Post-Game Talk: Wild @ Jets • Mon Sep 22 • 7PM • MTS Centre • "Hockey's Back!"

[Jetabre]

I thought Bogo played pretty well too. More so in the first half of the game though. Couldn't get any of his shots on net though.

 

[SensibleGuy]

Bogo was fine. Solid as a rock.

 

[Guerzy]

Yeah, well there isn't much Thorburn can do if the refs are going to tie him up and then watch while Ehlers gets punched around for 30 seconds...

I think regardless of the refs holding Thorburn, that roughing on Ehlers was going to happen whether Thorburn being on the ice or not. Thorburn wasn't being tied up by the refs for the entire duration of Ehlers getting roughed up a bit.

 

[Gump Hasek]

The myriad of comments that Lowry needs to show more offense are amusing. He is a prospect trying out for a bottom-six role; his job as such today is to provide energy, to be physical, chip in offensively if possible (he nearly scored), and most importantly to be on the right side of the puck at all times - meaning to play defensively. They aren't looking for him to prove much of anything to them offensively right now; they want to see if he can be in the right spot on the ice at all times. In other words, the determinant that many of you seem to wish to apply to him, "that he needs to provide more offense", is not really much of a determinant as to whether or not he wins a job today. They want to know that he can play defensively (which he does) as NHL management personnel know and preach that offense eventually comes from that sort of play.

Have a great day!

 

[SensibleGuy]

I think regardless of the refs holding Thorburn, that roughing on Ehlers was going to happen whether Thorburn being on the ice or not. Thorburn wasn't being tied up by the refs for the entire duration of Ehlers getting roughed up a bit.

Sure, fair enough. So what needs to happen is that our big guys need to throw some hits and get a bit physical with guys taking liberties with our guys. It's not really about jumping in and gooning a guy right away since you'll just get a penalty anyway...

but it's still annoying when the ref ties Thor up while some guy is pounding Ehlers...

 

[Guerzy]

Its not about deterrent. That is a fallacy and one that people who don't care for fighting like to use

It is about you and your teammates and how you feel as a group. Thorburn is on the ice so Ehlers can do what he needs to do and know that he has someone out there that can and will stand up for him

I used to go into PA back in the late 80s. They had Mike Modano. But you didn't care about that. You cared about the collection of some of the biggest,scariest guys you could ever play against. Darin Kimble,Reid Simpson,Dean Kolstad,Shawn Byram and Rich Pilon. People got the PA flu all the time in the 80s. I can't tell you the effect that has a player or group of players. We were scared before the game started.

Well, I do care for fighting, so I am not using the "deterrent" as a fallacy. I do think there is a time and place in the game for it, I love it. I am just saying by Thorburn being on the ice, it did not stop the opposing teams players from giving Ehlers the "rough stuff", which many use as an argument.

I do agree with you here Joe in regards to the mindset. Players can feel more comfortable with a big, strong guy on the line that can chuck knuckles, especially a rookie like Ehlers --- I totally get that. But at the same time it isn't and doesn't "stop" opposing teams from going at Ehlers (example here) physically and roughing him up.

As for the the 80's, certainly, the same name of game went for Tie Domi in junior. Players would go into the game worried about the opposing teams big, mean, nasty, tough guy. Tie would stand up in the room and tell the boys not to worry about it, he'll handle it and that will be that. And, he would. And, that would be that. The rest of the game carried on out and the elephant in the room was taken care of.

... but, fast forward 25-30 years and I do think things have changed in that regard, approach and mindset of the game.

 

[Guerzy]

Sure, fair enough. So what needs to happen is that our big guys need to throw some hits and get a bit physical with guys taking liberties with our guys. It's not really about jumping in and gooning a guy right away since you'll just get a penalty anyway...

but it's still annoying when the ref ties Thor up while some guy is pounding Ehlers...

Agree. Team toughness goes a long way, especially when you can roll 4 lines. And, I like the amount of team toughness we have, be it from Ladd, Kane, Byfuglien, Slater, Stuart, Bogosian, etc. I do think we can take care of ourselves as a team.

 

[Senorsmooth]

After the 23rd page of comments and posts, It seems as if there were several Jets games on last night with several versions of the same players. Petan looked like a veteran or Petan needs a couple more years, Lowry is Keith Primeau's clone or a big, slow clunky hulk who has never experienced scoring a goal, Morrissey is the smoothest skater, makes everything look easy or was a tiny junior player. And Ehlers is Patrick Kane's Danish Doppelganger now or he looked scared, tired and skinny. Bias bleeds out a little more easily after 200 posts, it seems. One game, my friends. One game.

