Who Had More Pure Ability: Gretzky Or Lemieux?

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lemieux missed 3.5 years and came back at 35 and was immediately the best player in the world. That is talent. Wayne could not have done the same. I’m sure Lemieux could still rack up a good amount of points on the pp. TODAY

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Lemieux missed 3.5 years and came back at 35 and was immediately the best player in the world. That is talent. Wayne could not have done the same. I’m sure Lemieux could still rack up a good amount of points on the pp. TODAY

Just like Lemieux couldn't score 200pts (multiple times) or 90 goals or 50+ game pt streak, etc. But yeah, let's penalize Gretzky for staying healthy and being better.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Just like Lemieux couldn't score 200pts (multiple times) or 90 goals or 50+ game pt streak, etc. But yeah, let's penalize Gretzky for staying healthy and being better.

Healthier? Yes. Better lmfao no

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Good Lemieux is winning as he should

 

[Albatros]

Gretzky's stats are a product of his era, the 92 goals is arguably not even his own best scoring season never mind better than Mario's best.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Healthier? Yes. Better lmfao no

So the guy who has (way) more trophies, better stats in literally everything (raw, adjusted, single season, playoffs, career), basically every record in the book, the better seasons in the same era isn't the better player? I know pens fans love their fantasy with Lemieux and Crosby but come on lol

 

[Albatros]

the better seasons in the same era

Their mutual seasons are a 6:6 tie:

1984/85
Gretzky 80 73+135=208 (2.60 ppg)
Lemieux 73 43+57=100 (1.37 ppg)

1985/86
Gretzky 80 52+163=215 (2.69)
Lemieux 79 48+93=141 (1.78)

1986/87
Gretzky 79 62+121=183 (2.32)
Lemieux 63 54+53=107 (1.70)

1987/88
Lemieux 77 70+98=168 (2.18)
Gretzky 64 40+109=149 (2.33)

1988/89
Lemieux 76 85+114=199 (2.62)
Gretzky 78 41+122=163 (2.15)

1989/90
Gretzky 73 40+102=142 (1.95)
Lemieux 59 45+78=123 (2.08)

1990/91
Gretzky 78 41+122=163 (2.09)
Lemieux 26 19+26=45 (1.73)

1991/92
Lemieux 64 44+87=131 (2.05)
Gretzky 74 31+90=121 (1.64)

1992/93
Lemieux 60 69+91=160 (2.67)
Gretzky 45 16+49=65 (1.44)

1993/94
Gretzky 81 38+92=130 (1.60)
Lemieux 22 17+20=37 (1.68)

1995/96
Lemieux 70 69+92=161 (2.30)
Gretzky 80 23+79=102 (1.28)

1996/97
Lemieux 76 50+72=122 (1.61)
Gretzky 82 25+72=97 (1.18)

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

So the guy who has (way) more trophies, better stats in literally everything (raw, adjusted, single season, playoffs, career), basically every record in the book, the better seasons in the same era isn't the better player? I know pens fans love their fantasy with Lemieux and Crosby but come on lol

Actually Lemieuxs 95/96 is the best season adjusted all time. Again twice while In pursuit of Gretzky most coveted records. 92/215/51 Lemieux was struck down by injury and sickness.

 

[Spirit of 67]

Lemieux was far and away the more talented player.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Biggest Gretzky fan here saying Mario had WAAAY more pure ability. Infact it's undeniable he was the most physically perfect hockey player who ever played.


Gretz had way better vision and elusiveness. But Mario had the speed, shot, size, and finesse.


There's no videos of Gretz undressing 3 Dmen full speed and scoring a goal.

Gretz was about being invisible, then getting the puck, drawing 3 players, then doing a no-look backhand saucer pass to a player in the slot that nobody saw.


Mario was way more talented. Gretz was more of a tactician who played like he had ESP.

 

[kilowatt]

I dont understand the qualifiers people use like "raw skill"

Wtf does that mean

Gretzky did things no one else could, Lemieux included.

