OT: Will women ever play in the NHL?

[Roughneck]

A 2 game sample size means absolutely zero. Really not worth commenting on. The fact they scored 10 and 12 goals in both games tells me about all I need to know about the games themselves. I am really not sure what the point is here, as I never said that the best group of female players in the world was better than any group men. My point is that the gap is shrinking.

Wow.

10 wins-12 losses in the 2005-06 centralization period, 12 wins-19 losses in the 2013-14 centralization period against Alberta Midget AAA teams.


So in relation to what is the gap shrinking?


EDIT: I decided I should also look at the 2009-10 centralization series and it seems they did much better that time around. 20 wins and 11 losses.

No, most of the examples are not men's professional leagues, most are semi-professional but I also never said they were pro leagues, so I am not sure what your point is there?

Because then it doesn't matter. The number of players on Canada's national team who played men's hockey at any point growing up has gone DOWN since Nagano because they don't need to play in men's leagues anymore (and don't want to). We might as well include all the women who play in some higher end beer leagues if we're counting the second French division or Eredivisie (or "ENL") as anything worth talking about.

Since google is beyond your reach here are some quickly found examples, there are lots, all these are pre 2008:

Hayley Wickenheiser - Salamat

The only legitimate example of a skater playing in a semi-professional league based on merit.

Christine Duchamp - Hockey Club de Cergy-Pontoise

2 games in a second tier French league. Nothing since.

Michelle Karvinen, Rødovre and Finland's national team

Was going to play for them, didn't because she would have lost her NCAA eligibility.

Angela Riggerio - Tulsa Oilers

One game publicity stunt to play with her brother in a professional game.

Molly McMaster played for Adirondack Frostbite, Missouri River Otters, Quad City Mallards, Richmond Riverdogs, Roanoke Valley Vipers, Rockford IceHogs, Danbury Trashers, Flint Generals, Motor City Mechanics and Port Huron Flags of the United Hockey League. (mostly a 'stunt').

Mostly? It was a cancer fundraiser.

Shannon Szabados - goalie played in mens leagues at various levels. Grant MacEwan College Griffins Mens Hockey

While Szabados has the most diverse group of men's leagues on her resume, she would represent the sixth team Canada goalie to have played for one (Rheaume played a QMJHL game and a scattering of minor pro games, Sami Jo Small played on the Stanford men's team, Lesley Reddon played CIS, Kim St. Pierre played CIS, Charline Labonte played QMJHL).

In fact this is the first time in the over 20 year history of the women's national team that a goalie hasn't played men's college, junior or senior hockey as Genevieve Lacasse went from Midget AAA to women's NCAA. The end of an era.

Though the "next in line" for Canada did play in the AJHL as well before going to Harvard.

Angela Taylor - One of the top scorers in the ENL

Let's not go nuts, the scoring list doesn't go past 100 and she's still doesn't crack it (or top 100 English players. Or top 100 English forwards). Her 17 points were good enough to retire with as well, evidently.

While most of these leagues are semi-pro or high level amateur clubs, if you look back more than 20 years, there are pretty much zero examples of this in any well recognized league.

This is a pretty generous use of "recognized league". We also seem short on a lot of 'post-2008' examples, likely coinciding with the realization of being 'the first woman to play in...' for the sake of it not really being a thing people care about.

 

[MarkGio]

Can't we all agree that if Wickenhesier can't even get to Swedish elite, that womens hockey is way way behind mens hockey?

Firstly its the pool of players, second is that there isn't as good of a developmental structure for junior female leagues.

Thirdly, physiology doesn't favor them in this current environment.

Teams have to allow you to try out. There's a possibility that the Swedish Elite did not allow her to try out because she was a women. Likewise, teams can be nasty. On Wickenhesier's wikipedia, it said she had a left a team because it wasn't a good fit. There's no doubt in my mind these women have other challenges to overcome playing in a men's league that are outside the pure game of hockey and its skill.

And I dunno about you, but I've seen women body builders. Besides, nobody has provided any science; we're assuming they're at a physiological disadvantage in this sport.

