Who would you start your team with?

[BigBadBruins7708]

Gordie Howe and Bobby Orr

or

Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux

So, what we have here is the chance to start an all time team with two of the Big 4. I don't want to make this into a poll as it's not a popularity contest. I'd like an in-depth discussion on which pair you'd pick to start your team, and more importantly why (please don't just say "because they're better". If you'd like, even fill out the rest of the team (it would be more fun if a person with the other pair was drafting against you, but oh well). Thanks.

Howe and Orr, pretty easily.

the 2nd/3rd best forward to ever play and I can couple it with far and away the greatest defenseman to ever play? that's unbeatable balance.

 

[SealsFan]

Howe and Orr. No explanation or analysis. That's just who I'd pick...

 

[Panthera]

I definitely take Howe and Orr here. Having a star (or THE star) defenseman to build around and a star forward trumps having two centers, even if the centers are roughly as good themselves. I'd take the forward/dman pairing over Gretzky/Lemieux even if you lowered the caliber of player a bit. Gretzky/Lemieux still leaves you needing to figure out your defense (and goaltending but that's obvious for both pairs), Howe/Orr gives you a great start on your forward and defense group, especially since Howe and Orr being versatile two way players gives you freedom on who else to add, they can help to an extent be the defensive conscience for any one-way offense types you add, or be the offensive drivers for a more defensive squad (the latter being preferable probably, but it's nice to have options when building a team). Gretzky and Lemieux limit you a bit more to needing guys to pick up the defensive duty they don't handle so well. Obviously as a GM your biggest problem with either is the chance you'll celebrate your good fortune a little too hard and end up hurting yourself, but I like the Howe/Orr pair better.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Just wondering:

Is there anyone who didn't see Orr play that picked Orr/Howe?

and

Is there anyone who saw Orr play that picked Gretzky/Lemieux?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I take Gretzky and Lemieux.

Both options are, of course, delicious to think about.

Gretzky was so much better then anyone else any tipping point leans to him being on any team that I'm going to start.

I see it as :

Gretzky


















Howe/Orr/Lemieux [random order]


People can disagree but this is my stance.

I disagree.

 

[Killion]

Just wondering...

Ya... ya I'm wondering too.... who would you pair with Howe upfront, best Center & Winger to nullify Gretzky or Lemieux individually & whomever their playing with, including naming Orr's partner, fully integrated 5 man unit.... I'm thinkin Dave Keon at Center, Bobby Hull on the Left Wing, Denis Potvin paired with Orr, Sawchuk in the crease. That'd pretty much take care of Gretzky & his little playmates..... and for Mario & whomever he's paired up with... got some real special treats in store for that one as well....ya..... bring it on Whiners....

 

[Thenameless]

Ya... ya I'm wondering too.... who would you pair with Howe upfront, best Center & Winger to nullify Gretzky or Lemieux individually & whomever their playing with, including naming Orr's partner, fully integrated 5 man unit.... I'm thinkin Dave Keon at Center, Bobby Hull on the Left Wing, Denis Potvin paired with Orr, Sawchuk in the crease. That'd pretty much take care of Gretzky & his little playmates..... and for Mario & whomever he's paired up with... got some real special treats in store for that one as well....ya..... bring it on Whiners....

I'd like to see you finish this and give us the top two lines for both teams and the top two defensive pairings.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I'd like to see you finish this and give us the top two lines for both teams and the top two defensive pairings.

Tell us who gets to choose the fifth player and the order on down.

 

[Thenameless]

(I literally tossed a coin for this)

Gretzky and Lemieux team picks 5th. Howe and Orr team picks 6th and 7th, then 2 picks per side thereafter.

 

[Killion]

I'd like to see you finish this and give us the top two lines for both teams and the top two defensive pairings.

Be going pretty far off topic if we did that.... Keep it simple, keep it to the op's question. The problem of course is that he grouped 2 Centers together and unless you wanna move Lemieux to the Wing it necessitates the construction of not just one more line but two including defensive pairings... and then why stop there? Add a 3rd line, another Defensive pairing, a backup goalie... Coach & Assistants, Trainers, Directors of Player Personnel, Scouts, GM, Owners.... lets get some graphic & fashion designers involved, jerseys, uni's.... Referee's, Linesman.... what about equipment; all tube skates & woodies; no helmets... ha? See what I'm sayin?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Be going pretty far off topic if we did that.... Keep it simple, keep it to the op's question. The problem of course is that he grouped 2 Centers together and unless you wanna move Lemieux to the Wing it necessitates the construction of not just one more line but two including defensive pairings... and then why stop there? Add a 3rd line, another Defensive pairing, a backup goalie... Coach & Assistants, Trainers, Directors of Player Personnel, Scouts, GM, Owners.... lets get some graphic & fashion designers involved, jerseys, uni's.... Referee's, Linesman.... what about equipment; all tube skates & woodies; no helmets... ha? See what I'm sayin?