No one will ever repeat them.

“Raw skill” means “I like Lemieux more, but I don’t have any numbers to back it up”.

 

[nyhabsfan]

The real question is if you could pick one player to start your team who would it be.
Of course you can't go wrong with either.

I would take Super Mario.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

“Raw skill” means “I like Lemieux more, but I don’t have any numbers to back it up”.

Raw skills are things like speed, shot, stickhandling finesse, puck protection.

Lemieux was the best of all time.


Vision elusiveness hockey IQ and on-ice awareness aren't raw skills. But they're what made Gretz the better player.

 

[bobholly39]

Their mutual seasons are a 6:6 tie:

1984/85
Gretzky 80 73+135=208 (2.60 ppg)
Lemieux 73 43+57=100 (1.37 ppg)

1985/86
Gretzky 80 52+163=215 (2.69)
Lemieux 79 48+93=141 (1.78)

1986/87
Gretzky 79 62+121=183 (2.32)
Lemieux 63 54+53=107 (1.70)

1987/88
Lemieux 77 70+98=168 (2.18)
Gretzky 64 40+109=149 (2.33)

1988/89
Lemieux 76 85+114=199 (2.62)
Gretzky 78 41+122=163 (2.15)

1989/90
Gretzky 73 40+102=142 (1.95)
Lemieux 59 45+78=123 (2.08)

1990/91
Gretzky 78 41+122=163 (2.09)
Lemieux 26 19+26=45 (1.73)

1991/92
Lemieux 64 44+87=131 (2.05)
Gretzky 74 31+90=121 (1.64)

1992/93
Lemieux 60 69+91=160 (2.67)
Gretzky 45 16+49=65 (1.44)

1993/94
Gretzky 81 38+92=130 (1.60)
Lemieux 22 17+20=37 (1.68)

1995/96
Lemieux 70 69+92=161 (2.30)
Gretzky 80 23+79=102 (1.28)

1996/97
Lemieux 76 50+72=122 (1.61)
Gretzky 82 25+72=97 (1.18)

Lemieux didn't start his career as good as Gretzky (arguably not even as good as Crosby/McDavid). "Peak" Lemieux - at his very best - really started around 1988. So when comparing overall career that's obviously a net benefit for Gretzky who was much better than day 1 - but when you want to compare them "at their very best" - you really need to start at around ~1988 for Lemieux. Too many injuries in those years after hurt him so we didn't really get to see him at his best in full seasons unfortunately, to see what he might do.

I think between 1989 and ~1994 Lemieux could have beaten some of Gretzky's single season records if he was healthy. He absolutely had it in him - the goal and point record (not 163 assists). It doesn't mean he 100% does it - but flip a coin, 50/50, as he had the ability to.

As to the actual OP question - my answer is Lemieux. I think it's generally agreed that between Orr and Lemieux - they are the 2 most 'talented' players ever. Gretzky isn't far behind at #3 - but he is behind. Gretzky was definitely still the better overall player - as he accomplished way more with what he had, but in terms of pure talent/ability it's Lemieux over Gretzky

 

[bobholly39]

“Raw skill” means “I like Lemieux more, but I don’t have any numbers to back it up”.

No. Some Gretzky fans get way too defensive at times.

Alexei Kovalev had a ton of "raw skill". Heck Kovalev may have more "raw skill" than a player like Mark Messier even. But Messier >>>>> Kovalev overall. It's not the same thing.

 

[TheGuiminator]

Lemieux was more talented, but Gretzky was the better player

 

[Ivan13]

In general, if you are picking Lemieux over Gretzky, you are picking flash over substance, which is something this site often does. Most notable example of this is some people taking Forsberg over Sakic. Not that it means Foppa and Mario didn't have plenty of substance themselves.