 

[Hand of Gaudreau]

Teams have to allow you to try out. There's a possibility that the Swedish Elite did not allow her to try out because she was a women. Likewise, teams can be nasty. On Wickenhesier's wikipedia, it said she had a left a team because it wasn't a good fit. There's no doubt in my mind these women have other challenges to overcome playing in a men's league that are outside the pure game of hockey and its skill.

And I dunno about you, but I've seen women body builders. Besides, nobody has provided any science; we're assuming they're at a physiological disadvantage in this sport.

An NHL team is about chemistry, and I think every team would have concerns about the chemistry within a group where 1 person, who likely isn't even the best player, or a star player, getting special treatment just because that person is a girl. She may even be a skilled player, but players would argue that refs would likely ref her easier, as she is going to be easier to push around, but is she wasn't reffed easier she would be so banged up in pre-season alone, I doubt she'd make it to the regular season, just because players would want her gone, as she brings an imbalance to the game.

The only way I think a girl ever makes the NHL as unlikely as that already is, is if she could be a star. The NHL will never allow a female fringe player, it has got to be someone who can make a serious impact on a team, that can also hold her own physically, which I think is next to impossible.

I know men and women are capable of the same things, when talking about ordinary humans, but NHL players are not ordinary humans, even the worst NHLers were excellent junior players, and even the very best female hockey players are worse than the majority of junior players. There just is no comparison between even a fringe NHLer and the most elite female hockey player.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Wow.

10 wins-12 losses in the 2005-06 centralization period, 12 wins-19 losses in the 2013-14 centralization period against Alberta Midget AAA teams.


So in relation to what is the gap shrinking?


EDIT: I decided I should also look at the 2009-10 centralization series and it seems they did much better that time around. 20 wins and 11 losses.



Because then it doesn't matter. The number of players on Canada's national team who played men's hockey at any point growing up has gone DOWN since Nagano because they don't need to play in men's leagues anymore (and don't want to). We might as well include all the women who play in some higher end beer leagues if we're counting the second French division or Eredivisie (or "ENL") as anything worth talking about.



The only legitimate example of a skater playing in a semi-professional league based on merit.



2 games in a second tier French league. Nothing since.



Was going to play for them, didn't because she would have lost her NCAA eligibility.



One game publicity stunt to play with her brother in a professional game.



Mostly? It was a cancer fundraiser.



While Szabados has the most diverse group of men's leagues on her resume, she would represent the sixth team Canada goalie to have played for one (Rheaume played a QMJHL game and a scattering of minor pro games, Sami Jo Small played on the Stanford men's team, Lesley Reddon played CIS, Kim St. Pierre played CIS, Charline Labonte played QMJHL).

In fact this is the first time in the over 20 year history of the women's national team that a goalie hasn't played men's college, junior or senior hockey as Genevieve Lacasse went from Midget AAA to women's NCAA. The end of an era.

Though the "next in line" for Canada did play in the AJHL as well before going to Harvard.



Let's not go nuts, the scoring list doesn't go past 100 and she's still doesn't crack it (or top 100 English players. Or top 100 English forwards). Her 17 points were good enough to retire with as well, evidently.



This is a pretty generous use of "recognized league". We also seem short on a lot of 'post-2008' examples, likely coinciding with the realization of being 'the first woman to play in...' for the sake of it not really being a thing people care about.

In all your rambling you entirely missed my point, please go read through my posts again, we aren't even arguing the same topic at this point.

 

[TheHudlinator]

I think it will probably happen one day but until there is a better league for women I don't think it will happen. Even watching the Olympics the hockey is very sloppy, if they were given the same kind of chances and development that the men get I could see a few women being able to make it. But I don't know if/when a better development league will become available.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

I think it will probably happen one day but until there is a better league for women I don't think it will happen. Even watching the Olympics the hockey is very sloppy, if they were given the same kind of chances and development that the men get I could see a few women being able to make it. But I don't know if/when a better development league will become available.

They need better and more leagues from pee-wee right on up to professional. Unfortunately that can't happen over night.

The biggest issue is the talent level and player development. Right now, the women are probably 100 years behind the men. It will take a generation to build a solid foundation never mind approaching the same competitive level.

