Who is the 11th Best Centre?

[LeafsNation75]

There is actually a difference: Those teams win.

The hatred of the Leafs is more imagined than real. People might hate the fact that certain fans always accuse them of hating them, but they probably couldn't care less about the team. Delusions of grandeur.

The Lakers have been among the worst NBA teams for the past few seasons. The Celtics only started to become a good team last season and the Yankees just recently had playoff success which surprised everyone. The only consistent team listed was the Patriots.

 

[Sojourn]

He was sustaining his level of play just fine untill he got hurt. But the point is he never was given the min that other stars are given because of Babcock's style of coaching. But being a top center is not just points (even tho Mathews does very well in this aspect) but also defensive play is very imoortimp and he is third in the league in GA/60.

18 games is not enough time to say he was sustaining it, especially when his shooting percentage was so high. Unless you're going to try to suggest Matthews is capable of doing something no other player is, which is just ridiculous.

The Babcock excuse is just that, an excuse. Pavel Datsyuk had multiple seasons where he played 20+ minutes a game. Ditto for Zetterberg. Lidstrom consistently got 25+ minutes a game on the blue line. If Babcock felt Toronto could be a more successful team, leaning on Matthews to play 20+ minutes a game, I have no doubt he would do that.

 

[Sojourn]

The Lakers have been among the worst NBA teams for the past few seasons. The Celtics only started to become a good team last season and the Yankees just recently had playoff success which surprised everyone. The only consistent team listed was the Patriots.

"the past few seasons"

Sure, after winning a bunch just prior to that.

 

[LeafsNation75]

"the past few seasons"

Sure, after winning a bunch just prior to that.

Besides the Patriots who won multiple Super Bowl's recently the last championship for the Lakers was in 2010, the Yankees last World Series title was in 2009 and the Celtics last championship was in 2008. So that's been more than the past few seasons.

 

[Sojourn]

Besides the Patriots who won multiple Super Bowl's recently the last championship for the Lakers was in 2010, the Yankees last World Series title was in 2009 and the Celtics last championship was in 2008. So that's been more than the past few seasons.

Those are recent championships. We're talking about professional sports. Success isn't just last year, or the year before.

 

[bionic]

18 games is not enough time to say he was sustaining it, especially when his shooting percentage was so high. Unless you're going to try to suggest Matthews is capable of doing something no other player is, which is just ridiculous.

The Babcock excuse is just that, an excuse. Pavel Datsyuk had multiple seasons where he played 20+ minutes a game. Ditto for Zetterberg. Lidstrom consistently got 25+ minutes a game on the blue line. If Babcock felt he Toronto could be a more successful team, leaning on Matthews to play 20+ minutes a game, I have no doubt he would do that.

There is no Babcock excuse it's just fact. Matthews plays less min then any other star player in the league and when he does play those min it's with Hyman tied to his hip. Yet despite this fact he still leads his team in points and goals and the league in even strength goals despite missing 10 games.
Anyways this has honestly been a great debate. Neither of us are going to change are minds ...lol...thanks for the cool debate.

 

[Sojourn]

There is no Babcock excuse it's just fact. Matthews plays less min then any other star player in the league and when he does play those min it's with Hyman tied to his hip. Yet despite this fact he still leads his team in points and goals and the league in even strength goals despite missing 10 games.
Anyways this has honestly been a great debate. Neither of us are going to change are minds ...lol...thanks for the cool debate.

You're passing off your opinion as fact.

The fact is that Babcock has shown no problem of giving players more minutes in the past.

It's an opinion to speculate that he wouldn't be willing to do the same for Matthews.

 

[GodEmperor]

Getzlaf averages more ice time, and he averages more points per game. Matthews is producing at about a 75 point pace. Getzlaf is producing at about a 90 point pace.

No one cares about Getzlaf's goal scoring because he's a playmaker, and the fact that he scores that many fewer goals and still out-produces Matthews should tell you something.

Good for him, that's why the p/60 numbers matter.

No one cares about Matthew's assists because he's a goal scorer. The fact that Matthews has scored more goals in his rookie season than Getzlaf has ever scored in nearly 15 years of play should tell you something.

 

[Sojourn]

Good for him, that's why the p/60 numbers matter.

No one cares about Matthew's assists because he's a goal scorer. The fact that Matthews has scored more goals in his rookie season than Getzlaf has ever scored in nearly 15 years of play should tell you something.

It tells me that he scores more goals, and puts up less points.

