Who will have the longer NHL legacy? Ovi vs Sid

[pabst blue ribbon]

You can't really discuss either Ovechkin's or Crosby's legacy without the other player coming up. Both of these players have effectively been tied to the hip to each other since both have entered the league. I can't think of any other combination of 2 hockey players who have had their legacies tied together for so long despite never being teammates.

 

[hamzarocks]

It was a "serious" debate for the first 5 or 6 seasons and even then Crosby was probably ahead due to 2 trips to the SC finals and winning one but since Ovechkin's peak Crosby has clearly pulled away so polls like this (what does the OP even mean as both will be historical figures and either way no one alive in this thread today will get to say "see I was right".

Ovechkin is an all time great but some people get pretzel logic to try to make his case better than Crosby's when it's pretty clear who the better overall player was and still is today.

Pretty much

Crosby is the better player, he's the better player to build around, he's the better winner

OV the better goal scorer and at his peak more fun to watch

Crosby when it's all said and done I expect to rank 6th to 9th all time

OV 9th to 15th

Two absolute legends who made the game a treat to watch

Only the Oilers fanbase can say they've seen a player better than 87 and 8 on their team since they came to the league.

Don't get why people have to diminish Crosby to prop OV

Both legends of the game. The NHLs LeBron and KD (scaled down a tier as NHL big 4 is untouchable barring McDavid doing this for another 5 years) who didn't need to switch and and make superteams

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

As time goes on and people are remembering players from 50 years ago Ovechkin's name will still be up there with the all-time goal scoring leaders and his 9 Rocket Richards. He will likely be #1 in both categories for a long long time. While Crosby will be remembered I think he'll get lost in the shuffle of great centers like Messier, Yzerman, Mikita, Sakic, Beliveau, etc.

Personally I think Crosby is the better player, but that's not the question being asked. Hockey historians in 50 years will probably agree with me that Crosby is better, but that's a small percentage of hockey fans, most fans today know very little about the 60s hockey players.

Another factor Crosby fanboys won't like is this. Crosby is not particularly beloved or memorable, even here in Toronto. He's got a boring personality and his style of play isn't flashy. I don't blame him for shying away from the spotlight, I'd do the same. But the NHL is an entertainment business and Ovechkin is more entertaining.

It's kind of like Trottier and Bossy. When they were playing, the consensus was Trottier was better. Fast forward 40 years to today and 9/10 people will say Bossy. THN did their top 75 list a year ago and had Bossy well ahead. Why? Because his GPG, the 50 goal seasons, etc. Obviously Crosby is better than Trottier and OV is better than Bossy. But the point is, right or wrong, 50 years from now 99% of people aren't going to sit there analyzing game by game or watching them live like we do today. They are just going to go off of awards, stats, records, etc.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Pretty much

Crosby is the better player, he's the better player to build around, he's the better winner

OV the better goal scorer and at his peak more fun to watch

Crosby when it's all said and done I expect to rank 6th to 9th all time

OV 9th to 15th

Two absolute legends who made the game a treat to watch

Only the Oilers fanbase can say they've seen a player better than 87 and 8 on their team since they came to the league.

Don't get why people have to diminish Crosby to prop OV

Both legends of the game. The NHLs LeBron and KD (scaled down a tier as NHL big 4 is untouchable barring McDavid doing this for another 5 years) who didn't need to switch and and make superteams

I can accept Crosby > OV, that's fine. But wtf does the bolded even mean? Better winner based on what? Because his teams won more? That's just ridiculous. Just one example, in the 2016 caps/pens series, OV had more pts than Crosby and Malkin combined. But because his support didn't step up and Crosby's did, that makes Crosby a "better winner"? If you want to say Crosby is better because he's performed better in the playoffs, longer prime, more high end seasons, no stinker seasons, PPG, etc that's fair. "better winner" is just bs though.

