GDT: Wings v Sens 7:30p FSD

[Flowah]

I expect AA back on the 4th line in the next game or two.

Especially with 11F, some guys, like AA, just get double shifted. That's how they're pumping his minutes up right now. If it comes on the 4th line I don't much care as long as he's still getting good minutes elsewhere. He's one of the few players who can generate stuff on his own thanks to his speed.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If you guys/gals don't want Erik Karlsson than I guess I am not that worried about arguing happy points around here. A top five all-time offensive D-man? I mean what are we hoping for here? He is a surefire HHOF.

I guess it puts the complaints on Rasmussen in perspective. I get he has had a bumpy first half, but while playing on a fractured foot he was the second best player in the planet last year, yes above Crosby. I mean if all we want is McDavid it turns out we were not fortunate enough to be tanking at that point and win the lottery. Full stop that is over, the best player in the league the next 10 years cannot be ours. If that is the only thing that will make people happy, then I can see why it won't be happening.

If we are lucky enough that Erik Karlsson is willing to play here and that is his salary demand 11 million or 12 million per then hand him the check immediately. You will gut other parts of your team, but the dude is a generational offensive d-man. You guys/gals want the stupid middle-tier deals gone hand out the big contract.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

What? David Booth and Scott Wilson weren't feeding him?'

No and he wasn't skating to get open very often either.

If we are after honesty here, I see a lot of people (his so called haters) that were throwing a lot of accolades AA's way when he has played the game hard and competed every shift. Still not seeing his biggest fans acknowledging the dude was flat absent for half of the games he played this year. Sure he was dealt tough linemates, hey just imagine if Datsyuk quit when he got broken down Cleary... What a star player would never do that.... I know.

 

[Winger98]

interesting quote
Blashill pointed out that “AA trusts that Larks is going to get him the puck, and so he skates without the puck and goes to open areas. There’s times where I’ve urged AA to skate without the puck in those open areas and he hasn’t as much, he’s waited to get the puck. For whatever reason, he seems to really trust that Larkin is going to lay pucks into areas and he’s going to get them.”

I saw that, too. The clear implication is that AA won't do it with other guys because he doesn't trust them to get the puck there, and he might not be wrong.

 

[obey86]

No and he wasn't skating to get open very often either.

If we are after honesty here, I see a lot of people (his so called haters) that were throwing a lot of accolades AA's way when he has played the game hard and competed every shift. Still not seeing his biggest fans acknowledging the dude was flat absent for half of the games he played this year. Sure he was dealt tough linemates, hey just imagine if Datsyuk quit when he got broken down Cleary... What a star player would never do that.... I know.

No one here has expectations that AA will ever be as good as Datsyuk...he was special and he was good enough to play with Dan Cleary on a regular basis. AA isn't that kind of player (I know you aren't saying he is, i'm just saying that because of that he should be treated differently).

We just want him to play in a role suited for his skillset. That's on a scoring line with talented players around him, not on the 4th line as a 10 min/night grinder. I don't blame AA for being discouraged. I'd be pissed too if I was scoring points and making things happen fairly consistently and then the next game I'm back on the 4th line, like what has happened in previous years.

 

[Winger98]

Datsyuk started on the fourth line and worked his way up by making those fourth lines into something far better than they should have been. Then he was saddled with Cleary and Gator and again made that line far more than it had any right being.

 

[waltdetroit]

My thoughts on why AA gets 4th line time is that he plays C there mostly. Maybe AA asked for C time to make himself more valuable to the team - just a guess. Anyway it does get him face-offs etc

 

[Grimm]

AA needs to just be a winger. What is this big gong show idea about putting him at center. It gives the dude way more responsibility that he doesn't have the IQ or drive for IMO. Putting him on a wing with a speedy guy like Larkin or a puck moving d-man, (if we can get a GREAT one sooner rather than later) he is obviously a more effective player and offensive threat.

Can the center idea. Let him have games like this on the wing. In the future you can have Ras, Larkin, 3C (plenty around), 4C (who cares) with AA, Mantha, Svech (maybe) on the wings. And that Dahlin kid (lol dreaming) on the back end.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

No one here has expectations that AA will ever be as good as Datsyuk...he was special and he was good enough to play with Dan Cleary on a regular basis. AA isn't that kind of player (I know you aren't saying he is, i'm just saying that because of that he should be treated differently).

We just want him to play in a role suited for his skillset. That's on a scoring line with talented players around him, not on the 4th line as a 10 min/night grinder. I don't blame AA for being discouraged. I'd be pissed too if I was scoring points and making things happen fairly consistently and then the next game I'm back on the 4th line, like what has happened in previous years.