And with these two centers, you need two wingers that can play defensively as centers as well as be able to take faceoffs.

 

[Killion]

And with these two centers, you need two wingers that can play defensively as centers as well as be able to take faceoffs.

Ya, I'm afraid the premise, selection in pairing Lemieux with Gretzky is flawed. Thats the makings of 2 lines right there, not one, whereas with Orr & Howe, youve got the makings of a proper cigarette. Some tobacco and a paper. Smokin. Smoke anyone thrown atcha pretty much. Lots of flexibility given the breadth & depths of prime peak Howe & healthy Orr's talents who could handle any line or back end playing with Gretzky or Mario Lemieux. Make for a great game, 5 on 5, full 60 minutes. Lets see Wayne withstand the physicality of that little Marathon as the game progresses without respite, time to rest on the bench & exhausted, fagged, begins to make mental errors.... or Mario.... take away his Camel Lights.... DuMauriers... be nothing left of him but a brown, green, red & yellow puddle on the ice when Denis Potvin who I'd pair with Orr caught him with his head down crossing the blue-line gasping for breath mid way through the 2nd....

 

[Thenameless]

Actually, I put the flaw there on purpose, because I knew the names (and obviously the talent that comes with these names) would still make people think twice about picking the other pair. Being the OP, I wouldn't really consider it off-topic Killion. I really enjoy your input on this kind of stuff. Not just run-of-the-mill pick the next best available player. You have an "opinion" and you've seen a lot of these guys in action - maybe have a better idea of who would and wouldn't work well together.

I really would like to see how these teams would develop for at least the top 20 on each side, and even better if it's the top 30. Would the 2 GM's stick to classic positions, or maybe go "center-heavy" like past Team Canada's as it seems to be the position with the most talent. Can you the G/L team make up the defensive/well-roundedness gap? Can the H/O team make up for losing the two best offensive centers in history?

 

[Jim MacDonald]

I think this is Orr-Howe fairly easily. Reason being you have a forward and a defenseman (arguably the best two at each position). With Gretz and Super Mario they are both forwards. It's really as simple as that, two of the best at different positions on the ice with different responsibilities.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

To clarify, you'd take Ted Kennedy and Steve Yzerman over Gretzky and Lemieux...?

Good example of Yzerman's defence vs. Gretzky at 2:50 in this clip:



But anyway, my answer to this kind of question would always depend on context -- mainly, the rest of the team I'm building. Like, if I already have Messier and Bourque on the team, then I'm taking Gretzky and Lemieux every time. But if I'm starting from scratch with only these two elite players and a bunch of scrubs to round out the line-up, then I might take Howe and Orr (assuming longevity and so on).

The ideal situation, really, would be Howe and Gretzky or Orr and Gretzky (or one of them and Lemieux).

Although it ways painful in some parts, I did appreciate watching this seeing 18 year old Stevie Y dangle a little (the play on the Reed Larson goal was cool) and hear the announcers talk about Jimmy D and Nick Polano being excited about their pick!

 

[Killion]

Actually, I put the flaw there on purpose, because I knew the names (and obviously the talent that comes with these names) would still make people think twice about picking the other pair. Being the OP, I wouldn't really consider it off-topic Killion. I really enjoy your input on this kind of stuff. Not just run-of-the-mill pick the next best available player. You have an "opinion" and you've seen a lot of these guys in action - maybe have a better idea of who would and wouldn't work well together.

I really would like to see how these teams would develop for at least the top 20 on each side, and even better if it's the top 30. Would the 2 GM's stick to classic positions, or maybe go "center-heavy" like past Team Canada's as it seems to be the position with the most talent. Can you the G/L team make up the defensive/well-roundedness gap? Can the H/O team make up for losing the two best offensive centers in history?

Thanks for the kind words however putting together a lets say, Top 2 Teams of All Time is a fairly monumental task.... and I'd go real Old School about it, limited to a 14 Man Roster per side with 3 Forward Lines, 2 Defensive Pairings, 1 Goalie, none of this "Honorable Mentions" or "In Reserve, in case of injury" stuff. Also, a Bench Boss; Coach. Just 1. No Assistants.... Having Gretzky & Lemieux on the same team would be neither intimidating nor an insurmountable challenge, they could & would be if not entirely stopped at least made to appear mortal, managed & contained given the depth of talent available to Team Howe/Orr.

