Who do you blame? JR or Muller?

Oenatzu

Chad-in-the-Box
Mar 7, 2010
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This organization could definitely benefit from a change on the top and an injection of new blood as most of the people in charge of the hockey operations (GM, "the directors" and the scouts) have been working together for a really long time. If and when Francis some day becomes the next GM I really hope he goes outside of the organization to find the second in command and not just promote one of his old teammates to fill the vacancy to get some new ideas to the mix. There are things in the organization that could definitely be done better and it seems like they need to bring in someone who can see the faults and maybe even do something about them.

Some of the current management have been together in the organization for over 15 years and most for close to 10 years. And though ice hockey is naturally a quite small business I find it weird that there haven't been more personnel changes in so long time.
 
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soverc

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Eric Staal is who I give the blame to. Eric is not a leader and that with the country club atmospshere (no media pressure 'nice fans') I dont see the team character changing while he is here.

I would like to see E.Staal, Ward and Ruutu gone, I say this not because I dislike them but the time has come. Trade any of them for a bag of pucks, just free up the space.

KEEP Muller I would like to see one more year befor we throw him out. If at the end of November next year and we are .500, that would be the time for him to go.

KEEP Rutherfords 'body of work' is not something to complain about to much until the last 5 years, altho this past summer was brillent (or lucky).
 

Sens1Canes2

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May 13, 2007
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I really don't think any answer is out of bounds. You really could go a number of ways - trade the high-priced stars and completely rebuild, fire the coaching staff, relieve JR of his duties. I don't think any of those are outrageous. It all depends what PK has the stomach for...
 

Zombie Mike Murphy

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Mar 18, 2011
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I can't pin this year on JR. The moves he made (Sekera, Gerbe, Malhotra, Khudobin) have all been relative home runs. He can't make the deals that aren't there.
 

Finlandia WOAT

js7.4x8fnmcf5070124
May 23, 2010
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I blame for Muller for trying to run a breakout system that relies on a player in the neutral zone tipping a breakout pass from the defensive zone into the offensive zone. It very rarely works, and most often only stymies our breakout as the attacking forwards lose all speed in gaining the offensive zone because the pass/tip did not work.

That said, this a personnel problem. If we had defensemen beyond John Michael Liles that are capable of such passes with routine consistency, it would actually be a very effective system. Oh well.

I also think special teams is an issue that can be laid with him. I get the sense that Muller is trying to recreate ES on the PP, and that is killing the flow because we try to gain the zone as if it were ES. And while our breakout plan works much better on the PP, it is still ineffective in the long run.

When we are actually able to get set up, then it's not too bad. And again, how much of this is a personnel problem rather than a Muller problem?

I don't blame JR. After the playoff loss in 2009 to the Pens, JR tried to add some veteran support and some depth. He judged that this core had at least one more good run in them and needed some veteran support to get them over the hump.

He was wrong, and the disaster that was the 2009-2010 season occurred.

After that, JR went into retool mode. IIRC, he basically said this at the deadline of 2010, where he traded pretty much everyone he could. I think if he had said we were going into retool mode and had neglected to name Chad as one of his "untouchables" :)facepalm:), then the current situation would be much better accepted.

Since then, we have replaced nearly everyone of that core. The only players left from the 2009 playoff run are E. Staal, Ward and Ruutu, with the 'Canes in the process of trying to dump Ruutu on anyone that will take him. We did a fairly effective retool IMO, and have gathered a good nucleus of talent- the Staal's, Semin, Skinner, Faulk, Sekera and Ward/Khudobin, with Murphy and Lindholm waiting in the wings. That is generally accepted as a core of a team that should, at least, be competing for a playoff spot- and they are.

But my question to JR is: Is the retool finished? If the answer is "yes", then he should be fired. This core is good- but this team is not. We need depth. The Hurricanes may have some of the best upfront talent in the League, but they also have one of the worst bottom-9's in the League. Outside of Skinner and J. Staal, we get next to no production from that group. If our top line/Skinner/J. Staal is not scoring 3 goals a game or more, we aren't going to consistently win beyond when those players go on hot streaks. Much like we saw in January and December.

The good news is that getting depth scorers is much easier then getting high class players that JR has acquired since 2010, as in Skinner, Semin, Faulk and J. Staal. On the other hand, you could argue that this lack of depth is JR's fault. Signing Ruutu to a contract and watching him decline. Signing Ward to that contract and watching him decline- though I'm much more forgiving of the Ward signing, since he had 3 excellent seasons after that signing. In 2010-2011, he had an elite season, which many people forget. Our drafting and development; if Boychuk and Dalpe had developed to their full potential, this would not be an issue. The only players we have gotten out of the AHL recently are Bellemore and Bowman, both of whom provide adequate for their roles at best for this team.