 

[hamzarocks]

I can accept Crosby > OV, that's fine. But wtf does the bolded even mean? Better winner based on what? Because his teams won more? That's just ridiculous. Just one example, in the 2016 caps/pens series, OV had more pts than Crosby and Malkin combined. But because his support didn't step up and Crosby's did, that makes Crosby a "better winner"? If you want to say Crosby is better because he's performed better in the playoffs, longer prime, more high end seasons, no stinker seasons, PPG, etc that's fair. "better winner" is just bs though.

Winner in terms of all levels/comp

He's won at the wjc, Olympics, WCH, world cup of hockey and the three cups as well.

He's been able be part of winning teams more often than OV

Russia was usually #2 at the Olympics/World cup but they didn't win the tournaments and had some disappointing runs

Though better winner is a bit of a weird way of putting it, so my bad for that.

I just think Crosby being a Center, a better player, is able to elevate his team more than OV has in their careers which has led to him winning more at the NHL and international level

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Winner in terms of all levels/comp

He's won at the wjc, Olympics, WCH, world cup of hockey and the three cups as well.

He's been able be part of winning teams more often than OV

Russia was usually #2 at the Olympics/World cup but they didn't win the tournaments and had some disappointing runs

Though better winner is a bit of a weird way of putting it, so my bad for that.

I just think Crosby being a Center, a better player, is able to elevate his team more than OV has in their careers which has led to him winning more at the NHL and international level

It's not hard to win gold on team Canada, come on now. Russia was #2 to people who looked at nothing but their top 6 forwards. D and goaltending on those teams was absolute garbage. When you think of the best D and goalies from 2010-2014, how many Canadians do you mention before getting to 1 Russian? Swap Crosby and OV on those teams and nothing changes. A team winning doesn't make one player better than the other, especially when it's a gold medal for Canada. As far as the cups, like I said, in the 2016 series OV had more pts than Crosby and Malkin combined. Who exactly did Crosby "elevate" with his 2pts and -3 in 6 games? But because his team bailed out his pathetic performance, he's a "winner". Yeah sorry, makes no sense.

 

[MikeyMike01]

If he breaks the goal record, Ovechkin (by a wide margin).

 

[IcedCapp]

Can't be that clear since it's been a debate for 18 seasons now.

People debate something like climate change. That doesn’t mean it’s an actual debate, it just means if someone with horrible opinions (thinking ovechkin is the better player) are loud and obnoxious enough, people have to take the time to tell them to shut up.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

It's not hard to win gold on team Canada, come on now. Russia was #2 to people who looked at nothing but their top 6 forwards. D and goaltending on those teams was absolute garbage. When you think of the best D and goalies from 2010-2014, how many Canadians do you mention before getting to 1 Russian? Swap Crosby and OV on those teams and nothing changes. A team winning doesn't make one player better than the other, especially when it's a gold medal for Canada. As far as the cups, like I said, in the 2016 series OV had more pts than Crosby and Malkin combined. Who exactly did Crosby "elevate" with his 2pts and -3 in 6 games? But because his team bailed out his pathetic performance, he's a "winner". Yeah sorry, makes no sense.

Considering Crosby scored the OT goal in the gold medal game, it's really difficult to say that swapping him out wouldn't have changed anything

 

[wetcoast]

Well it sure looks like Ovi is going to set the record for most EN goals in a week (maybe month and year) as well.

But before fanboys go all crazy here the capitals were comfortably up 4-0 going into the 3rd period then give up 2 goals, while Ovi is on the ice in the first 3 and a half minutes then Ovi saves the day with another ENG right?

 

[the_fan]

Ovi just because he's gonna have the record of the most difficult thing to do in hockey, scoring goals.

Most goals in history of the NHL is enough to beat out Crosby

 

[Toby91ca]

It's kind of like Trottier and Bossy. When they were playing, the consensus was Trottier was better. Fast forward 40 years to today and 9/10 people will say Bossy. THN did their top 75 list a year ago and had Bossy well ahead. Why? Because his GPG, the 50 goal seasons, etc. Obviously Crosby is better than Trottier and OV is better than Bossy. But the point is, right or wrong, 50 years from now 99% of people aren't going to sit there analyzing game by game or watching them live like we do today. They are just going to go off of awards, stats, records, etc.

