Who Had More Pure Ability: Gretzky Or Lemieux?

[oXo Cube]

Those awards aren’t comparable.

Not to mention Wayne only having 2 is close to inexplicable.

At the very least he was jobbed in 1984.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Only fair arguments from me. I rightly critiqued you for the Rodman comment. Sorry you are so overly sensitive.

You don’t seem to think I know anything about basketball, so why even waste time responding?

 

[Steven Toast]

You don’t seem to think I know anything about basketball, so why even waste time responding?

Because your Rodman comment was pretty ignorant.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Because your Rodman comment was pretty ignorant.

Pretending Rodman is near Messier and Coffey level, is what’s really ignorant.

 

[The Abusement Park]

He was a great defensive player. Definitely not the best all time. Mutombo, Wallace, prime Howard, Leonard, Olajuwon, were all better imo.

I think Jordan won 7 straight scoring titles, so he was really unmatched too.

I just don’t think that Bulls teams win any championships without Jordan where as that Oilers team probably wins 2, or 3 without Gretzky.

I mean we're talking about a top 5 defensive player of all time basically and that's not even including Pippen who is also one of the greatest players of all time. Also we can't forget about Kerr who was a huge factor in changing the 3 point line. It's not like MJ was doing this all on his own, but that's not a slight no GOAT in any team sport does it alone.

MJ and Gretz have the same amount of scoring titles but Gretzky's lead on everyone in points is literally unobtainable. No one in the NBA has as many records as Gretz does as well.


This comes down to the differences in sports imo. One player makes a much bigger difference in basketball and having a big time superstar is much more important than a deep team.

 

[Steven Toast]

Pretending Rodman is near Messier and Coffey level, is what’s really ignorant.

Why misrepresent what I said? I critiqued you for dismissing Rodman for only have 10ppg once. When he was know for rebounding. Again this is equivalent to dismissing Chara for not scoring goals.

Im just going to repost my original comment.

Comparing greats in hockey and basketball is apples to oranges. A single great player in basketball has far more ability to tilt a game. There are going to be playing 3/4 or more of the available time.

Did the 80's Oilers have more depth than the 90's bulls? Sure. Hockey teams by definition always have more depth, so this really isn't a fair question. 4 lines playing more or less equal time vs starters playing most of the game. Its a fundamental difference in how teams are structured.

The bottom line is Gretzky is the near unanimous GOAT in hockey MJ is not nearly as unanimous.

Again, sorry if you find disagreement condescending.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I mean we're talking about a top 5 defensive player of all time basically and that's not even including Pippen who is also one of the greatest players of all time. Also we can't forget about Kerr who was a huge factor in changing the 3 point line. It's not like MJ was doing this all on his own, but that's not a slight no GOAT in any team sport does it alone.

MJ and Gretz have the same amount of scoring titles but Gretzky's lead on everyone in points is literally unobtainable. No one in the NBA has as many records as Gretz does as well.


This comes down to the differences in sports imo. One player makes a much bigger difference in basketball and having a big time superstar is much more important than a deep team.

He definitely had a strong supporting cast, I just don’t think the Bulls win a title without Jordan.

And yeah, it’s tough to compare players in basketball and hockey. The superstar basketball player is always going to be more important to his team.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Why misrepresent what I said? I critiqued you for dismissing Rodman for only have 10ppg once. When he was know for rebounding. Again this is equivalent to dismissing Chara for not scoring goals.

Im just going to repost my original comment.



Again, sorry if you find disagreement condescending.

I knew Rodman was elite defensively, but it doesn’t take away from the fact that he didn’t bring much in terms of scoring. Great rebounder and defender.

But, the fact that he didn’t score much means you can’t put him up with the all-time great players imo. There’s plenty of elite offensive players who played great defence.

 

[Steven Toast]

I knew Rodman was elite defensively, but it doesn’t take away from the fact that he didn’t bring much in terms of scoring. Great rebounder and defender.

But, the fact that he didn’t score much means you can’t put him up with the all-time great players imo. There’s plenty of elite offensive players who played great defence.

Ok, we will disagree strongly then.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Gretzky - best team sports athlete of all time, unmatched ability but Mario comes closest

If you took away all of Gretzky's goals he'd still have the most points of all time. He is also the all-time leader in goals scored. Mind-boggling stats that get underrated

There's little to no doubt he's the greatest hockey player. But was he better as a player than Michael Jordan, Mario Lemieux or Bobby Orr? Not necessarily.

 

[pcruz]

Lemieux missed 3.5 years and came back at 35 and was immediately the best player in the world. That is talent. Wayne could not have done the same. I’m sure Lemieux could still rack up a good amount of points on the pp. TODAY

I voted Mario, but this just isn’t true.

Wayne would have been the best player of any era regardless of the break he took.

I just think Mario was scarier to face than Wayne was. One would destroy your team using everyone on the ice against you, the other would just “decide to beat you and your team” either on his own or with someone else.

Wayne made those around him improve more than Mario did. They both helped those around them, but Gretzky did it more.

Mario could be nearly as helpful to the teammates, but was more individualist than Gretzky.

Based on the fact that they both topped out nearly at the same level - 215 vs 199 - I have to believe that as individuals, Mario was greater.