Ive already listed who I'd pair with Howe in Dave Keon & Bobby Hull, Denis Potvin with Bobby Orr, so obviously I'd need to add another Defensive Pairing, any one of whom could maybe also be a Utility Player & moved up to Wing/Center on the PK... and I'd also get to pick 2 more Lines, Centers, Left & Right Wingers, a Coach.... With Team Gretzky/Lemieux, I need one more complete line, 2 sets of Defencemen, complimentary Left & Right Wingers for 99 & 66, a Goalie and a Coach.... In doing this, every player considered obviously peak; available, every single player whoever laced them up in the NHA, the PCHA, the NHL & Internationally over the last 125 odd years.

.... so yes, yes nameless... tad monumental... well beyond the scope of this thread as its titled.... morphing into a Monster young fella but then that cool too.... like to see ambition... pushing the envelope.... so ok... you first.... g'head... lets see what ya got.

 

[Thenameless]

Okay Killion, I have picked up your gauntlet. Using your format, but with the addition of a back-up goalie (3 forward lines and 2 defensive pairings). I picked goalies last arbitrarily, not because they are worth less. Orr/Howe team gets first pick of coach to help balance things out.

5: (Gretzky/Lemieux): Doug Harvey (they desperately need the next best defenseman)
6/7: (Orr/Howe): Beliveau/Bobby Hull (they need the next best center, then take the most outstanding left winger)
8/9: Rocket Richard/Eddie Shore (not too hard here)
10/11: H. Morenz/D. Potvin (take the best player of the first half of last century and one of the best peak defensemen of all time)
12/13: Ovechkin/R. Bourque (denial play here, can't let the other side have the Golden Jet & Ovechkin on left wing)
14/15: Jagr/Red Kelly (this is nice as Kelly can play forward for flexibility, though I'm not sure you'd want to with only 4 D-men)
16/17: Guy Lafleur/Bobby Clarke (Lafleur would look fantastic with either Gretzky or Lemieux, and Bobby Clarke is a defensive conscience up front to start the third line)
18/19: Mikita/Ted Lindsay (we know what Terrible Ted can do with Howe, and so could free up Bobby Hull for another line to split up the scoring)
20/21: Valeri Kharlamov/N. Lidstrom (2 Russian left wingers on the one team, go figure. And a rock stead D-man to soak up those attacks from the other side)
22/23: Bossy/Robinson
24/25: Cyclone Taylor/F. Mahovlich (The Rover to play right wing on the third line)
26/27: Dickie Moore/Hasek
28/29: P. Roy/T. Sawchuk
30/31: J. Plante/Scotty Bowman
32: Toe Blake

Team A

Bobby Hull/Jean Beliveau/Jaromir Jagr
Ted Lindsay/Howie Morenz/Gordie Howe
Dickie Moore/Stan Mikita/Mike Bossy

Bobby Orr/Denis Potvin
Red Kelly/Larry Robinson

Dominik Hasek/J. Plante

Scotty Bowman

Team B

Ovechkin/Gretzky/M. Richard
Kharlamov/Lemieux/Lafleur
F. Mahovlich/Bobby Clarke/Cyclone Taylor

Doug Harvey/Eddie Shore
Ray Bourque/N. Lidstrom

P. Roy/T. Sawchuk

Toe Blake

 

[bobholly39]

Ya... ya I'm wondering too.... who would you pair with Howe upfront, best Center & Winger to nullify Gretzky or Lemieux individually & whomever their playing with, including naming Orr's partner, fully integrated 5 man unit.... I'm thinkin Dave Keon at Center, Bobby Hull on the Left Wing, Denis Potvin paired with Orr, Sawchuk in the crease. That'd pretty much take care of Gretzky & his little playmates..... and for Mario & whomever he's paired up with... got some real special treats in store for that one as well....ya..... bring it on Whiners....

I kind of took the questions more as "who do you start a random NHL team with" as opposed to an "all-star all-time team". I think if you're adding all-time greats on each roster, i changes the question a bit in terms of who you pick to start the team.