That’s probably a pretty bad comparison…Bossy’s career ppg stat is WAY higher than Trottier’s as well…though that has a lot to do with having to retire near his prime while Trottier continued to play. I can’t see many people having Trottier ahead back then though…he lead the team in scoring in Bossy’s first 3 years, but then Bossy took over…led 6 years in a row until he missed 20 games the year he retired

 

[um]

Winner in terms of all levels/comp

He's won at the wjc, Olympics, WCH, world cup of hockey and the three cups as well.

He's been able be part of winning teams more often than OV

Russia was usually #2 at the Olympics/World cup but they didn't win the tournaments and had some disappointing runs

Though better winner is a bit of a weird way of putting it, so my bad for that.

I just think Crosby being a Center, a better player, is able to elevate his team more than OV has in their careers which has led to him winning more at the NHL and international level

I understand your overall point, and I do consider Crosby the more clutch player. But bringing up team Canada wins as a bragging point is silly to me. Canada is heavily favoured to win any best on best tournament, and far far better than Russia is.

It’s like if South America merged into one country and and had one Soccer team. That’s team Canada in hockey.

 

[Quack Shot]

Ovi if he breaks the record

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Ovechkin might be the second most popular NHL player of all time after Wayne Gretzky. If he beats the record he will be AINEC

 

[nbwingsfan]

I think we all know Crosby has been the better overall rounded player when he is healthy.

100 years from now who will have the greater legacy in NHL history?

3 cups is nice but it only puts crosby ranked at 185 for most rings according to NHL records. His Conn S trophies puts him in a five way tie at 2nd for most won. He also has a slew of other trophies and accolades which puts him in an elite all-time ranking.

Ovi has an opportunity to possibly beat the Great one's goal totals and will be #2 in NHL history after this season. Currently holds many goal scoring NHL records for various achievements, Has the record for most "Rockets" won and also has a slew of other highly touted trophies in his trophy room.

So in the future ........Legacy wise will Ovi be more relevant/remembered? as his goal scoring records will be chased for a long time and be relevant in the NHL record books for possibly a very long time or will Crosby have a greater legacy?

Ovi will 100% have a greater legacy when/if he beats Gretzky’s record.

Beating an “unbreakable” record will be talked about much more than Crosby’s amazing but not record breaking career.

The hardcore fans will debate Crosby vs Ovi and there could be an argument for either, but the casuals will remember the greatest goal scorer of all time

 

[Toby91ca]

Ovi will 100% have a greater legacy when/if he beats Gretzky’s record.

Beating an “unbreakable” record will be talked about much more than Crosby’s amazing but not record breaking career.

The hardcore fans will debate Crosby vs Ovi and there could be an argument for either, but the casuals will remember the greatest goal scorer of all time

Why do people keeping referencing Gretzky's 894 goals as the "unbeatable" record? If I were to assess what will be the most difficult Gretzky feat for someone to break, not sure his 894 would be in my top 10.

More difficult would be:

- Goals in a season (92)
- Assists in a season (163)
- Assists in a career (1,963)
- Points in a career (2,857)
- Most consecutive 200 point seasons (3)...this might be the most difficult to break
- Least games to start a season to score 50 goals (39)
- Longest point streak (51 games)...somewhat easier than before with 3v3 OT now, but still very difficult
- Most Art Ross trophies (10)
- Most Hart Trophies (9)
- Maybe now we get to 894 goals.....but maybe total professional goals scored first (1,072).

But, I think goal scoring might the be least difficult to break simply because the record is held by a guy that wasn't really a shoot first guy.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Why do people keeping referencing Gretzky's 894 goals as the "unbeatable" record? If I were to assess what will be the most difficult Gretzky feat for someone to break, not sure his 894 would be in my top 10.

More difficult would be:

- Goals in a season (92)
- Assists in a season (163)
- Assists in a career (1,963)
- Points in a career (2,857)
- Most consecutive 200 point seasons (3)...this might be the most difficult to break
- Least games to start a season to score 50 goals (39)
- Longest point streak (51 games)...somewhat easier than before with 3v3 OT now, but still very difficult
- Most Art Ross trophies (10)
- Most Hart Trophies (9)
- Maybe now we get to 894 goals.....but maybe total professional goals scored first (1,072).

