Line Combos: Which trade makes our lineup better?

[Panda Bear]

Hall trade over here.

I'll take the high quality third line that may as well be a second line, the cap space, and the player who actually defends the net better. Better team balance.

I'll wave goodbye to what would be the most exciting "let's win this ****ing game" unit though.

 

[Replacement*]

So what you're saying is you're going to ignore the results of this poll because it doesn't suit your argument. This and your "age range" argument in this thread are beneath you, Replacement.

Most people believe that Lucic wouldn't be signed here if Hall wasn't moved.

.

Heh, would whining with sour grapes suffice? heh.

jk aside the poll numbers in this one are lower than any of the recent polls. That suggests people not voting. Also the comments in the thread supporting the Subban thread or other options don't match the poll results, multiple people opposed that are commenting didn't vote at the time I made the comment, so yeah, some people didn't vote initially.

I'm open about this, I despise Lucic as a player. For sure I'm not going to be a huge fan of that option. I don't like Subban either, but he plays the game the right way and he's a lock that he has what we need.

The age thing has more to do with shelf life, you know, of humans and older age cohorts even being around when this rebuild builds into something. As one gets one older one wonders about longevity in relation to this Oilchange. Aside from the tongue and cheek version that's what I mean. the Oilers, other than a few seasons have sucked for 25 yrs. A quarter century. Hopefully some time in the next decade its different and the team is competitive. The continual rolling back the rebuild clock is tiresome. Holding onto ever more assets just keeps that metronome clicking into some vague future point. I'm done waiting.

 

[Replacement*]

Hall trade over here.

I'll take the high quality third line that may as well be a second line, the cap space, and the player who actually defends the net better. Better team balance.

I'll wave goodbye to what would be the most exciting "let's win this ****ing game" unit though.

Now what actual player would that be. Other than the built up narrative about that player. I'm hoping you mean Larsson, and not Nuge.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Heh, would whining with sour grapes suffice? heh.

jk aside the poll numbers in this one are lower than any of the recent polls. That suggests people not voting. Also the comments in the thread supporting the Subban thread or other options don't match the poll results, multiple people opposed that are commenting didn't vote, so yeah, some people didn't vote.

I'm open about this, I despise Lucic as a player. For sure I'm not going to be a huge fan of that option. I don't like Subban either, but he plays the game the right way.

The age thing has more to do with shelf life, you know, of humans and older age cohorts even being around when this rebuild builds into something. As one gets one older one wonders about longevity in relation to this Oilchange. Aside from the tongue and cheek version that's what I mean. the Oilers, other than a few seasons have sucked for 25 yrs. A quarter century. Hopefully some time in the next decade its different and the team is competitive. The continual rolling back the rebuild clock is tiresome. Holding onto ever more assets just keeps that metronome clicking into some vague future point. I'm done waiting.

I mean... That's the problem for years. Holding onto our assets for years until their value depreciated into nothing.

 

[Replacement*]

I mean... That's the problem for years. Holding onto our assets for years until their value depreciated into nothing.

You don't get it. Mostly the team keeps getting younger. (not looking at Lucic who I think is just here for a couple years despite the contract) With this year and last year just a raft of players that are green, that we have to develop again for years. We've been doing this since Gagner was a rookie. Pure development, a decade of player development. this is rebuild 3 or 4 by now, I've lost count.

One poll option is clearly a prospect retention/youth acquisition option, the other is a veteran retention/acquisition option. I know the one I prefer.

 

[voxel]

With the Subban trade... does that even work cap-wise? And does that mean we expose another forward in the expansion draft?

 

[Panda Bear]

Now what actual player would that be. Other than the built up narrative about that player. I'm hoping you mean Larsson, and not Nuge.

Larsson.

Players typically get built up narratives about themselves based upon their talents. "Ohhh, Datsyuk is the most magical stickhandler!" "No one can score like Ovechkin!" "Vlasic is one of the best defenders in the game." "That Crosby has the best backhand in the league." "Quick is such a competitor." "Boy can Weber ever rocket the puck."