I still have trouble with the idea of passing up on 2 #1C's with the way the game is played today.
And Orr - as fantastic as he was, clearly the best D ever by far - haven't more defensemen since adopted his style of play? I don't know that if you place Orr in the NHL in 2018 (with whatever equipment/health adjustments you want to include to make it fair) he stands out all that much from guys like Karlsson, Doughty, etc. I have no doubt he'd be the best of the bunch by a good margin - but by as much as he is better than them in an all-time sense? I have my doubts. I think 99 & 66 stand out more.

And a Winger's impact on the game is more limited in today's NHL - even if your winger is Gordie freakin' Howe.

I've always felt that Lemieux/Gretzly/Orr are the 3 biggest x-factors in NHL history. You add them - at their best - to any NHL team, and they can potentially win a cup almost by themselves, with proper luck/fortune. Slightly moreso than Howe.
And I think Orr would be most diminished in today's NHL compared to 99 & 66 simply because so many defenders took after him, that I think he might stand out a bit less. Which is why for me 99 ^ 66 seem like the better choice.

Finally - last point. If we are picking an All-Star team vs just a regular team with a duo to start - I still don't think I want to pick against Gretzky. Gretzky was the best player in every single season, playoff and tournament he played in during his prime, he always stood out. Nobody else can say the same. So in an all-star playoff/tournament setting - I have no doubt Gretzky would be the best player/scorer on both teams. Even Orr can't say the same, where in some playoffs/tournament he didn't stand out as much as Gretzky did.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Okay Killion, I have picked up your gauntlet. Using your format, but with the addition of a back-up goalie (3 forward lines and 2 defensive pairings). I picked goalies last arbitrarily, not because they are worth less. Orr/Howe team gets first pick of coach to help balance things out.

5: (Gretzky/Lemieux): Doug Harvey (they desperately need the next best defenseman)
6/7: (Orr/Howe): Beliveau/Bobby Hull (they need the next best center, then take the most outstanding left winger)
8/9: Rocket Richard/Eddie Shore (not too hard here)
10/11: H. Morenz/D. Potvin (take the best player of the first half of last century and one of the best peak defensemen of all time)
12/13: Ovechkin/R. Bourque (denial play here, can't let the other side have the Golden Jet & Ovechkin on left wing)
14/15: Jagr/Red Kelly (this is nice as Kelly can play forward for flexibility, though I'm not sure you'd want to with only 4 D-men)
16/17: Guy Lafleur/Bobby Clarke (Lafleur would look fantastic with either Gretzky or Lemieux, and Bobby Clarke is a defensive conscience up front to start the third line)
18/19: Mikita/Ted Lindsay (we know what Terrible Ted can do with Howe, and so could free up Bobby Hull for another line to split up the scoring)
20/21: Valeri Kharlamov/N. Lidstrom (2 Russian left wingers on the one team, go figure. And a rock stead D-man to soak up those attacks from the other side)
22/23: Bossy/Robinson
24/25: Cyclone Taylor/F. Mahovlich (The Rover to play right wing on the third line)
26/27: Dickie Moore/Hasek
28/29: P. Roy/T. Sawchuk
30/31: J. Plante/Scotty Bowman
32: Toe Blake

Team A

Bobby Hull/Jean Beliveau/Jaromir Jagr
Ted Lindsay/Howie Morenz/Gordie Howe
Dickie Moore/Stan Mikita/Mike Bossy

Bobby Orr/Denis Potvin
Red Kelly/Larry Robinson

Dominik Hasek/J. Plante

Scotty Bowman

Team B

Ovechkin/Gretzky/M. Richard
Kharlamov/Lemieux/Lafleur
F. Mahovlich/Bobby Clarke/Cyclone Taylor

Doug Harvey/Eddie Shore
Ray Bourque/N. Lidstrom

P. Roy/T. Sawchuk

Toe Blake

So you are using the ATD approach as opposed to a team building approach. Fair enough.

Regardless. Once the 5th pick is Harvey,next two for the Orr/Howe team become the perceived 3rd and 4th best defencemen. Probably Bourque and Potvin. Now Gretzky / Lemieux team has a critical decision.

 

[blogofmike]

Once the 5th pick is Harvey,next two for the Orr/Howe team become the perceived 3rd and 4th best defencemen. Probably Bourque and Potvin. Now Gretzky / Lemieux team has a critical decision.

Not really. If the other side sells out on defense when there are 4 defenders to be taken, it's a pretty simple tactical move to get the best forwards available (or goaltender if you really think there's significant separation between the guys at the top - which I don't). Running Doug Harvey and defenders 6-8 is fine. I might try to snag Slava Fetisov and leave the last 2 defenders until the end - but getting "stuck" with the worst defenders isn't a huge deal. Harvey plus 2-3 of Fetisov/Robinson/Stevens/Pronger/Lidstrom/Kelly is still competitive for this exercise.