 

[Craig Button]

In general, if you are picking Lemieux over Gretzky, you are picking flash over substance, which is something this site often does. Most notable example of this is some people taking Forsberg over Sakic. Not that it means Foppa and Mario didn't have plenty of substance themselves.

Or they just have eyes.

 

[Spade]

Question isn't worded that well. If we're talking most effective hockey player then the answer is Wayne. You can make the argument that Gretzky isn't the most gifted player to ever play outside of having the best hockey IQ of all time, but there's no denying that he was easily the most efficient player at using the skills he did have. Just a monstrous producer who honestly fell just a little short of his full potential due to injuries.

How I interpreted it is which player had more sheer potential as a hockey player. The answer to that is Mario. He is still the most gifted overall athlete to ever wear an NHL uniform and if he didn't run into injuries and took training and physical care more seriously earlier in his career he'd be at least equal to Gretzky rather than consistently ranked behind him. He was a big bodied beast with the skating, hockey sense and hands of the best 5'10" offensive juggernauts in the game. If he wanted to do something, there was absolutely nothing you could do to stop him. The criticism of Lemieux has always been that he didn't always necessarily want to do certain things, or was stopped by things outside of circumstance.

Someone put it best earlier but I'll reiterate: Lemieux is the closest thing to a perfect NHL talent as we've seen; but, if his peak is a 100, due to injuries and laziness he might only have pulled together an 80/100 in terms of actually achieving the full capability of this intangible "best player ever" ideal. Gretzky probably would be a 95/100 on this hypothetical talent scale but was able to access more of his full potential for any number of reasons so sits at a 90/100.

 

[RSPens]

Gretzky did what he did by being a natural athlete, but he also worked hard and trained better than most other players of his era. Lemieux was a natural athlete that...smoked and hated the gym. So since the question is pure ability, the answer has to be Lemieux, as his pure ability put him in this conversation.

 

[K Fleur]

What about impure ability?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Their mutual seasons are a 6:6 tie:

1984/85
Gretzky 80 73+135=208 (2.60 ppg)
Lemieux 73 43+57=100 (1.37 ppg)

1985/86
Gretzky 80 52+163=215 (2.69)
Lemieux 79 48+93=141 (1.78)

1986/87
Gretzky 79 62+121=183 (2.32)
Lemieux 63 54+53=107 (1.70)

1987/88
Lemieux 77 70+98=168 (2.18)
Gretzky 64 40+109=149 (2.33)

1988/89
Lemieux 76 85+114=199 (2.62)
Gretzky 78 41+122=163 (2.15)

1989/90
Gretzky 73 40+102=142 (1.95)
Lemieux 59 45+78=123 (2.08)

1990/91
Gretzky 78 41+122=163 (2.09)
Lemieux 26 19+26=45 (1.73)

1991/92
Lemieux 64 44+87=131 (2.05)
Gretzky 74 31+90=121 (1.64)

1992/93
Lemieux 60 69+91=160 (2.67)
Gretzky 45 16+49=65 (1.44)

1993/94
Gretzky 81 38+92=130 (1.60)
Lemieux 22 17+20=37 (1.68)

1995/96
Lemieux 70 69+92=161 (2.30)
Gretzky 80 23+79=102 (1.28)

1996/97
Lemieux 76 50+72=122 (1.61)
Gretzky 82 25+72=97 (1.18)

So if you take away 5 of Gretzky's Hart seasons, they are arguably tied.

Gee that sounds fair.

Carry on.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Healthier? Yes. Better lmfao no

Gretzky was better though. He’s the one with the most hardware and the most records. Lemieux isn’t.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Mario Lemieux: the greatest player of all time if you discount other players abilities and situations, or only apply them to Lemieux.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Lemieux had more god-given talent than Gretzky and I'm not even sure you can debate it.

Wayne was a chess player, not the best of a specific ability.

True but people tend to overplay Lemieux's physical attributes (as amazing as they are). It's his hockey iq that makes him a generational player, it's 2nd only to Gretzky.