OT: Who Remembers the Pre-Championship Raptors?

[The Podium]

When you think of the Raptors what comes to mind?

Character, winners

When you think of Kyle Lowry?

Leader, Champion

What about 2 years ago?

Chokers, regular season team, losers, mentally fragile

Why is this relevant? Champion teams arent made in a season, some not even in 5 seasons. Look at the 6 year road it took the Raptors to win:

2013-2014 - First Round 3-4 L to Brooklyn Nets (underdogs)
2014-2015 - First Round 0-4 L to Washington Wizards (even)
2015-2016 - Conference Finals 2-4 L to Cleveland Cavaliers (even)
2016-2017 - Second Round 0-4 L to Cleveland Cavaliers (even)
2017-2018 - Second Round 0-4 L to Cleveland Cavaliers (favourites)

By 2018 there were questions about character, mental fragility, whether the core should be blown up (partially), questioning management and whether Masai was the right person for the job. None of that is questioned anymore. In fact, they are now the poster team for how to run a successful franchise. Sometimes it takes pain to win, sometimes it takes scars and heartbreak before a team can breakthrough. It was true for the Raptors, true for MJ and the Bulls, true for Ovechkin, true for the Blues. Not every team is Chicago/Pittsburgh, in fact they are actually the exception.

Yes the Leafs are in year 4 with no progress. They cant win a sudden death matchup. There is questions about their character and mental fragility. There is speculation that the core should be blow up. Questions of its leadership and management. Sometimes it takes one trade to change everything.

Click to read more...

 

[Dave92]

In the last 4 years the Raptors have only lost to arguably the best player in the history of the sport. A guy who hadn't lost a series outside of the finals in almost a decade.

The Raptors were way better than the Leafs pre championship.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

It wasn’t until Masai had the stones to trade the franchise player to shake up what became stale before the team finally took the next step. It’s quite possible (evident?) that Dubas will be tasked (forced?) with the same difficult decision.

 

[KapG]

Yah but those heartbreaks and chokes were with demar derozan leading our team. He was always garbage. Once he was traded the entire team changed.

 

[KapG]

Le

In the last 4 years the Raptors have only lost to arguably the best player in the history of the sport. A guy who hadn't lost a series outside of the finals in almost a decade.

The Raptors were way better than the Leafs pre championship.

bron was also doing that in an eastern conference that may go down as one of the weakest conferences ever for a decade. Take him to the finals though and his record ain’t so grand. He also had to handpick all his teams lmaoo. He’s so lame

 

[Mickey Marner]

Two differences big between those Raptors and these Leafs

a) Demar DeRozan is one of the worst playoff performers in sports history
b) LeBron James

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

We still have the 4th youngest roster in the league. Yes Chicago and Pittsburgh won early in their processes, but the majority of this team is still extremely young.

I can't imagine Edmobton fans are talking about trading Draisaitl this offseason.. this fanbase just loves to freak out.

 

[kliq]

Yah but those heartbreaks and chokes were with demar derozan leading our team. He was always garbage. Once he was traded the entire team changed.

DeMar is not garbage, he just isnt good enough to be the best player on a championship level team. He couldn't lead a team against LaBron, its simple. He's still a damn good player, just not "the guy".

 

[Plat87]

The Raptors got out of the first round numerous times and even made the ECF Pre-Kawhi. Don't you ever disrespect the Raptors by comparing them to Leafs ever again....16 years without a playoff series win nuff said.

 

[Plat87]

It wasn’t until Masai had the stones to trade the franchise player to shake up what became stale before the team finally took the next step. It’s quite possible (evident?) that Dubas will be tasked (forced?) with the same difficult decision.

Even the pre-Kawhi Raptors were several steps ahead of the current Leafs, and they seem to be regressing.

We still have the 4th youngest roster in the league. Yes Chicago and Pittsburgh won early in their processes, but the majority of this team is still extremely young.

I can't imagine Edmobton fans are talking about trading Draisaitl this offseason.. this fanbase just loves to freak out.

A decade and a half of not winning a single playoff round would do that to you.

 

[lovemyleafs]

Raptors made it out the first round a bunch of times tho.
2014-2015 was probably the most disappointing season in franchise history. Pretty sure we were favorites to win that series against the Wizards, since I remember us blowing them out every regular season game that year.
From then on, we beat every team in the playoffs except the team that had arguably the greatest player ever, LeGOAT James.