Which I think is kind of noteworthy, because the best players are typically the ones who put up impressive point totals regardless of whether they score goals or make plays.

 

[GodEmperor]

It tells me that he scores more goals, and puts up less points.

Which I think is kind of noteworthy, because the best players are typically the ones who put up impressive point totals regardless of whether they score goals or make plays.

*So far

Basically he's keeping up pace with him in his 2nd year v a just slightly past prime Getzlaf.

Yeah typically they are, Getzlaf may even be slightly better this year, it's a close call, enjoy it. It's not going to last much longer and it will soon become undeniable when Babcock stops f***ing around with his ice time and playing him with the worst 1st line winger in the NHL in Hyman.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Those are recent championships. We're talking about professional sports. Success isn't just last year, or the year before.

Aren't all teams measured by championships? I know they need to be successful in other areas, however in the end they are measured by if they can win a championship at the end of their seasons.

 

[Sojourn]

*So far

Basically he's keeping up pace with him in his 2nd year v a just slightly past prime Getzlaf.

Yeah typically they are, Getzlaf may even be slightly better this year, it's a close call, enjoy it. It's not going to last much longer and it will soon become undeniable when Babcock stops ****ing around with his ice time and playing him with the worst 1st line winger in the NHL in Hyman.

His pace is currently about 15 points less over a full season than Getzlaf. That isn't keeping pace, and it's only that close because of an unsustainable hot start from Matthews.

 

[Sojourn]

Aren't all teams measured by championships? I know they need to be successful in other areas, however in the end they are measured by if they can win a championship at the end of their seasons.

Ultimately? Sure, they are measured by Championships. That's not the point. The point is that in professional sports, recent is measured differently.

bionic was arguing that those teams were hated simply because of coverage, but they were also hated because of success. Just look at the Blackhawks. Three Cups, lots of coverage, lots of being forced down people's throats, and lots of dislike.

 

[GodEmperor]

His pace is currently about 15 points less over a full season than Getzlaf. That isn't keeping pace, and it's only that close because of an unsustainable hot start from Matthews.

You keep ignoring the p/60 as if they're irrelevant.

I get it though, you feel slighted because one of the best American prospects of all time is keeping up with Getzlaf in his 2nd year.

There's no reason to feel that way, they are neck and neck and either or is fine really, just for your own sake:

GET USED TO IT

Matthews career is likely going to be WAY better than Ryan's, he has already proven his goal scoring is one of the best in the league as a 2nd year player, if you think he's not going to become a better playmaker once:

1.He gets more ice time
2.Babcock puts up someone we already have that is better than Hyman, i.e Kapanen with him on the wing
3.He gets more PP time

I don't know what to tell you, but then again you want to ignore p/60, so it's not as if you're not already in a bad position.

 

[Sojourn]

You keep ignoring the p/60 as if they're irrelevant.

I get it though, you feel slighted because one of the best American prospects of all time is keeping up with Getzlaf in his 2nd year.

There's no reason to feel that way, they are neck and neck and either or is fine really, just for your own sake:

GET USED TO IT

Matthews career is likely going to be WAY better than Ryan's, he has already proven his goal scoring is one of the best in the league as a 2nd year player, if you think he's not going to become a better playmaker once:

1.He gets more ice time
2.Babcock puts up someone we already have that is better than Hyman, i.e Kapanen with him on the wing
3.He gets more PP time

I don't know what to tell you, but then again you want to ignore p/60, so it's not as if you're not already in a bad position.

I don't ignore it. I just don't give it the same weight as you.

The rest of all that is just garbage. You like Matthews. Great. I think he's a great player too. He just isn't as good as some people make him out to be. I think the fact you have to lean on those types of statistics to prop him up is evidence that you have to. Just like you mock Getzlaf's goal scoring, despite the fact he is a playmaking center.

I think Getzlaf's career has gone just fine, and he'll finish it off in the Hall of Fame. He'll likely finish his career with more points than Matthews, but less goals.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Ultimately? Sure, they are measured by Championships. That's not the point. The point is that in professional sports, recent is measured differently.

bionic was arguing that those teams were hated simply because of coverage, but they were also hated because of success. Just look at the Blackhawks. Three Cups, lots of coverage, lots of being forced down people's throats, and lots of dislike.

So explain all the coverage the Lakers get despite being one of the worst NBA teams the past few seasons. Now some of it might be ratings to see what Lavar Ball said about Lonzo, however like it or not they are still getting primetime coverage.