I cannot really venture to guess at the last Wings player I saw just gifted ice-time and role like that. I mean there was a point a couple weeks ago where you could argue Frk and not AA has done more with his limited ice-time.

I like Athanasiou's game a ton. He is a dynamic talent. But on the nights when he doesn't want to work then he shouldn't be played and there have been plenty of those this season.

AA has been working his backside off here the last two weeks and guess what his ice-time is through the roof. By the way I am happier that in the last three games he has a standout defensive play in all of them as well. Like Mickey said last night his teammates were all raving about his back-check. I do think with AA it was important for the whole room to see him buy in and play like this.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

AA needs to just be a winger. What is this big gong show idea about putting him at center. It gives the dude way more responsibility that he doesn't have the IQ or drive for IMO. Putting him on a wing with a speedy guy like Larkin or a puck moving d-man, (if we can get a GREAT one sooner rather than later) he is obviously a more effective player and offensive threat.

Can the center idea. Let him have games like this on the wing. In the future you can have Ras, Larkin, 3C (plenty around), 4C (who cares) with AA, Mantha, Svech (maybe) on the wings. And that Dahlin kid (lol dreaming) on the back end.

In a season where I don't think we should care all that much about the standings, I like the 11 forwards. It gives our guys more developmental opportunities. I mean yeah it is tough for Booth, but more minutes for AA and Larkin is good. Having him learn the responsibilities of all three forwards spots is good as well. The Wings have always cross-trained a decent amount, it is one of the reasons they have been successful over the years in my opinion. AA is learning a lot about the game on his shifts both on the wing and at center. When we have a team where we just want to put him in one role, I hope he is out on the wing. But with the goal of making him better down the line I fully endorse this deployment.

 

[Redder Winger]

No and he wasn't skating to get open very often either.

If we are after honesty here, I see a lot of people (his so called haters) that were throwing a lot of accolades AA's way when he has played the game hard and competed every shift. Still not seeing his biggest fans acknowledging the dude was flat absent for half of the games he played this year. Sure he was dealt tough linemates, hey just imagine if Datsyuk quit when he got broken down Cleary... What a star player would never do that.... I know.

Comparing Cleary to Scott Wilson?
Comparing Athanasiou to Datsyuk?

You play Athanasiou a lot and he responds. You play him with skill and he responds.
5-0-1 when he's play 18 minutes or more. 6 goals and 2 assists those games.
Just go through his game log and you see it.

But don't expect that the guy who was reportedly promised you a top 9 role during contract negotiations is suddenly not happy on your 2/3rds of a fourth line.

Guys like Athanasiou need someone with the requisite skill needed to get them the puck.

While I wasn't all that impressed with Athanasiou's play during his slump, it was also frustrating to watch him break out skating 100 mph up the ice and then watch the Red Wings defense chip it up the boards or make the pass across to the other D, forcing Athanasiou to wheel back.
Way too many shifts where he didn't touch the puck. Blame that on him if you want.
But if you find a way to get him the puck, he makes things happen.

Even with that awful slump and lots of time with low skill players, he's third on the team (behind Z and Nyquist) in primary points/60.
Even though he's played far less minutes than many of his teammates, he's drawn a team leading 12 penalties and has a penalty differential of +9 (compared to 0 for Larkin and -7 for Mantha).
He leads the team in individual Corsi for/60 (Athanasiou, Larkin, Mantha are 1-2-3).
He also leads the team in idividual fenwich for/60.
He's second to Nyquist in goals/60.

And this is even though he had an awful drought after getting sent to the fourth line.

Now, you want to see the difference?
From Nov 24 to Dec. 27, AA mostly played on on L4, plus he cycled through the lineup a little bit.

14 games, 0-4-4 -9 playing 13:33 a game
In the five games before that (playing more minutes, often with Larkin or Mantha and Tatar) and the three games since....
8 games 6 goals 2 assists +1 playing 19 minutes and change.

Here's the real big difference
In those 14 games 3 wins 7 losses 4 OT/SOL (3-11)
In those 8 games 5 wins 1 loss 2 OT/SOL (5-3)

 

[Claypool]

My thoughts on why AA gets 4th line time is that he plays C there mostly. Maybe AA asked for C time to make himself more valuable to the team - just a guess. Anyway it does get him face-offs etc

When they roll 11 forwards usually they have AA on the wing on the 2nd line and have him center the 4th line.

 

[waltdetroit]

AA needs to just be a winger. ...Can the center idea. Let him have games like this on the wing. In the future you can have Ras, Larkin, 3C (plenty around), 4C (who cares) with AA, Mantha, Svech (maybe) on the wings. And that Dahlin kid (lol dreaming) on the back end.