JR must go into this offseason with the intention of bolstering out bottom lines. I'm not comfortable until we can have games where Staal's and Co. don't show up and we still win because our bottom lines picked up the slack. This is almost contingent on getting rid of Ruutu, but if we have to package assets to get someone to take him, so be it.

If he doesn't do that, then I will jump on the "Fire JR" bandwagon.
 
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raynman

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Jan 20, 2013
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Big picture JR is at fault. I think he really thought this was the year they make the playoffs and maybe make some noise once there. Players have been hurt or haven't contributed the way they are supposed to. Can't really blame him for that but he did hire a coach who I think isn't a good fit for this team. I'm not saying Muller isn't a good coach, just that he seems to be a player's coach and as the team is constructed they might need more of a "motivator" type of coach. That's just what I see but I'm sure I could totally be off base. Wouldn't be the first time.

Any way you cut it this offseason is going to be interesting as all get out. Especially if they flame out and don't put up a fight.
 

A Star is Burns

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We could probably afford to have a few more scouts if we didn't hand out cushy, useless jobs to a lot of our old players. Another reason why whenever Rutherford goes, that he needs to be replaced with someone who has no emotional ties to our former players. Someone from outside the organization. I love those guys for what they did for us on the ice, but I feel like they need to go. Our whole staff needs to go.
 

Sens1Canes2

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May 13, 2007
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We could probably afford to have a few more scouts if we didn't hand out cushy, useless jobs to a lot of our old players. Another reason why whenever Rutherford goes, that he needs to be replaced with someone who has no emotional ties to our former players. Someone from outside the organization. I love those guys for what they did for us on the ice, but I feel like they need to go. Our whole staff needs to go.

I only know one guy in the Canes organization, but I like to compare what I know here to what I know in Ottawa, which is a lot. When Pierre Dorion was the director of Player Personnel, he was on the road seemingly full time. Watching junior games, NHL games, tournaments overseas. Everything. And the Sens have plenty of scouts too, but Dorion would do his own thing. Never a bad thing to get more opinions.

My question is, who does this for the Canes? Who travels 250-300 days out of the year watching all the hockey he can?
 

A Star is Burns

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That bit with Kron may be true. And I wasn't even thinking about him, since he seems to perhaps be a real scout now. I meant guys in positions like Wesley, Stillman, Brind'Amour, and Francis that haven't seemed to add a whole lot, at least in the way of results. If we didn't hand jobs to all of them, maybe we could afford more scouts.
 

bleedgreen

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I only know one guy in the Canes organization, but I like to compare what I know here to what I know in Ottawa, which is a lot. When Pierre Dorion was the director of Player Personnel, he was on the road seemingly full time. Watching junior games, NHL games, tournaments overseas. Everything. And the Sens have plenty of scouts too, but Dorion would do his own thing. Never a bad thing to get more opinions.

My question is, who does this for the Canes? Who travels 250-300 days out of the year watching all the hockey he can?

That's hitting the nail on the head. If you want diamonds in the rough you have to get out and bird dog them. We don't do that. Kron living in Raleigh. All the old boys living off the team. I get the concept of pushing a winning atmosphere by keeping around a few that have won but I agree that we need some fresh blood. How about people with jobs throughout the entire organization that can lose those jobs when we suck? That would be interesting motivation.
 

Sasha Cares

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Sep 25, 2006
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We have to be on the verge of a complete organizational shift... I really think by next fall we will have a new coach, GM, and the team will look drastically different... To me, everyone but Faulk should be available and our scouting department dismantled and rebuilt...
 

Sens1Canes2

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May 13, 2007
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We have to be on the verge of a complete organizational shift... I really think by next fall we will have a new coach, GM, and the team will look drastically different... To me, everyone but Faulk should be available and our scouting department dismantled and rebuilt...

No argument here.
 

Joe McGrath

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Oct 29, 2009
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All the love for Faulk is just comical. Why Faulk over Lindholm, Skinner or Muphy? Or even Jordan Staal who is just 25 years old...

Faulk over Lindholm and Skinner is maybe debatable. Murphy? A guy who is one year younger than Faulk and in the AHL vs. a guy who just made the US Olympic team? If Ryan Murphy played Justin Faulk's minutes this team would be the ****ing Sabres. Faulk hasn't been that unbelievable #1 defenseman some on here think he is or is going to be, but he is way more important to this franchise than Ryan Murphy.
 

Sens1Canes2

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May 13, 2007
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All the love for Faulk is just comical. Why Faulk over Lindholm, Skinner or Muphy? Or even Jordan Staal who is just 25 years old...

I was more meaning the new coach/new GM/trade a bunch of players theory.