 

[Sojourn]

So explain all the coverage the Lakers get despite being one of the worst NBA teams the past few seasons. Now some of it might be ratings to see what Lavar Ball said about Lonzo, however like it or not they are still getting primetime coverage.

5 Championships between 2000 and 2010 goes a long way.

Being in the LA market helps keep them there.

 

[LeafsNation75]

5 Championships between 2000 and 2010 goes a long way.

Being in the LA market helps keep them there.

I realize that, however would you not agree they looked a lot more like the recent Maple Leafs teams who finished last place or close to the bottom, however just like the Leafs they benefited from playing in a huge media market to give them attention.

 

[Sojourn]

I realize that, however would you not agree they looked a lot more like the recent Maple Leafs teams who finished last place or close to the bottom, however just like the Leafs they benefited from playing in a huge media market to give them attention.

Sure, but it's still different. The Lakers are a team that was disliked for their success, and that dislike still exists. Seeing them not do as well for a little bit doesn't suddenly erase that. I'm sure some people are happy to see the Red Wings fall out of the playoffs, but that doesn't mean any dislike they had for their success is suddenly erased. Ditto for Chicago.

That doesn't apply to Toronto. Many people here weren't even alive the last time they won a Championship. Probably yourself included, if your username is based on your DOB. There is no reason to have dislike for their past success, because it isn't relevant. Sure, the media coverage might get annoying for some, but for others it has no impact on them at all. I'm not going to that there aren't people who don't like Toronto, but to see it constantly brought up in every single poll, and used as an excuse in almost any incident where people disagree with Toronto fans is an old and tired argument. You might need to consider that people disagree because they disagree. That would allow you to actually go further into the discussions, because you aren't being paranoid that people are just hating on you. There are legitimate reasons people might think Matthews is outside the top 10 of Centers, as an example. Good reasons. You might not agree yourself, and that's your opinion, and I respect that, but constantly seeing it brought up when a vote doesn't go Toronto's way just gets ridiculous. Or when people say "Hold your horses" on Toronto's start to the season, or Matthews starting the season off as hot as he did.

Think about it, were they wrong? Toronto did slow down. Markedly. Matthews did cool off. Those arguments were made because they applied to the situation. It wasn't because people hate Toronto. It's because we've seen this type of thing before, and it consistently ends the same way.

 

[GodEmperor]

I don't ignore it. I just don't give it the same weight as you.

The rest of all that is just garbage. You like Matthews. Great. I think he's a great player too. He just isn't as good as some people make him out to be. I think the fact you have to lean on those types of statistics to prop him up is evidence that you have to. Just like you mock Getzlaf's goal scoring, despite the fact he is a playmaking center.

I think Getzlaf's career has gone just fine, and he'll finish it off in the Hall of Fame. He'll likely finish his career with more points than Matthews, but less goals.

I wonder why that is???? Hmm could it be you're trying to skew things to 15 goal Ryan?

I'm glad you agree he is a great player, now the next step is for you to deal with his poor usage under Babcock and realize the long term ramifications, especially when it comes to 15 goal Ryan.

That's doubtful, but don't let me stop you from making wrong claims now, Getzlaf's first 140 games v Matthews:

2005-06

Anaheim Mighty Ducks

NHL

57

14

25

39

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2006-07

Anaheim Ducks

NHL

82

25

33

58

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Gp: 139 Goals: 39 Assists: 58 Points: 97

2016-17

Toronto Maple Leafs

NHL

82

40

29

69

14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2017-18

Toronto Maple Leafs

NHL

46

25

18

43

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

GP: 128 Goals: 65 Asssists: 47 Points: 112

Nearly double the goals, more points in 10 less games, but yeah he's definitely going to be worse than 15 goal Ryan who hasn't even cracked 40 once LOL.

Oh and the funniest thing of all? Getzlaf was a year and a half older than Matthews in his first year......keep dreaming, it's only going to get worse for you from here on out.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Sure, but it's still different. The Lakers are a team that was disliked for their success, and that dislike still exists. Seeing them not do as well for a little bit doesn't suddenly erase that. I'm sure some people are happy to see the Red Wings fall out of the playoffs, but that doesn't mean any dislike they had for their success is suddenly erased. Ditto for Chicago.