 

[Sweech]

Well, I do care for fighting, so I am not using the "deterrent" as a fallacy. I do think there is a time and place in the game for it, I love it. I am just saying by Thorburn being on the ice, it did not stop the opposing teams players from giving Ehlers the "rough stuff", which many use as an argument.

I do agree with you here Joe in regards to the mindset. Players can feel more comfortable with a big, strong guy on the line that can chuck knuckles, especially a rookie like Ehlers --- I totally get that. But at the same time it isn't and doesn't "stop" opposing teams from going at Ehlers (example here) physically and roughing him up.

As for the the 80's, certainly, the same name of game went for Tie Domi in junior. Players would go into the game worried about the opposing teams big, mean, nasty, tough guy. Tie would stand up in the room and tell the boys not to worry about it, he'll handle it and that will be that. And, he would. And, that would be that. The rest of the game carried on out and the elephant in the room was taken care of.

... but, fast forward 25-30 years and I do think things have changed in that regard, approach and mindset of the game.

Exactly this. I think fighting needs to stay in the game. It's just the element of it and the nature of team toughness have now changed. These guys who can only score a dozen points and yet get around 100 penalty minutes a season are fairly worthless on the ice. They don't actually make your team tougher anymore. As what they're doing isn't hockey anymore it's just a sideshow.

We have a strong core of team toughness throughout the lineup without having to ice the likes of Thorburn and Peluso.

 

[Guerzy]

The myriad of comments that Lowry needs to show more offense are amusing. He is a prospect trying out for a bottom-six role; his job as such today is to provide energy, to be physical, chip in offensively if possible (he nearly scored), and most importantly to be on the right side of the puck at all times - meaning to play defensively. They aren't looking for him to prove much of anything to them offensively right now; they want to see if he can be in the right spot on the ice at all times. In other words, the determinant that many of you seem to wish to apply to him, "that he needs to provide more offense", is not really much of a determinant as to whether or not he wins a job today. They want to know that he can play defensively (which he does) as NHL management personnel know and preach that offense eventually comes from that sort of play.

Have a great day!

My line of thinking is from a development standpoint. I am fine with where Lowry is today and he could very well be being told take care of your defensive responsibilities and let that be that. But, I do think he could be better served with a bit more AHL time to further develop his offensive game. A more developed and well-rounded Adam Lowry is better for everybody.

Brandon Sutter came in to Carolina as a rookie in a checking role and scored 1 goal in 50 games. He was then sent down to the AHL to further develop his game. He did so, and ended up being recalled shortly after the season began the following year and scored 21 goals and 40 points in 72 games, in the same checking role he didn't succeed in a year prior. Giving him that extra time to season and branch out his game did wonders for him. Sure, he could have stayed with Carolina as a rookie and continued on in a checking line role with minimal offensive contributions, but what was best for everybody, including Brandon Sutter, was further developing the rest of his game.

Nothing wrong with furthering the development and giving a young player seasoning to be a more well-rounded player and bring more to the table. Lowry has the tools to see his game branch out to a potential 3rd line role where he can chip in offensively, but he may suffer a bit even in a checking role just as Sutter did if he is here and not in the AHL where he would be a go-to player offensively and could round out and further develop that area of his game.

 

[Whileee]

Reflecting a bit more....

Morrissey seemed to do exactly as he does when he starts at a new level. He played a safe game, very few mistakes, very good mobility, solid first passes with good vision, including an absolutely beautiful cross-ice stretch pass to Petan.

Petan was solid all over the ice. He didn't look out of place at all. I really liked the fact that we had a PP that actually knew how to manage and move the puck (one PP with Petan, Frolik and Ehlers with Morrissey at the point was encouraging).

Lowry has an impressive physical presence and good straight-ahead speed. He also seems to position himself well, so he he is frequently on the right side of the puck. I can see that Maurice will be very interested in having his size and strength up front.

Ehlers looked like he was trying too much and doesn't have much experience playing in a pro style game. It will be interesting to see how quickly he catches on. I'm not too concerned about his size and strength. He'll always struggle against larger players physically, but will need to learn how to use his quickness and smarts to maneuver around the ice and in the corners.

Now I'm looking forward to see what progress Scheifele and Trouba might make this season. Signs seem to point towards a step forward from Scheifele, and Trouba looked like the real thing last year.

Scheifele, Trouba, Lowry, Morrissey, Petan, Ehlers... I think we're starting to see the beginnings of some change in the core with signs that each of these draftees have NHL potential. If one or two more of their draft picks end up contributing to the NHL that will be a pretty good haul from their first 4 drafts.