I view Faulk as a decent first pairing guy, with a lot of potential for improvement especially in his offensive game. You can see flashes here and there, but no real consistency in that phase. As far as the "love" goes...I was the one saying throughout the Olympics that there wasn't a clear reason that Faulk "deserved to play" over others, so pump the brakes on my apparent love for Faulk please.

Had an interesting exchange with a buddy of mine re. ownership of this team and a potential GM move. He thinks that PK would be hesitant to hire a new guy because it would open up the books, so to speak, and make public that he's been losing money for years, and this year has been the worst by far. Even with the new TV money. The new minority owners were a last-gasp attempt to enable the team to borrow money at a better rate (as PK had lost the access to really good interest rates). He no longer has any income, has an expensive wife and four kids. He fired his son and is suing Compuware. Losing money every year hurts, no matter how rich you are. All of this adds up, HE THINKS, to PK trying to get the equity out of the team that he has right now.

Again it's his theory, just floated over a diet coke. Not anything too "insider" but there's a little bit of knowledge on his part re. the team. Oh, and also adding to the "smoke, fire" side of things - PK has been a ghost all year. Never see him. It's just a theory, but one the more I thought about, the more it makes some sense.
 

Identity404

I'm not superstitious, but I am a little stitious
Nov 5, 2005
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Had an interesting exchange with a buddy of mine re. ownership of this team and a potential GM move. He thinks that PK would be hesitant to hire a new guy because it would open up the books, so to speak, and make public that he's been losing money for years, and this year has been the worst by far. Even with the new TV money.

PK and JR have always been very public about the fact that the only way this team can make money is if they make the playoffs and go fairly deep.
 

go comets

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Jul 10, 2013
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well there are multiple issues with this team. the power play has been a total bust for how long now??? the team leaders are over paid and under achieve. this in turn leaves little cap space for the rest of the team. the main question is, how the &$%$%#@% does anyone fix it. no doubt that the pay scale is way out of wack. i dont see any staals leaving so that means 2 of the other overpaids need to go. semin,ward and skinner. for me, id keep skinner. get whatever you can for ward, and semin will get some return. the entire organization couldnt develop talent and needs a complete overhaul on that end, clean house in charlotte. and like others have said, they need blood from outside the organization. and a coach that can light a fire under some butts. i got a funny feeling someone like tortarella(without the sideshows) would be perfect. but a coach like that would make e staal cry............
 

DaveG

Noted Jerk
Apr 7, 2003
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We had a coach like that, Laviolette, mind you the game was more wide open at that point but Staal had some offensive success under Lavi. Only problem is it doesn't matter who the coach is, Eric's going to be Eric. A guy that produces at around a point per game level but that is overpaid by about 1.5 per year to do it since he seemingly only goes into beast mode in the playoffs, which is something we never make.
 

Sens1Canes2

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May 13, 2007
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PK and JR have always been very public about the fact that the only way this team can make money is if they make the playoffs and go fairly deep.

True but how long can that go on? That's kind of my point. People with lots of money don't like to lose money.
 

DaveG

Noted Jerk
Apr 7, 2003
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I was more meaning the new coach/new GM/trade a bunch of players theory.

I view Faulk as a decent first pairing guy, with a lot of potential for improvement especially in his offensive game. You can see flashes here and there, but no real consistency in that phase. As far as the "love" goes...I was the one saying throughout the Olympics that there wasn't a clear reason that Faulk "deserved to play" over others, so pump the brakes on my apparent love for Faulk please.

Had an interesting exchange with a buddy of mine re. ownership of this team and a potential GM move. He thinks that PK would be hesitant to hire a new guy because it would open up the books, so to speak, and make public that he's been losing money for years, and this year has been the worst by far. Even with the new TV money. The new minority owners were a last-gasp attempt to enable the team to borrow money at a better rate (as PK had lost the access to really good interest rates). He no longer has any income, has an expensive wife and four kids. He fired his son and is suing Compuware. Losing money every year hurts, no matter how rich you are. All of this adds up, HE THINKS, to PK trying to get the equity out of the team that he has right now.

Again it's his theory, just floated over a diet coke. Not anything too "insider" but there's a little bit of knowledge on his part re. the team. Oh, and also adding to the "smoke, fire" side of things - PK has been a ghost all year. Never see him. It's just a theory, but one the more I thought about, the more it makes some sense.

This type of thing more then anything is why I think all we're going to see is a rearranging of the deck chairs in Raleigh. JR will "step down" to become Team President, Ron Francis will step into the GM role, and the books will never have to be opened since it's technically just a rearranging of roles within the company Edmonton style.

Funny how the two franchises that were in the Cup Finals against eachother less then a decade ago are now considered two of the biggest examples of ineptitude in hockey now that the Leafs are no longer garbage and A$G offloaded the Thrashers to Winnipeg. At least there's always Florida to make us look just a little bit better in the East.
 

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