That doesn't apply to Toronto. Many people here weren't even alive the last time they won a Championship. Probably yourself included, if your username is based on your DOB. There is no reason to have dislike for their past success, because it isn't relevant. Sure, the media coverage might get annoying for some, but for others it has no impact on them at all. I'm not going to that there aren't people who don't like Toronto, but to see it constantly brought up in every single poll, and used as an excuse in almost any incident where people disagree with Toronto fans is an old and tired argument. You might need to consider that people disagree because they disagree. That would allow you to actually go further into the discussions, because you aren't being paranoid that people are just hating on you. There are legitimate reasons people might think Matthews is outside the top 10 of Centers, as an example. Good reasons. You might not agree yourself, and that's your opinion, and I respect that, but constantly seeing it brought up when a vote doesn't go Toronto's way just gets ridiculous. Or when people say "Hold your horses" on Toronto's start to the season, or Matthews starting the season off as hot as he did.

Think about it, were they wrong? Toronto did slow down. Markedly. Matthews did cool off. Those arguments were made because they applied to the situation. It wasn't because people hate Toronto. It's because we've seen this type of thing before, and it consistently ends the same way.

You are correct that I was not born when the Leafs last won the Stanley Cup. However 75 is not the year I was born, I was born in 1985. The reason I choose 75 beside my username is because I drive down Interstate 75 twice a year when I go to Walt Disney World.

 

[Sojourn]

I wonder why that is???? Hmm could it be you're trying to skew things to 15 goal Ryan?

I'm glad you agree he is a great player, now the next step is for you to deal with his poor usage under Babcock and realize the long term ramifications, especially when it comes to 15 goal Ryan.

That's doubtful, but don't let me stop you from making wrong claims now, Getzlaf's first 140 games v Matthews:

2005-06

Anaheim Mighty Ducks

NHL

57

14

25

39

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2006-07

Anaheim Ducks

NHL

82

25

33

58

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Gp: 139 Goals: 39 Assists: 58 Points: 97

2016-17

Toronto Maple Leafs

NHL

82

40

29

69

14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2017-18

Toronto Maple Leafs

NHL

46

25

18

43

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

GP: 128 Goals: 65 Asssists: 47 Points: 112

Nearly double the goals, more points in 10 less games, but yeah he's definitely going to be worse than 15 goal Ryan who hasn't even cracked 40 once LOL.

Oh and the funniest thing of all? Getzlaf was a year and a half older than Matthews in his first year......keep dreaming, it's only going to get worse for you from here on out.

It's probably because Matthews isn't on my team, and I don't feel the need to inflate the importance of stats that make him look better.

As for your career argument: Getzlaf started his career on the 4th line. You'll note that when he was on the 1st line, he immediately went from 58 points in 82 games to 82 points in 77 games.

What you should also note is that Ryan Getzlaf had quite a few seasons where he exceeded the PPG mark. Putting up very good numbers after the age of 30 is not something every player can do. Getzlaf is showing himself capable of that. Maybe Matthews can. We'll see. Matthews has yet to show he can even have one PPG season, and unless he can, that will only make Getzlaf's career look better compared to his over time.

But yes, Matthews will be the better goal scorer. Keep holding to that as if it's the only thing that matters. I'm sure being one of the premier playmakers in the game is a grave insult to Getzlaf.

 

[Sojourn]

You are correct that I was not born when the Leafs last won the Stanley Cup. However 75 is not the year I was born, I was born in 1985. The reason I choose 75 beside my username is because I drive down Interstate 75 twice a year when I go to Walt Disney World.

Nice. Family stuff? Or just because?

 

[GodEmperor]

It's probably because Matthews isn't on my team, and I don't feel the need to inflate the importance of stats that make him look better.

As for your career argument: Getzlaf started his career on the 4th line. You'll note that when he was on the 1st line, he immediately went from 58 points in 82 games to 82 points in 77 games.

What you should also note is that Ryan Getzlaf had quite a few seasons where he exceeded the PPG mark. Putting up very good numbers after the age of 30 is not something every player can do. Getzlaf is showing himself capable of that. Maybe Matthews can. We'll see. Matthews has yet to show he can even have one PPG season, and unless he can, that will only make Getzlaf's career look better compared to his over time.

True, you just focus on Getzlaf.

Maybe he should've been better then? And yeah that "immediately" was 3 years into his career when he was 24. And besides, why does it matter if he was on the 4th line? Are you telling me TOI matters?

Good for him, Matthews is on about PPG in his 2nd year, something Getzlaf didn't do until he was 24, but keep pumping those tires, gonna be very hard in the coming years, especially as paltry 15 goal Ryan continues to score less and less.

 

[Sojourn]

Better than leading his team in points on the way to a Stanley Cup in his second year?

That's awful.

Or how about having 118 points in 121 playoff games?

Good luck, Matthews.