 

[Jet]

And, for what it's worth, Ehlers was getting pushed around and roughed up a bit and Thorburn was on the ice. So, I didn't see any deterrent there, to be honest.

Just proof positive that policemen do not work in the NHL.

I can't tell you how many times Hemsky would come down the wall, Regher would absolutely bomb him and then cross check him in the neck, punch him in the face.

Oh, but George Laraque would give him a stern talking to.

Then Regher would do it again next shift. Even when McIntyre was the 'enforcer' this was happening.

I don't see the Jets skill guys get it as bad as the Oilers top players did, because we have guys up and down our lineup who are tough. Our skill guys are also tough. That is what you need.

Jettison Thorburn and plug in Petan. Not necessarily to play the 4th line but add some skill to the team. Thorburn does not add anything to this team, it's so obvious.

Sorry GJF.

 

[Whileee]

Ehlers best player on the ice are you serious?

Both him and Petan need bounce back games badly.

Lowry looked great.

I agree that Ehlers needs a "bounce back" game, but I thought that Petan was very solid.

In fact, I think that when the coaches dissect the tape from that first game, they'll be very pleased with both Morrissey and Petan. They did a lot of smart things on the ice and both of them created some scoring chances.

 

[Jet]

Its not about deterrent. That is a fallacy and one that people who don't care for fighting like to use

It is about you and your teammates and how you feel as a group. Thorburn is on the ice so Ehlers can do what he needs to do and know that he has someone out there that can and will stand up for him

I used to go into PA back in the late 80s. They had Mike Modano. But you didn't care about that. You cared about the collection of some of the biggest,scariest guys you could ever play against. Darin Kimble,Reid Simpson,Dean Kolstad,Shawn Byram and Rich Pilon. People got the PA flu all the time in the 80s. I can't tell you the effect that has a player or group of players. We were scared before the game started.

You are romanticizing a time gone by. Yes, there was a time like that. That's why a guy like Dave Semenko was so important to the Oilers. You could easily see by the middle of Gretzky's career though there was a change. He started getting roughed up more and more. Guys were willing to sacrifice some pain for the gain of targeting the teams best players. Then they brought in the instigator rule.

This 'comfort' etc. you say players feel when an enforcer on the ice just isn't there any more. These guys know more than any one of us what the deal is in the NHL and how ineffective these guys are. You don't think they don't see time after time a skill guy get abused and the enforcer do nothing about it?

Then you add in the fact that Thorburn couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag. I'd bet there are 3 or 4 guys on the Jets not named Peluso who could beat Thorburn up. He's useless.

Maybe still in junior hockey there is a bit of the protectionist feeling from players, especially when we are talking about slight 16 year olds coming in to play against 6'4" 220lb 20 year old overagers. In the NHL it is a totally different story and has been that way for a long time.

Finally, you are trying to somehow connect the dots that people who don't want a roster spot wasted on a face puncher somehow are against fighting. I'd say a large majority of us think fighting is an important part of hockey.

Your theory is completely antiquated.

 

[Jet]

The myriad of comments that Lowry needs to show more offense are amusing. He is a prospect trying out for a bottom-six role; his job as such today is to provide energy, to be physical, chip in offensively if possible (he nearly scored), and most importantly to be on the right side of the puck at all times - meaning to play defensively. They aren't looking for him to prove much of anything to them offensively right now; they want to see if he can be in the right spot on the ice at all times. In other words, the determinant that many of you seem to wish to apply to him, "that he needs to provide more offense", is not really much of a determinant as to whether or not he wins a job today. They want to know that he can play defensively (which he does) as NHL management personnel know and preach that offense eventually comes from that sort of play.

Have a great day!

I'd bet though that the decision for him to stay is really up in the air and I think that what people are saying is if he wants to play himself onto the roster, he has to contribute offensively.

Playing a really good, defensive game will most likely get him a check mark, and might get him an extended look, but if he can do that AND chip in he will give himself a much better chance for success.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

You are romanticizing a time gone by. Yes, there was a time like that. That's why a guy like Dave Semenko was so important to the Oilers. You could easily see by the middle of Gretzky's career though there was a change. He started getting roughed up more and more. Guys were willing to sacrifice some pain for the gain of targeting the teams best players. Then they brought in the instigator rule.

This 'comfort' etc. you say players feel when an enforcer on the ice just isn't there any more. These guys know more than any one of us what the deal is in the NHL and how ineffective these guys are. You don't think they don't see time after time a skill guy get abused and the enforcer do nothing about it?

Then you add in the fact that Thorburn couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag. I'd bet there are 3 or 4 guys on the Jets not named Peluso who could beat Thorburn up. He's useless.