But, I think goal scoring might the be least difficult to break simply because the record is held by a guy that wasn't really a shoot first guy.

Just because it’s the easiest of his records to break doesn’t mean it wasn’t viewed as impossible to beat. In the entire history of the NHL the closest anyone got to his number was still 93 goals away by a guy who played forever

 

[Toby91ca]

Just because it’s the easiest of his records to break doesn’t mean it wasn’t viewed as impossible to beat. In the entire history of the NHL the closest anyone got to his number was still 93 goals away by a guy who played forever

I get that, but things change over time as well.....no accident that 27 out of the 30 top goal scorers (by career totals) are guys I've seen play live.

 

[norrisnick]

Why do people keeping referencing Gretzky's 894 goals as the "unbeatable" record? If I were to assess what will be the most difficult Gretzky feat for someone to break, not sure his 894 would be in my top 10.

More difficult would be:

- Goals in a season (92)
- Assists in a season (163)
- Assists in a career (1,963)
- Points in a career (2,857)
- Most consecutive 200 point seasons (3)...this might be the most difficult to break
- Least games to start a season to score 50 goals (39)
- Longest point streak (51 games)...somewhat easier than before with 3v3 OT now, but still very difficult
- Most Art Ross trophies (10)
- Most Hart Trophies (9)
- Maybe now we get to 894 goals.....but maybe total professional goals scored first (1,072).

But, I think goal scoring might the be least difficult to break simply because the record is held by a guy that wasn't really a shoot first guy.

It's not "the" unbeatable record. It is one of several unbeatable records. All of Wayne's marquee records were considered untouchable. This is the closest anyone has gotten to any of them.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I get that, but things change over time as well.....no accident that 27 out of the 30 top goal scorers (by career totals) are guys I've seen play live.

And yet outside of Ovi are even remotely close to Gretzky. That’s the point.

Nobody thought this record would be broken, just like no one will likely touch Ovi (if) when he breaks the record

 

[Toby91ca]

And yet outside of Ovi are even remotely close to Gretzky. That’s the point.

Nobody thought this record would be broken, just like no one will likely touch Ovi (if) when he breaks the record

I disagree with that though....assuming OV breaks the record (he hasn't done it yet, so it's not a forgone conclusion....even though it looks more and more likely)....I'm sure someone will come along and break his record, records are made to be broken....it is hard to imagine some of Gretzky's records being broken, but most records in all sports tend to get broken at some point.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I disagree with that though....assuming OV breaks the record (he hasn't done it yet, so it's not a forgone conclusion....even though it looks more and more likely)....I'm sure someone will come along and break his record, records are made to be broken....it is hard to imagine some of Gretzky's records being broken, but most records in all sports tend to get broken at some point.

Yes I’m sure sometime in the next 60+ years it may happen.

It’s incredibly unlikely to happen in our lifetime though

 

[Toby91ca]

Yes I’m sure sometime in the next 60+ years it may happen.

It’s incredibly unlikely to happen in our lifetime though

I'll disagree with that....Howe was 33 years older than Gretzky, Gretzky is 24 years older than Ovechkin....so perhaps someone does it in the next 30 years....I certainly plan on living longer than that.

 

[norrisnick]

I'll disagree with that....Howe was 33 years older than Gretzky, Gretzky is 24 years older than Ovechkin....so perhaps someone does it in the next 30 years....I certainly plan on living longer than that.

I don't.

That said, none of it changes the fact that the general consensus was that the bulk of Gretzky's records were viewed as unbreakable. Just do a web search of Wayne+Gretzky+Unbreakable+Records and you will find article after article and list after list of people pontificating about the subject. It's taken a perfect storm of an individual with the skill, durability, and will to get this close. And "this close" is still 2-3 years away. But no one else is within 10+ years of getting as close as Ovechkin has gotten. And the odds that someone already active is the one to potentially re-break it is very slim.