Who would you start your team with?

[Thenameless]

Gordie Howe and Bobby Orr

or

Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux

So, what we have here is the chance to start an all time team with two of the Big 4. I don't want to make this into a poll as it's not a popularity contest. I'd like an in-depth discussion on which pair you'd pick to start your team, and more importantly why (please don't just say "because they're better". If you'd like, even fill out the rest of the team (it would be more fun if a person with the other pair was drafting against you, but oh well). Thanks.

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[VanIslander]

This is so ATD (all-time draft) thinking... we've been through that many times over the years.

Check out the ATD subboard. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/forums/all-time-draft.181/

My opinion on the matter: If you assume others are building teams, then forego Gretzky and Lemieux because there are plenty of great centers in hockey history, whereas the dropoff in topend talent for the other two positions is more stark. Orr was so far above all but a handful of defensemen that it is wise to select him, and dmen play more minutes per game and he immediately gives you a topend transition game and special teams units. But then again, Orr is injury prone, and that has to be a consideration. Howe is the most solid option for my money. There are only a half dozen right wingers that are anywhere near him, and while building a team from a winger is not ideal, Howe is a complete player, Bowman saying he could do everything (including play defense - and let's not forget Gordie was a goaltender as a youngster because he simply was bigger than every other kid his age) and his TWENTY (20) consecutive NHL seasons of top-5 scoring is just the sort of rockbed offensive any new franchise would love to count on. Plus, if we are not assuming all all-time greats will be selected, that instead we are picking only ONE player from the past to time travel to the present to found a new NHL franchise in today's NHL, then Gordie would be unstoppable.



EDIT: I just realized you are suggesting picking a pair! As a GM of a new NHL franchise, I ain't passing up Howe and Orr as a tandem for any other combination. It's hard enough for half the teams in the NHL to find a franchise #1 defenseman, let alone a Bobby Orr. And talented centers are easier to draft, as there are so many more of them, and Gordie played his career with Abel at center, then Delvecchio, and those kind of great centers are easier to find (not to knock them, they did put together HHOF careers).

 

[BenchBrawl]

Orr and Howe.I get a top defenseman and a top forward.

I get more physicality and more defense.Less offense, but still more than a team needs really.

 

[Thenameless]

Thanks VanIslander and BenchBrawl, I was hoping you guys would chime in.

VanIslander, while we do know what they did from today's point of view, we are still drafting them at around 18 years old. If we are drafting them into today's game, Bobby Orr might not be injury prone, or at least as injury prone (I'm not sure, but it seemed like more people went for the knees back in the day). Also, anything can happen in this future. Maybe it's Gretzky/Howe that have the shortened careers, etc. Of course, I'd still bet on Howe to have the longest and most consistent career, the guy is a thoroughbred, but nothing is guaranteed.

 

[FerrisRox]

I get that that Howe and Orr give me an excellent forward and an excellent defender and the other pair gives me a redundancy, but even still, I take Gretzky and Lemieux.

 

[bobholly39]

Gretzky and Lemieux.

Put either duo on a team full of AHL'ers (or mediocre/to average players) and what do you get?

1. Orr/Howe team. Well, they can score goals of course since both Orr and Howe are great at offense, but only up to a certain amount. Orr/Howe aren't as good at offense as other 2, and Orr plays at D so he can't even score that many himself. They're both dependent on quality teammates to score enough. Orr/Howe combo will be better at defense than the other duo - but does it matter? They don't play the whole game, and the opposite team can just score a bunch on the rest of the AHL roster.

2. Gretzky/Lemieux? Ok well defense will suck if we put a bunch of AHL'ers on their team. Moreso than Orr/Howe team. So they get scored on a lot. But offense? Yeah they'll score a ton, and they'd likely be able to outscore any team. Put them on the same line with an AHL winger? They still both top 200 points a year, and find ways to ensure their team outscores the opposition enough every night to win playoffs/championships.

 

[Thenameless]

Thanks bobholly39, that's an interesting take on things. It could actually be somewhat realistic in today's NHL environment, as both pairs would eat up a lot of a team's salary cap. Never mind max deals for guys like Crosby and McDavid - these 4 are guaranteed to break the bank. One phenomenon though is that great players attract other great players that are Cup hunting at the end of their careers, and are willing to take undervalued contracts to do so.