Size matters not, look at someone like Martin St. Louis (5' 8", 180 lbs) and compare him to Natalie Spooner, who is the same size. If she had the same ability, I don't see a reason she couldn't play in the NHL.

One thing I can be pretty certain of, the first female NHL player will be from Canada. Or maybe China - because if they ever decide they want to be good at this hockey thing, look out.

 

[MarkGio]

They need better and more leagues from pee-wee right on up to professional. Unfortunately that can't happen over night.

The biggest issue is the talent level and player development. Right now, the women are probably 100 years behind the men. It will take a generation to build a solid foundation never mind approaching the same competitive level.

Size matters not, look at someone like Martin St. Louis (5' 8", 180 lbs) and compare him to Natalie Spooner, who is the same size. If she had the same ability, I don't see a reason she couldn't play in the NHL.

One thing I can be pretty certain of, the first female NHL player will be from Canada. Or maybe China - because if they ever decide they want to be good at this hockey thing, look out.

Absolutely. And the problem with creating development leagues is audience and support. Can grass roots happen when there is a demand for a competing, more entertaining men's league? Moreover, we need supply. We need to get away with the stigma that women should be active in steretypical roles. A mother/father would much rather see their little girl in a tootoo than in a tracksuite pushing other girls/guys around.

I look at how hard it is to grow a legit league. Take leqcrosse: a physical and entertaning league that's affordable, accessible, and played at a high level. Its a cross between soccer and hockey, but its still not a major league sport, and likely won't be a major league sport for some time.

 

[Roughneck]

In all your rambling you entirely missed my point, please go read through my posts again, we aren't even arguing the same topic at this point.

You argued that the gap is shrinking. Which isn't really something that can be measured, especially when you 'didn't specify groups'. What gap is shrinking?

You also mentioned something about needing better female development leagues for a woman to play in the NHL, which just doesn't matter and I'm not sure why it keeps getting repeated. How would that help?



With no hitting until Pee Wee, there shouldn't be any separation really until then. I'd argue that we should get rid of separating gender below Bantam altogether if improving female hockey and skillsets are the goal. Greater concentration of talent, higher exposure to coaching, etc.

After hitting gets introduced, I would have to ask why anybody would think that the path for a female player trying to make the NHL would be to go to a female development league and not to an NHL development league?

People are suggesting that the path to equality of gender at the top is to separate everybody at the bottom not based on skill, but by gender and then expecting everything to end up at the same place when it hasn't happened with other sports. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[YMCMBYOLO]

Personally, I would try to develop the game in mens leagues first. Once we get that down, THEN we can focus on women's hockey.

 

[Beats By CoRD]

It all boils down to the hitting, and most importantly - THE FIGHTING.

Will the female not be allowed to get hit? Of course not. But guys will be afraid to hit her. A bad hit causing injury to the first woman in the NHL is a career ruiner. So nobody wants to hit her but she can hit? This chicks gonna be running around with immunity? And what about fighting? Lucic is gonna drop the gloves and pummel her face in?

Come on guys. You think it's not impossible? You think maybe one day?

NEVER

GOING

TO

HAPPEN

 

[YMCMBYOLO]

^ fighting would be banished before women would be allowed/good enough to play in the NHL.

 

[Beats By CoRD]

^ fighting would be banished before women would be allowed/good enough to play in the NHL.

Cool where can I buy one of those crystal balls?

Still doesn't answer the hitting question.

 

[Up the Irons]

no .

 

[Nordberg]

It all boils down to the hitting, and most importantly - THE FIGHTING.

Will the female not be allowed to get hit? Of course not. But guys will be afraid to hit her. A bad hit causing injury to the first woman in the NHL is a career ruiner. So nobody wants to hit her but she can hit? This chicks gonna be running around with immunity? And what about fighting? Lucic is gonna drop the gloves and pummel her face in?

Come on guys. You think it's not impossible? You think maybe one day?

NEVER

GOING

TO

HAPPEN

I think you are being really short sighted. Neither of us can know how gender equality has progressed in 30-50 years. Everything you said is entirely based on the current common perception that men have of women.

 

[tfong]

Women's hockey game is at the very least one generation behind if the top countries in women's are beaten by highschool teams. Realistically were probably talking aabout a 20-30 year gap in ability levels.