Put it this way.
I would rather pay to watch Mario than Wayne.
I would prefer Wayne on my team.


The difference between these 2, to me, is minuscule.
All the distinctions I saw in them are so small, that they could be easily ignored in the grand scheme of things.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Mario would win the skills competition, but Wayne had the mind/vision.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

What does this even mean? Pure ability? Lemieux had better hands and maybe a better scoring touch and was bigger, but it ends there.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Lemieux was the ultimate physical package, Wayne was almost as talented but was more intelligent. The hockey IQ was the difference

 

[authentic]

One season. Wow. That means he must have been totally superior. Next

Read the post I was responding to. He said Gretzky was better and it wasn't close, and that also wasn't the only season Lemieux was better. Lemieux was better from that season going forward whenever he was fully healthy, and it wasn't just due to Gretzky aging. Lemieux was better when the league got better, he was bigger, he was more skilled, he was only slightly less intelligent on the ice. He became a better overall player than Gretzky was, the league was just drastically more competitive and better all around in the 90s than it was in the 80s.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

He definitely had a strong supporting cast, I just don’t think the Bulls win a title without Jordan.

And yeah, it’s tough to compare players in basketball and hockey. The superstar basketball player is always going to be more important to his team.

No NBA team in at least the last 40 years would have won the title without their best player

 

[McFlash97]

Mario had size , reach, stickhandling.

Wayne had agility was faster and better passer.

Mario had a better wrist shot , Wayne better slapshot

Mario was stronger, Wayne was slightly smarter at avoiding getting hit.

No one trumps the other. They were both above and beyond. Trancendant.

Gretzky edges Mario at thier absolute peak.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Mario had size , reach, stickhandling.

Wayne had agility was faster and better passer.

Mario had a better wrist shot , Wayne better slapshot

Mario was stronger, Wayne was slightly smarter at avoiding getting hit.

No one trumps the other. They were both above and beyond. Trancendant.

Gretzky edges Mario at thier absolute peak.

How does his peak edge Mario?

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

How does his peak edge Mario?

215>199

As stated before, Lemieuxs best season, was Gretzkys 7th.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

215>199

As stated before, Lemieuxs best season, was Gretzkys 7th.

So Kucherov has peaked higher than Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

The simplest evidence for Gretzky having the highest peak is the fact that Gretzky has all four of the highest scoring seasons between them. And six of the top seven.

Anticipated response #1 - Gretzky had the benefit of starting his career in a higher-scoring era. Fair enough. Looking at hockey-reference.com's adjusted stats - Gretzky has the top two seasons between them, and six of the top eight. So it gets them closer, but Gretzky's still ahead.

Anticipated response #2 - Lemieux was always injured, but he matched Gretzky's per-game ability. Not true. Looking at points per game - Gretzky has the two best seasons between them. And seven of the top nine.

Anticipated response #3 - Gretzky started his career on an all-star team. That's false. The 1980 Oilers were an expansion team. The best players (after Gretzky) were Blair MacDonald and Stan Weir. If you've never heard of them, I've made my point. Gretzky still tied for the league lead in scoring at age 19.

Anticipated response #4 - Lemieux's highlights reel on YouTube is nicer. That point's true; but it doesn't mean he has a higher peak.

I'm not talking about defensive play, because there isn't much to choose from between them. And I'm not going to bother bring up the playoffs or international tournaments, because these are both very clearly in Gretzky's favour.

The best we can say about Lemieux is, for his best couple of seasons, he was very close to Gretzky at his peak. But there's no information that suggests that Lemieux had the better peak.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

So Kucherov has peaked higher than Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin?

Focus on Gretzky and Lemieux, instead of switching the goal posts like you always do.

Tell you what: you try explaining why Lemieux is the better hockey player. But you can’t use the words “what” “if” “Injury”.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Focus on Gretzky and Lemieux, instead of switching the goal posts like you always do.

Tell you what: you try explaining why Lemieux is the better hockey player. But you can’t use the words “what” “if” “Injury”.

Your just using a raw total so I did the same

 

[Steven Toast]

So Kucherov has peaked higher than Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin?

If Kuch had 4 seasons in 5 years better than Crosby/Malkin/Ovi ever did, yeah.

Your just using a raw total so I did the same

Whereas you use raw totals comparing 66 best season to 99 7th best...

 

[Voight]

Rodman averaged more than 10 points like once his whole career.

Those Oilers teams had way more talent than the Bulls squads imo.

Jordan won finals MVP every time his team won a championship. Wayner only won the Smyth twice. Jordan was more of a part of the Bulls success than Gretzky was for the Oilers.

A lot of that is because hockey is more of a team game than Basketball, but I do think there is a case for Jordan as the best player ever in team sports.

Oilers winning without him proves that point, while the Bulls without MJ made it as far as round 2.

Not to mention Wayne only having 2 is close to inexplicable.

At the very least he was jobbed in 1984.

Voter fatigue is much more common in the NHL. It even transcends positions - arguably Crawford should have won the CS in 2013 but there was no chance a goalie was going to get it 3 years in a row.

MJ, Olajuwon, Shaq, Kobe, Bron and KD all have 2 or more consecutive FMVP in the last 30 years alone (accounts for half of all FMVP's awarded).