On this team, this year, I don't mind that he plays some C, call it part of his education. I agree with you that in the future, when the wings are a better overall team, AA will/should be on the wing

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

When you play hard you are rewarded with ice time. There is a reason we have this debate with AA and Mantha but not Larkin.

AA doesn't just get to have whatever role he hopes, he has to earn it. He got more minutes in those games because he was bringing the requisite effort to get them. Also proving another point when AA is at his best Blashill isn't tethering him to the bench as people like to accuse him of.

He has played bad hockey in more than a few games this year. In those games he wasn't given a whole lot of ice time. He is playing well and he is seeing a ton of it. I don't have a problem with that. What we are hoping is he becomes a player that drives/disrupts play in all three zones. When he is doing that he sees about as much time as Larkin, when he doesn't he gets to sit down. I see nothing wrong with that.

I think it is important long-term if he wants to be a core player that he goes through this. Same with Mantha who has to bring a heck of a lot more for the last month.

 

[Reddwit]

If you guys/gals don't want Erik Karlsson than I guess I am not that worried about arguing happy points around here. A top five all-time offensive D-man? I mean what are we hoping for here? He is a surefire HHOF.

I guess it puts the complaints on Rasmussen in perspective. I get he has had a bumpy first half, but while playing on a fractured foot he was the second best player in the planet last year, yes above Crosby. I mean if all we want is McDavid it turns out we were not fortunate enough to be tanking at that point and win the lottery. Full stop that is over, the best player in the league the next 10 years cannot be ours. If that is the only thing that will make people happy, then I can see why it won't be happening.

If we are lucky enough that Erik Karlsson is willing to play here and that is his salary demand 11 million or 12 million per then hand him the check immediately. You will gut other parts of your team, but the dude is a generational offensive d-man. You guys/gals want the stupid middle-tier deals gone hand out the big contract.

If the stars aligned and we were able to get both Hughes and Karlsson, we'd actually have an identity to build around with Larkin up front: speed and skating, complemented by guys like Cholowski and AA.

 

[Redder Winger]

Datsyuk started on the fourth line and worked his way up by making those fourth lines into something far better than they should have been. Then he was saddled with Cleary and Gator and again made that line far more than it had any right being.

Datsyuk was off of Line4 by November of his rookie year, thanks to Brett Hull.

There was 1 year where Datsyuk played 115 minutes with Cleary and Abdelkader
They played 115 minutes, scored 3 goals and allowed 3 goals

That year, Franzen/Datsyuk/Abby played 151 minutes.
They scored 10 goals and allowed 3.

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abby played 112 minutes
They scored 5 goals and allowed 2.

Bertuzzi Datsyuk Filppula played 59 minutes
They scored 4 goals and allowed 1.

 

[Redder Winger]

If you guys/gals don't want Erik Karlsson than I guess I am not that worried about arguing happy points around here. A top five all-time offensive D-man? I mean what are we hoping for here? He is a surefire HHOF.

I guess it puts the complaints on Rasmussen in perspective. I get he has had a bumpy first half, but while playing on a fractured foot he was the second best player in the planet last year, yes above Crosby. I mean if all we want is McDavid it turns out we were not fortunate enough to be tanking at that point and win the lottery. Full stop that is over, the best player in the league the next 10 years cannot be ours. If that is the only thing that will make people happy, then I can see why it won't be happening.

If we are lucky enough that Erik Karlsson is willing to play here and that is his salary demand 11 million or 12 million per then hand him the check immediately. You will gut other parts of your team, but the dude is a generational offensive d-man. You guys/gals want the stupid middle-tier deals gone hand out the big contract.

I don't want the mid-tier deals.
I just wonder if Karlsson is damaged goods.
His skating is not as good.

WIll it get better?
Well, I think I'd need to see it to believe it before spending $12M/Y.

Let's see who hits the market and what they look like before criticizing people for lining up to give away 12M/Y to a guy who looks a little beat this year.
Because OEL might be there. Doughty might be there. Ellis might be there.

 

[Redder Winger]

When they roll 11 forwards usually they have AA on the wing on the 2nd line and have him center the 4th line.

For a month it wasn't like that.
He was centering line 4 and then riding through the lines, sometimes spelling Mantha, sometimes spelling Tatar. Sometimes Helm.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I cannot really venture to guess at the last Wings player I saw just gifted ice-time and role like that. I mean there was a point a couple weeks ago where you could argue Frk and not AA has done more with his limited ice-time.