Maybe still in junior hockey there is a bit of the protectionist feeling from players, especially when we are talking about slight 16 year olds coming in to play against 6'4" 220lb 20 year old overagers. In the NHL it is a totally different story and has been that way for a long time.

Your theory is completely antiquated.

I don't think its antiquated but Cyclical. Hockey is returning to what it was pre expansion before the Broad street bullies changed hockey. It is going back to an era when you had to be able to do more then just fight or hit.

But that era was also filled with some very violent non fighting hockey play as well. The league is defining "comfort" for players not the players themselves. Eventually like all things that will change as well.

 

[garret9]

I enjoy fighting. A lot. Both when I played and watching as a fan.

I can understand how fighting can be useful at times.

I still say Thorburn is a waste and doing nothing on Ehlers line.

 

[ps241]

Lots of interesting feedback today..... So my 2 cents.

Split squad type games are so tough because they are a hybrid of elite junior, AHL, and NHL talent. What the boys faced last night would be a long way away from what it will be like to play an NHL game vs. all NHL players during the regular season. Didn't Scheif bag 4 points as an 18 year old in an NHL split squad game?

Now that I have that out of the way I found the game up tempo and really entertaining. It was just nice to put the kids to bed after the baths and come back downstairs to the man cave and watch a freaking Jets game again.

To the on Ice action:

Rookie report youngest to oldest.

2014 Ehlers: looked like it was his first game in the NHL. Lots to like and I will save the final report card until after all his preseason games. Let PMo make the adjustments, coach up Nik, and tweak his line mates, then let’s see how Nik adapts the next 2 or 3 games. I have always felt he was a long shot this season but there is no better way to learn than to get thrown into the deep end.

2013 Petan: Very nice looking game he definitely didn't look like he was in over his head last night. I am interested to see how the balance of the preseason plays out but he seems to play a smart, mature game in all zones.

2013 Morrissey: For my money he was our best prospect last night. I guess some were expecting more but any time I watched him I was really impressed with his decision making ability. Josh's talent to process the play, make the correct read, and instantly convert the smart simple play to advance the puck was 2nd only to Enstrom last night. I know people might want guys to flash a bit more but that will come. I was also really impressed with his D zone coverage. Making it look that easy on D while being paired with Ellerby is a pretty big accomplishment. The only issue might have been QoC.....didn't watch close so I am not sure how sheltered he was but he made moving the puck look pretty easy last night and that is really tough to do.

2011 Lowry: Adam has really progressed nicely in the past 12 months. I think his skating has come a long way, he makes good reads, and plays the body very well. In a pinch he could probably play sheltered in the NHL and I think he could adapt and grow into that role. That being said I will see how the preseason plays out but I would much rather see him play a top 6 role on the Ice Caps and be leaned on for scoring. I think there may be more to Adam's ceiling than a 4th line energy, banger and crasher and my fear is that if we bring him up now it will rob him of a development opportunity. Either way I would like to see him get some looks in the NHL when and if injuries dictate.

This crop of prospects is pretty nice. It was more fun watching them last night than it has been in the past 3 preseason’s. Lots to look forward to.

Perreault was a really good pick up......so much better than Olli.

I thought Bogo was ok? Zach is who he is and we saw all of it on display last night. I quite enjoyed his big hit on Gogol who was running around a bit.

LLF >>>>> LLB

I am a Buff fan but I am not sold on him as a forward. I hope PMo can figure how to best utilize him because he is a very talented player.

micro sample size alert but I really liked the puck movement on the PP's last night. I enjoyed the glimpse of the 2nd unit with Bogo, Morrissey, Ehlers, Petan, (forget who the 5th guy was). highly skilled group of kids moving the puck around. I would salivate to see Morrissey, Trouba, Ehlers-Kossy, Scheif, and Petan as a unit. I also like Perreault on the 1st unit.

A few lingering thoughts

1) Wish Nic Petan could play in the AHL
2) Sure hope we get Fro extended because he is such a great asset.
3) Very fun to watch our goalies both have a solid outing.
4) Ladd and Little are such good hockey players.

 

[Whileee]

Opinions sure seem divided on Bogosian's play last night.

I was quite impressed with what I saw relative to last year. He stepped up and made a few nice breakups in the neutral zone, and had some strong rushes. What stood out most was that his skating seemed to be back to where it was a few years ago. I'm not sure if he was playing hurt or too bulked up last year, but he was lacking that usual smoothness in his stride.

That's what I saw from Bogo, too. Later in the game he showed a bit of lead in his legs, which can be expected since he's been working hard in camp and played a lot of minutes. I liked the pairing with Enstrom.