Given that Lemieux can be a winger, Team 99-66 can even take 2 centres to make sure they win the middle. From a team building perspective, Beliveau as a #2C and whoever you'd pick as a #3C could be whoever you want to face the least (I guess you'd have a soft spot for Henri Richard?) but passing up on the best non-Howe winger would be a waste.

Gretzky
Lemieux
Hull - Beliveau -?

Harvey-

VS

Howe

Orr - Bourque
Potvin - ?

 

[Killion]

Okay Killion, I have picked up your gauntlet....

.... Aha.... as I expected.... you took the ATD route in order of rankings, skimming the cream off the top when youve got a whole dairy to choose from, so we have a collection of excellent individuals who no doubt would come together as a "Team" however my approach somewhat different in that I'd select players who have already proven to be complimentary to one another. Bonded through playing together, fought wars together & won not just individually but collectively. Know each other inside out. Defensive pairings not so much as you have a somewhat different dynamic going on but even still, I'd be picking units, duos & trios (up-front)...

Team A

Hull / Gretzky / Kurri
Jagr / Lemieux / Stevens
Kharlamov / Petrov / Mikhailov

Robinson / Savard
Lidstrom / Rafalski

Plante
Parent

Scotty Bowman

... when I get a chance, put together my full rather than just a
top line & defensive pairing, Team B, Howe & Orr pre-selected.

 

[Iapyi]

Ya, I'm afraid the premise, selection in pairing Lemieux with Gretzky is flawed. Thats the makings of 2 lines right there, not one, whereas with Orr & Howe, youve got the makings of a proper cigarette. Some tobacco and a paper. Smokin. Smoke anyone thrown atcha pretty much. Lots of flexibility given the breadth & depths of prime peak Howe & healthy Orr's talents who could handle any line or back end playing with Gretzky or Mario Lemieux. Make for a great game, 5 on 5, full 60 minutes. Lets see Wayne withstand the physicality of that little Marathon as the game progresses without respite, time to rest on the bench & exhausted, fagged, begins to make mental errors.... or Mario.... take away his Camel Lights.... DuMauriers... be nothing left of him but a brown, green, red & yellow puddle on the ice when Denis Potvin who I'd pair with Orr caught him with his head down crossing the blue-line gasping for breath mid way through the 2nd....

Just curious how a hypothetical posed as a generic question can be flawed? The flaw is making to many assumptions and over thinking a straight forward either/or question.

 

[Killion]

.... alrighty then....

TEAM B

Howe / Abel / Lindsay
Gillies / Trottier / Bossy
Gainey / Sanderson / Houle

Orr / Stevens
Potvin / Harvey

Sawchuk
Brodeur

Toe Blake

.... now, I know I said "no honorable mentions" or "spares on the bench" or whatever, but the fact is one could easily put together Teams' C/D/E/F/G & so on, and you'd be hard pressed to predict a winner be it an 8 game series or 40-60-82 game Regular Season followed by Playoffs. There are just that many great players & lines, individual d-men & defensive pairings & Goalies to choose from including the modern era with guys still playing (who I left out because of that).... Punch Line.... The French Connection line.... The Stastnys.... Triple Crown... LCB.... Legion of Doom etc etc etc...

.... ditto with Defenders & Goalies.... quite a few brilliant Coaches to be choosing as well.... from Art Ross to Anatoli Tarasov & yes even his Growling, Menacing Black Eminence... Viktor..... Viktor Tikhonov.... on & on & on.... A veritable flood, cornucopia, Aladdins Cave of riches from which to choose.... and yes, I feel badly, guilty to have left so many greats off & out.... Maurice & Henri Richard... Bill Gadsby.... the entire Kraut Line.... Bill Durnan & Frankie Brimsek.... Dave Keon.... Guy Lafluer etc etc etc... This is why I dont like doing stuff like this, going through such exercises...

 

[Killion]

Just curious how a hypothetical posed as a generic question can be flawed? The flaw is making to many assumptions and over thinking a straight forward either/or question.

......................... ........................ ........................ .................... ...................................... Carry on.

 

[VanIslander]

Gillies The Trio Grande line was BEFORE the Isles dynasty... please, please, some one document game by game, season by season how UNIMPORTANT Gillies was to the Stanley Cup years!!!

(or else one day I'll have to bother to do so.)