I like Athanasiou's game a ton. He is a dynamic talent. But on the nights when he doesn't want to work then he shouldn't be played and there have been plenty of those this season.

The Wings win when AA plays a lot because AA plays a lot when he is working hard and playing well.

 

[Dotter]

Athanasiou's skating with the puck is about as good as Fedorov.
His game away from the puck is nowhere near as good.
His slapshot is not as good.
His passing is not as good.
But his skating with the puck and ability to get behind the defense for great scoring chances? As good or better than Fedorov.

That's just a ridiculous comment. Please don't go spewing that crap over on the mainboard, you'll get slapped around by the knowledgeable folks. Actually, why don;t you go make a poll thread on the main board, that'll make for some good Friday entertainment.

 

[Redder Winger]

That's just a ridiculous comment. Please don't go spewing that crap over on the mainboard, you'll get slapped around by the knowledgeable folks. Actually, why don;t you go make a poll thread on the main board, that'll make for some good Friday entertainment.

Too bad you can't wrap your head around a simple concept.
I'm not saying Athanasiou is Fedorov reincarnate. But in terms of stickhandling at high speed, he's every bit as as good as Fedorov.

If he had Fedorov's defense, Fedorov's passing, and Fedorov's slapper to go along with his speed/moves, he'd be a Hall of Fame talent.

 

[Redder Winger]

The Wings win when AA plays a lot because AA plays a lot when he is working hard and playing well.

Athanasiou only played a lot because Mantha was injured.

Read the reporters who cover the team.
Bertuzzi was going to Line 1. Mantha was going to go to line 2, but then he got hurt.

Red Wings' Gustav Nyquist finding net, Tyler Bertuzzi making impact

Mantha ready; lines impacted?
Anthony Mantha expects to return to the lineup Wednesday against Ottawa after missing two games with a groin injury.

How will it affect lines? Mantha had been practicing on the line with Dylan Larkin and Tomas Tatar before getting hurt. He’ll probably return to that unit. That would bump Andreas Athanasiou back down to the fourth-line center spot.

Mantha leads the team with 13 goals but must be more engaged, after struggling in December (one goal, one assist in 10 games). He’s registered no shots in three of his past five games and just three total during that stretch. It is one of the reasons he was replaced by Bertuzzi as the net-front presence on the second power-play unit.

So the only f***ing reason AA is playing on line 2 instead of line 4 is an injury.

Tyler Bertuzzi was getting put on Line 1 while Athanasiou was on Line 4 for f***s sake.

 

[Dotter]

Too bad you can't wrap your head around a simple concept.
I'm not saying Athanasiou is Fedorov reincarnate. But in terms of stickhandling at high speed, he's every bit as as good as Fedorov.

If he had Fedorov's defense, Fedorov's passing, and Fedorov's slapper to go along with his speed/moves, he'd be a Hall of Fame talent.

*if* that, *if* this. *if* games are fun.

Facts are AA is not on Fedorov's level of stickhandling at high speed (or any speed for that matter). One was elite and HHOF, other is good who is pro0ving he deserves a raise less than what he probably expects.

Mind boggling you are trying to spew this non-sense.

 

[Winger98]

Datsyuk was off of Line4 by November of his rookie year, thanks to Brett Hull.

There was 1 year where Datsyuk played 115 minutes with Cleary and Abdelkader
They played 115 minutes, scored 3 goals and allowed 3 goals

That year, Franzen/Datsyuk/Abby played 151 minutes.
They scored 10 goals and allowed 3.

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abby played 112 minutes
They scored 5 goals and allowed 2.

Bertuzzi Datsyuk Filppula played 59 minutes
They scored 4 goals and allowed 1.

we're looking at the same season where Jurco-Sheahan-Tatar was essentially our second line for a long stretch, right? Yeah, that Datsyuk-cleary-Gator line was better than it had any right being. They were playing every difficult match-up, and Datsyuk was carrying them and not letting them get buried on a nightly basis.

And I don't think Bowman would really care what Hull wanted if he didn't think Datsyuk wasn't playing well enough to handle that spot. Datstyuk got off line4 as quickly as he did because he worked every night and he was clearly earning it. It's not something Athanasiou has done for any extended stretch.

All of that said, Athanasiou deserves to stay in the top9 right now, and Mantha being healthy shouldn't change that. I still think the problem is Blashill is locked onto this idea of a match-up third line with Helm-Nielsen-Gator, which is going to throw someone onto the fourth line regardless, and Bertuzzi has already cemented his spot next to Z.

I'd bust up that third line and try to run three scoring lines and a defensive fourth line.