Regarding the helmet punchers, I think it's quite clear that a Maurice-coached team is going to try to have at least one in the line-up for at least some of the games. The Blues have brought in Bissonnette to add to Reaves. I'm not sure how necessary it is, but I just don't see Maurice wanting to go with too many small players up and down the line-up. That's why I think Lowry might be an important addition, though maybe not right out of camp.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

I enjoy fighting. A lot. Both when I played and watching as a fan.

I can understand how fighting can be useful at times.

I still say Thorburn is a waste and doing nothing on Ehlers line.

I would rather see Peluso there but I personally believe PoMo likes Thorburn.

 

[garret9]

I would rather see Peluso there but I personally believe PoMo likes Thorburn.

Maybe, tough to tell with what coaches say and what they really think.

He quoted a game where Thorburn was out shot 14-3 and were pinned in 5 times (only sustained pressure effectively once) as a good game. Thorburn scored the winning goal, which he mentions, but ignored the fact that it was basically an open net shot due to the hard work of Trouba.

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2014...ets-paul-maurice-and-building-the-fourth-line

Whether he likes him or not, I still say Thorburn is terrible and useless.

 

[Guerzy]

That's what I saw from Bogo, too. Later in the game he showed a bit of lead in his legs, which can be expected since he's been working hard in camp and played a lot of minutes. I liked the pairing with Enstrom.

Regarding the helmet punchers, I think it's quite clear that a Maurice-coached team is going to try to have at least one in the line-up for at least some of the games. The Blues have brought in Bissonnette to add to Reaves. I'm not sure how necessary it is, but I just don't see Maurice wanting to go with too many small players up and down the line-up. That's why I think Lowry might be an important addition, though maybe not right out of camp.

Looking forward to the day where potentially both Lowry and Lipon are in our bottom 6.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

You are romanticizing a time gone by. Yes, there was a time like that. That's why a guy like Dave Semenko was so important to the Oilers. You could easily see by the middle of Gretzky's career though there was a change. He started getting roughed up more and more. Guys were willing to sacrifice some pain for the gain of targeting the teams best players. Then they brought in the instigator rule.

This 'comfort' etc. you say players feel when an enforcer on the ice just isn't there any more. These guys know more than any one of us what the deal is in the NHL and how ineffective these guys are. You don't think they don't see time after time a skill guy get abused and the enforcer do nothing about it?

Then you add in the fact that Thorburn couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag. I'd bet there are 3 or 4 guys on the Jets not named Peluso who could beat Thorburn up. He's useless.

Maybe still in junior hockey there is a bit of the protectionist feeling from players, especially when we are talking about slight 16 year olds coming in to play against 6'4" 220lb 20 year old overagers. In the NHL it is a totally different story and has been that way for a long time.

Finally, you are trying to somehow connect the dots that people who don't want a roster spot wasted on a face puncher somehow are against fighting. I'd say a large majority of us think fighting is an important part of hockey.

Your theory is completely antiquated.

Agree 100%.

It's a different game now. Back then it was more law of the jungle, and the game was played at a MUCH slower pace. You could get away with having a plodding goon in your lineup that could take care of guys who got overzealous with the stickwork or with high hits.

I'm more than happy to have a guy who can throw them, with one important caveat: he can actually play! Being able to roll four lines is more important than ever, and it's a total detriment to your team when you dress some fighter that can't play a lick in the name of "protection".

 

[Channelcat]

Its not about deterrent. That is a fallacy and one that people who don't care for fighting like to use

It is about you and your teammates and how you feel as a group. Thorburn is on the ice so Ehlers can do what he needs to do and know that he has someone out there that can and will stand up for him

I used to go into PA back in the late 80s. They had Mike Modano. But you didn't care about that. You cared about the collection of some of the biggest,scariest guys you could ever play against. Darin Kimble,Reid Simpson,Dean Kolstad,Shawn Byram and Rich Pilon. People got the PA flu all the time in the 80s. I can't tell you the effect that has a player or group of players. We were scared before the game started.

How can you forget Dave Manson? Yes those were scary teams and they definately had a "Raiders" persona, but that has certainly changed in the CHL. I think fighting remains more prevalent in the pro game than the junior game now.

I like Thorburn and Peluso alot! But I don't really think either of them have a place on this team anymore. I know AP has been getting plenty of good press following his work with GRoberts, but the underlying problem is that the skill level just isn't there. Thorburn actually has decent speed, shot etc, but just doesnt have that natural ability to see the ice and contribute offensively. Solution? Maybe keep Peluso in the press box till needed?

 

[Guerzy]

[randomnote]I am having fun talking hockey again. It's nice to have the Jets back and the season beginning. I like our team. I like our young players. [/randomnote]