Leafs just lose in embarrassing fashion. They'll choke away games, blow series leads, etc.
Also Masai is the best executive in the league and Dubas has had more hiccups in his first year as a GM than Masai has had in his entire tenure as a Raptors GM/executive.
The level of trust in Masai is 10/10, Dubas is probably a 5 max. He can't negotiate a reasonable contract, gets ripped off in trades, etc. He's literally been the complete opposite of Masai so far.

 

[Plat87]

I feel like anybody who tries to say that the pre-Kawhi Raptors are the equivalent to the current Leafs are just pretending to know anything about the NBA, you couldn't be anymore wrong.

 

[KapG]

DeMar is not garbage, he just isnt good enough to be the best player on a championship level team. He couldn't lead a team against LaBron, its simple. He's still a damn good player, just not "the guy".

Of course he isn’t “garbage”. You don’t average what he averages a game if you are garbage. That being said no teams gonna win anything with him as the main option. That’s been proven countless times already. It’s no surprise the raptors got over the final hump once he was shipped out.

 

[KapG]

I feel like anybody who tries to say that the pre-Kawhi Raptors are the equivalent to the current Leafs are just pretending to know anything about the NBA, you couldn't be anymore wrong.

They were making conference finals and winning rounds so I’d agree with you.

Raptors made it out the first round a bunch of times tho.
2014-2015 was probably the most disappointing season in franchise history. Pretty sure we were favorites to win that series against the Wizards, since I remember us blowing them out every regular season game that year.
From then on, we beat every team in the playoffs except the team that had arguably the greatest player ever, LeGOAT James.

Leafs just lose in embarrassing fashion. They'll choke away games, blow series leads, etc.
Also Masai is the best executive in the league and Dubas has had more hiccups in his first year as a GM than Masai has had in his entire tenure as a Raptors GM/executive.
The level of trust in Masai is 10/10, Dubas is probably a 5 max. He can't negotiate a reasonable contract, gets ripped off in trades, etc. He's literally been the complete opposite of Masai so far.

There is no argument that can be made where lebron is the greatest player ever. Stop with this narrative. You must be like 15 years old

 

[Strangle]

It wasn’t until Masai had the stones to trade the franchise player to shake up what became stale before the team finally took the next step. It’s quite possible (evident?) that Dubas will be tasked (forced?) with the same difficult decision.

Does Dubas have the stones Masai showed to go out and use his assets to improve the team in the way Masai did?

We will find out

 

[TheScandal89]

I've watched the Raptors since day 1, threw the Damon Stoudmire, Popeye Jones, Marcus Camby days to the Carter, Mcgrady, Alvin Willams days...you get the point. I even had to listen on the radio when sportsnet or tsn didnt televise the games.

And let me tell you, it took a long long time for them to win a become respectable. It wasnt too long ago they sucked and no one cared. But its a different sport where you can spend 150 million on 10-12 guys...

 

[Rob Brown]

In the last 4 years the Raptors have only lost to arguably the best player in the history of the sport. A guy who hadn't lost a series outside of the finals in almost a decade.

The Raptors were way better than the Leafs pre championship.

The series loss to the Nets (and I suppose the Wizards) felt a lot like the Leafs.

 

[al secord]

Does Dubas have the stones Masai showed to go out and use his assets to improve the team in the way Masai did?

We will find out

If James Dolan didn't save Masai from himself and kibosh the Lowry trade, i wonder what people's thoughts would be about the man.

 

[v4karuna]

No.

Pre champ Raptors >>>> Current Leafs

When the Raptors made the playoffs they won a few rounds.. they didn't have 4 straight exits.

That's the difference, if the leafs made it to the second round at least once, then ya maybe one could argue how they were similar

 

[Deebo]

No.

Pre champ Raptors >>>> Current Leafs

When the Raptors made the playoffs they won a few rounds.. they didn't have 4 straight exits.

That's the difference, if the leafs made it to the second round at least once, then ya maybe one could argue how they were similar

After Lowry joined on 2012/13 , they missed the playoffs all together 2012/13 then lost in the first round as the higher seed two years in a row, being swept once.
Then had a good showing on 16/16, going to the ECF and giving the Cavs a run for their money.
Then were swept twice in a row again after needing 6 games as the 3 seed and 1 seed in the first round the next couple years.

The playoff performances in the first 3 years in the Lowry era were worse than the Leafs first 3 years with Matthews.

The 4th year, the Raptors were obviously better.

