draft.... it may be time to at least think about giving him a second chance.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Nov 8, 2011
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That was then, this is now. Are we supposed to pretend he's some symbol of excellence way back when and just act like his salary cap failures don't exist? I mean really. He should not be above criticism, it boggles my mind that some will never stop giving him the benefit of the doubt

Criticism is fine, telling him he can have cut up pucks and placing him next to other whipping boys organizationally is what I was taking issues with.

Seriously how bad has his last three years been in the rebuild? He trades for extra picks, we are playing a lot of young kids, some of which are starting to progress nicely... I mean he isn't doing a ton I don't like, probably the most notable one for me is passing on Hughes and taking Zadina, but that is my opinion and I can wrap my head around why they like Zadina and hope for the best there.

We have some bad contracts it happens, it happened in LA and Chicago, it happens when you win things and the system is designed to sink you back to the league. Again you have to get with the original part of the argument anyway which is basically yeah I don't have a ton of time for keyboard warriors that run a Hall of Fame guy that is one of the best things to ever happen to the Detroit Red Wings. It comes off as childish to me. People can say and do as they like within the rules around here and by all means we are not going to be the same and we did establish it was more a joke anyway. But seriously I do take umbrage with how Holland is treated at times given what he has provided people. I have even said for a while now I am okay turning to somebody else. But what I see is his last generation didn't become what we were hoping. Kindl and Smith didn't continue to develop Filppula and Hudler were not franchise replacements and neither were Tatar and Nyquist. Franzen's health went down the crapper, some things went bad and we were stuck with some of the decisions around that. I wish Helm, Abdelkader and DeKeyser never got their deals but they did. While I don't like that it, I do evaluate him with a full picture. For some of you that don't go for it, but the Ilitch family doesn't view it as nothing nor do the people within the game in terms of what that man has provided this city.

If this was his last season as the big shot caller, I have nothing but gratitude for what that man has done for the Detroit Red Wings.
 

DetroitRed

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Apr 7, 2013
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How long, well he won a Stanley Cup in the salary cap era and was the last team to miss the playoffs in the salary cap era...

I mean there is a lot wrong here, suffice to say we don't see this issue the same at all and I will admit that is likely impacted greatly by knowing people within the organization and that heavily influencing my opinion on this subject.

The system driving us to the bottom is what it is designed to do. They actually tried to do this as a league to create parity, that he outran it for as long as he did was a miracle.

I actually blame Nill to an extent, his trust in McDonnell was a mistake in my opinion and I am glad he took him with him. I think the biggest blow was really Mike Ilitch handing over Verbeek to Yzerman, that was a pivotal loss if we want to look at it, but they wanted Stevie to do well and instead of promoting him up like they should have they got sentimental and ****** that up big time. It happens again tearing through 30+ years of a guy that is going to the HHOF is going to have bad moments, Lou had a problem in Jersey at the end it is going to happen. The rebuild did start three years ago when they finally missed the playoffs because until that point the streak was important to the Ownership of the team and as such was a goal entering the season and throughout the season. Managing the owners expectations is a part of his job and they weren't authorizing flipping Zetterberg and Datsyuk for futures in 2013 when people make up that the rebuild started. It didn't until we missed the playoffs and to argue otherwise is just wrong, I mean have at it, but the Ilitch family was still in a go for the playoff mode until the streak ended, it mattered to them even if it didn't to a large part of this board.
He drafted the guys for that last cup team before other teams were scouting all over the place like Detroit. So, it doesn't apply to him being able to manage in the cap era. That's more about being a global scouting pioneer before the cap. Moreover, if you think about it, if they really knew what they were doing back then, would they really have waited until the sixth and seventh rounds to draft Zetterberg and Datsyuk? Absolutely not. Luck was a part of that.
 
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The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
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He drafted the guys for that last cup team before other teams were scouting all over the place like Detroit. So, it doesn't apply to him being able to manage in the cap era. That's more about being a global scouting pioneer before the cap. Moreover, if you think about it, if they really knew what they were doing back then, would they really have waited until the sixth and seventh rounds to draft Zetterberg and Datsyuk? Absolutely not. Luck was a part of that.

Luck is a part of every good team in the history of sports, it is going to be a big part of when we get good again.

Now if you're inept like how the Ford family runs the Lions then luck cannot save you, but I don't think that is the case with Holland.
 
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Flowah

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Moreover, if you think about it, if they really knew what they were doing back then, would they really have waited until the sixth and seventh rounds to draft Zetterberg and Datsyuk?
Of course they would! They would have known all other 29 team's complete draft list! I'm sure they said to themselves "both these bonafide, elite, future HHOF 1Cs are players no one else will draft. Let's wait until the 6th and 7th round and draft a bunch of players in earlier rounds that won't even make the NHL."

rofl
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

The jersey ad still sucks
Mar 4, 2004
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Luck is a part of every good team in the history of sports, it is going to be a big part of when we get good again.

Now if you're inept like how the Ford family runs the Lions then luck cannot save you, but I don't think that is the case with Holland.
As a Lions fan, I feel a sort of kinship with Ottawa Senators fans.
 
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TheMule93

On a mule rides the swindler
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Sens have actually been super successful overall, they've only missed the playoffs a handful of times since their inception. They've had great teams like their 05-06 team, they took penguins to game 7 2OT of the ECF a few years back
 

DetroitRed

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Sens have actually been super successful overall, they've only missed the playoffs a handful of times since their inception. They've had great teams like their 05-06 team, they took penguins to game 7 2OT of the ECF a few years back
Yeah, hockey fans don't have things too badly in Ottawa, aside from no cup.

I am not ashamed to admit that I am not a Detroit Lions fan. And I don't dislike football. I watch college football (MSU because my daughter is a student there!). I sometimes follow the Tigers and Pistons. I watch a bit of college lacrosse and British Premiere League soccer (Chelsea follower). Curling? Yes! There's really no sport I dislike. However I do not follow the NFL or Lions. Hockey is my favorite because my dad is French Canadian and that's what I was raised on.
 

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