 

[Puck Dogg]

With Howe and Orr I would have two positions to build with. I would have leadership and skill. Toughness when required. With Gretzky and Lemieux I'd have two all- time greats who happen to play same position. Ice time wise both would suffer with their production. I think with Howe and Orr you'd get better overall package to start team with than lucrative Gretzky- Lemieux combination.

 

[JMCx4]

... while we do know what they did from today's point of view, we are still drafting them at around 18 years old. If we are drafting them into today's game, Bobby Orr might not be injury prone, or at least as injury prone (I'm not sure, but it seemed like more people went for the knees back in the day). ...

I couldn't find a description of every knee injury Bobby Orr suffered during his career, but those I could find were due to collisions with no clearly intent to injure or failures of previous surgical repairs under the stress of hockey skating conditions. Secondly and as this Hockey News article from 2008 points out, turning back the clock to allow Orr to start his pro career in the 21st Century would offer him far less invasive surgical solutions (and thus less traumatic & more easily recuperable) that would very likely extend his career. So I'd pick Howe with his historical ability to withstand physical punishment & Orr with the miracles of modern medicine, coupled with both men's incredible hockey talents. That pairing as rejuvenated building blocks for a modern team would be a very powerful force on both ends of the ice for a long haul.

 

[MadLuke]

One plus about Gretzky-Lemieux is that they scored quite a lot when put on the same line in the world cup (21 and 18 points in 9 games) and you can imagine the type of powerplay they give you. How much would they score playing against NHL team if they would have played one season of their prime together on a line ? Does Lemieux find is next gear sooner in is career if he see Gretzky train and how he play ?

Gretzky always make any package that include him a very interesting option and both could play a lot of minutes.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Orr and Howe. First though would like to clarify that Orr was not injury prone, rather the initial surgery was handled poorly even by the standards of the dayand afterwards he was never healthy.

Orr as a defenceman would see at least 20% more ice time per game than any forward. Huge advantage. Next it is possible to rotate all forward lines, every game thru an elite #1 defenceman. Important advantage. Finally, it is possible to match an elite #1 defenceman against an elite center or centers. Conversely the only way to avoid playing an elite center against an elite defenceman, is to sit the elite center.

Howe as a RW. Regularly extra shifted. Made the Parker MacDonald's, Earl Reibel's look great at center, however briefly.

Gretzky and Lemieux. Ideal center combo on paper. LHS and RHS but could not provide the defence that similar elite LHS/RHS combos did at center.Namely Jean Beliveau and Henri Richard, Max Bentley and Ted Kennedy, Sergei Fedorov and Steve Yzerman.

Play them on two lines, you get app 40-45 total TOI from the pair. As a pair, app. 25 minutes if they share the heavy lifting at center.

Both were playable if a team had an elite defensive center especially if supported by an elite defenceman.And despite all the dreamer arguments outscoring does not work in the NHL. When they won and put up high point totals, Gretzky and Lemieux were never surrounded by AHLers. They had at least 4-5 future HHOFers, upwards of 7 at times, without counting coaches.

Orr and Howe by far.

 

[The Panther]

Gretzky and Lemieux. Ideal center combo on paper. LHS and RHS but could not provide the defence that similar elite LHS/RHS combos did at center.Namely Jean Beliveau and Henri Richard, Max Bentley and Ted Kennedy, Sergei Fedorov and Steve Yzerman.

To clarify, you'd take Ted Kennedy and Steve Yzerman over Gretzky and Lemieux...?

Good example of Yzerman's defence vs. Gretzky at 2:50 in this clip:



But anyway, my answer to this kind of question would always depend on context -- mainly, the rest of the team I'm building. Like, if I already have Messier and Bourque on the team, then I'm taking Gretzky and Lemieux every time. But if I'm starting from scratch with only these two elite players and a bunch of scrubs to round out the line-up, then I might take Howe and Orr (assuming longevity and so on).

The ideal situation, really, would be Howe and Gretzky or Orr and Gretzky (or one of them and Lemieux).

 

[Ducks in a row]

Gretzky and Lemieux would make sure my team has two great scoring lines and a great power play.

 

[Canadiens1958]

To clarify, you'd take Ted Kennedy and Steve Yzerman over Gretzky and Lemieux...?

Good example of Yzerman's defence vs. Gretzky at 2:50 in this clip:



But anyway, my answer to this kind of question would always depend on context -- mainly, the rest of the team I'm building. Like, if I already have Messier and Bourque on the team, then I'm taking Gretzky and Lemieux every time. But if I'm starting from scratch with only these two elite players and a bunch of scrubs to round out the line-up, then I might take Howe and Orr (assuming longevity and so on).