Lets see what the 5th and 6th years look like in Leaf land.

 

[The Apologist]

We need a shake up. Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares is a lot of talent up front but also a lot of money.
Financially it's too much money up front.

Personally with Rielly and Muzz I'm not for blowing the farm on D but we could certainly use a couple of guys between Muzz and Dermott.

I don't know that on the trade Andersen train yet, interested in seeing what we have in Campbell.

 

[hamzarocks]

They were making conference finals and winning rounds so I’d agree with you.

There is no argument that can be made where lebron is the greatest player ever. Stop with this narrative. You must be like 15 years old

Bron is number 2 tho behind MJ. He has accumulated enough totals and high end performances that he is behind MJ and ahead of Kareem and the rest. Incredible though Lebron become such good player and overtook legends like Bird and Magic who were probably considered impassable in the 90s and early 00s

 

[Plat87]

After Lowry joined on 2012/13 , they missed the playoffs all together 2012/13 then lost in the first round as the higher seed two years in a row, being swept once.
Then had a good showing on 16/16, going to the ECF and giving the Cavs a run for their money.
Then were swept twice in a row again after needing 6 games as the 3 seed and 1 seed in the first round the next couple years.

The playoff performances in the first 3 years in the Lowry era were worse than the Leafs first 3 years with Matthews.

The 4th year, the Raptors were obviously better.

Lets see what the 5th and 6th years look like in Leaf land.

Stop it, you're leaving alot of stuff out, c'mon now. Why don't you start with the Masai/Shanahan era instead of Matthews/Lowry?, Lowry was brought in by the infamous Brian Colangelo. Why did you leave out the fact that arguably the greatest of all time is the only player to beat the Raptors in the playoffs since 2015, why did you leave out the fact that the Masai led Raptors has done all of this with only one significant lottery pick, while the Leafs are filled with them, you forgot to mention that the Raptors has the most RS wins IN THE NBA since 2014 and has 5 straight 50 wins seasons, winning their division 4 times, when's the last time the Leafs won their division?. This current Leafs team has not been better than this Raptor team at ANY POINT in time, the Raptors keep trending up while the Leafs are going the other way, the Leafs didn't even make the playoffs this year.

Wake me up when the Leafs achieve something like this, it doesn't even have to be a championship...

 

[Havoc]

NBA equivalent of Matthews and Tavares combo is already conference finals minimum.

You can't drop player names and try to find nba team equivalent. It doesn't translate.

What you can do is this:

Raps are one of the smartest and well structured groups in the league. You can talk about skill, grit , toughness , this trade, that trade, whatever all day.

But it will always come down to skill + IQ. Our core is sadly surrounded by idiots. Complain all you want about everything else but ultimately that is what it comes down to. The core isn't the issue. (Okay yeah all that cap stuff too but finding cheap warriors for bottom 6 is the suits job to figure out).


So far Dubas is 2/2 on skilled, good/high IQ picks. Seems like he knows this already.

Some patience is still needed. We have a lot of low IQ guys to replace before you touch the core.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Even the pre-Kawhi Raptors were several steps ahead of the current Leafs, and they seem to be regressing.



A decade and a half of not winning a single playoff round would do that to you.

The Leafs are not regressing. They actually have performed much better the past two years, so they are progressing. Enough to win both series, but the better team does not always win in the playoffs.

Additionally, the NHL and NBA are completely different. There is a lot less parity in basketball, with only 2 or 3 teams from the East which have a good shot at winning at any given time. If you can't make it out of the first round in basketball, then you either choked or you suck and probably should not have been in the playoffs to begin with. The real NBA playoffs start at the semis, and the Raptors have only made it past those twice in their entire 25 year history: Last year, and in 2015-2016. It took them like 20 years to win a real playoff round, and 25 to even get to the Championship Finals (1/1 baby).

NHL, there are at least 5... If not a lot more than that. Additionally, there is a lot less room for error. If you miss a shot or even have a bad stretch of play in an NBA game, it is a lot less likely to hurt you than if you miss a goal. A team needs to make a couple dozen baskets if they want to win a game, so missing a couple is not often a big deal. In the NHL, if you are scoring 3 goals in a game, you are doing quite well... So missing one or two goals could be the entire game or series (as you can by Columbus, and we missed a lot more than just one or two goals).

Also one good player can change an entire franchise in Basketball a lot more than they can in hockey, as you can see by Leonard.