The ideal situation, really, would be Howe and Gretzky or Orr and Gretzky (or one of them and Lemieux).

Where did I ever pair Ted Kennedy and Steve Yzerman? Never paired two RHS as you suggest, misread, misunderstand or misrepresent.

 

[Neutrinos]

#66 & #99

 

[cupcrazyman]

Gretzky & Lemieux

 

[Killion]

Orr & Howe.... 5 men aside with 2 subs on the bench & 1 goalie each.
With all the greats available.... make for an incredible game..... but....
even if building a full squad, 82 Game RS Schedule, still Orr & Howe.

 

[Thenameless]

But anyway, my answer to this kind of question would always depend on context -- mainly, the rest of the team I'm building.

One scenario I envisioned in my head is something akin to an expansion team. I know Vegas has done well, but it wasn't supposed to do "that" well. You get one of the two above pairs to start building your team, and most of the rest of team are likely to be pretty average players. The goal is to win a Stanley Cup, sell tickets, attract other good players to your team - everything an owner or GM is looking to do.

The other scenario I envisioned is the building of an all-time team. It's hard to assume the picks of the person that you are drafting against, but starting with the two different pairs gives the two teams a very different flavor at the top end. I intentionally put the well-rounded players together, while keeping the two offensive savants together as well.

 

[BenchBrawl]

One scenario I envisioned in my head is something akin to an expansion team. I know Vegas has done well, but it wasn't supposed to do "that" well. You get one of the two above pairs to start building your team, and most of the rest of team are likely to be pretty average players. The goal is to win a Stanley Cup, sell tickets, attract other good players to your team - everything an owner or GM is looking to do.

The other scenario I envisioned is the building of an all-time team. It's hard to assume the picks of the person that you are drafting against, but starting with the two different pairs gives the two teams a very different flavor at the top end. I intentionally put the well-rounded players together, while keeping the two offensive savants together as well.

If drafting an all-time team, then it's even more in favor of Howe and Orr.So many great centers to replace Gretzky and Lemieux with.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Only a two team draft? Who picks first and the remaining order.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Two teams draft won't make much difference which duo you take, you can fill the rest of the team so easily that it doesn't matter.

Not so bad to lose Orr and Howe if you can replace them with Harvey and Richard.Not so bad to lose Gretzky and Lemieux if you can replace them with Beliveau and Crosby or Morenz or whatever.

 

[Canadiens1958]

If drafting an all-time team, then it's even more in favor of Howe and Orr.So many great centers to replace Gretzky and Lemieux with.

True but the key question remains, which team picks the fifth player?

 

[BenchBrawl]

True but the key question remains, which team picks the fifth player?

Don't know, depends on draft structure and whether the duos are given before the draft.

Yes, it is a key question, because if you don't get Orr, then you need Harvey absolutely.But then, IMO, if you don't get Gretzky and Lemieux, you absolutely need Beliveau too.

 

[Thenameless]

I couldn't find a description of every knee injury Bobby Orr suffered during his career, but those I could find were due to collisions with no clearly intent to injure or failures of previous surgical repairs under the stress of hockey skating conditions. Secondly and as this Hockey News article from 2008 points out, turning back the clock to allow Orr to start his pro career in the 21st Century would offer him far less invasive surgical solutions (and thus less traumatic & more easily recuperable) that would very likely extend his career. So I'd pick Howe with his historical ability to withstand physical punishment & Orr with the miracles of modern medicine, coupled with both men's incredible hockey talents. That pairing as rejuvenated building blocks for a modern team would be a very powerful force on both ends of the ice for a long haul.

This is kind of what I was getting at (though not so clearly) with my post above. I don't think Bobby Orr is likely to have the same knee problems with the modern game, and modern medicine at hand. Lemieux's Hodgkin's, we can't do anything about - it comes or it doesn't. Lemieux's bad back was partly his own fault. Early on in his career, someone from the Penguins medical staff or training staff told Lemieux that taller, bigger guys in the NHL were prone to having bad backs, and that they should do certain exercises to strengthen that area of the body. Lemieux wasn't one to put too much effort into working out. In today's environment that stuff doesn't fly; teams and players in generally have more disciplined routines.

 

[Thenameless]

True but the key question remains, which team picks the fifth player?

The two GM's show up. Luckily, they are GM's of differing styles and philosophies, and agree on which pair they'll take. Now, we toss a coin for fifth, and then wrap around as per fair practice.