Well, the narrative about how good Larsson's defensive game is didn't come out of a vacuum either. I suggest watching some of his previous games.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

You don't get it. Mostly the team keeps getting younger. (not looking at Lucic who I think is just here for a couple years despite the contract) With this year and last year just a raft of players that are green, that we have to develop again for years. We've been doing this since Gagner was a rookie. Pure development, a decade of player development. this is rebuild 3 or 4 by now, I've lost count.

One poll option is clearly a prospect retention option, the other is a veteran retention option. I know the one I prefer.

The problem is that maybe our young guys aren't as good as we thought they were. I mean past pick #1 we've hit exactly 1 home run up front and basically nothing on the back end.

The Oilers are a monumental mess and it will take years to clean it up. As much as I'd dream of the Oilers making the playoffs the reality isn't so kind.

29th ****ing place last year, lol what a joke this team is.

 

[Replacement*]

Larsson.

Players typically get built up narratives about themselves based upon their talents. "Ohhh, Datsyuk is the most magical stickhandler!" "No one can score like Ovechkin!" "Vlasic is one of the best defenders in the game." "That Crosby has the best backhand in the league." "Quick is such a competitor."

Well, the narrative about how good Larsson's defensive game didn't come out of a vacuum either. I suggest watching some of his previous games.

I'm fine with this, I'm glad you said Larsson, I appreciate that. I would watch games, really I would, but I don't have Center Ice or anything to view past games. I've watched all the youtubes I can.

 

[Panda Bear]

I'm fine with this, I'm glad you said Larsson, I appreciate that. I would watch games, really I would, but I don't have Center Ice or anything to view past games. I've watched all the youtubes I can.

For some reason I thought you did have that at your disposal. This makes more sense now, somehow.

Nuge tries hard on both sides of the puck, but he's just not assertive enough. If you're going to succeed based on your timing and reads instead of pure stickwork or physical play, then you can't play with doubt.

I think he also picked up some bad "swarm" habits from Eakins in that he doesn't play the pass enough.

EDIT: in defence of Nuge, though, it seems like he sometimes goes to challenge the puck carrier or into a board battle under the assumption that one of his wingers will flit in for support when the puck gets loose, but then the support doesn't happen.

 

[CupofOil]

Drai, and this hasn't been mentioned as much struggled before Hall, and after Hall went cold in last 30 games last season. It was clear Hall wasn't going at the time and less clear how Drai was doing in that period. Became more evident that without brilliant Hall feeds Drai wasn't scoring, although Drai's passing game remained intact. But the scoring hands more than anything worry me. if Drai doesn't score, and is seen as a pass only guy then teams will learn to shut that down.

Pulju? No idea, but we need help NOW not in the future. The last thing we need imo is more developing players on a team loaded with them. Nothing specific against the player, I just think our window should be ramped up/not back, so as to not lose McDavids interest here.

Its all for McDavid that I would want the team to be competitive as soon as this season and not wait until subsequent seasons. There is on paper no way this team makes the playoffs and that's going to weigh on the highly competitive McDavid who by seasons end was showing more frustration in games than Hall typically does.

I see where you're coming from and if we're being honest, there's question marks all over the roster outside of McDavid, Lucic, Eberle, Sekera and a few of the 4th liners, players that are pretty established in their roles and in McDavid's case, a given to be a high level producer barring injury.

All I'm saying is that based on pedigree and skillset, I don't see it taking years for Drai and Pulju to be high level producers and if Drai isn't a high level producer this season, it's going to be trouble for the team.

 

[McDraekke]

You don't get it. Mostly the team keeps getting younger. (not looking at Lucic who I think is just here for a couple years despite the contract) With this year and last year just a raft of players that are green, that we have to develop again for years. We've been doing this since Gagner was a rookie. Pure development, a decade of player development. this is rebuild 3 or 4 by now, I've lost count.

One poll option is clearly a prospect retention/youth acquisition option, the other is a veteran retention/acquisition option. I know the one I prefer.

This is the first time that I've heard people refer to this off-season's moves as continuing the never-ending rebuild. Trading Hall for an established dman is a bigger step ahead of moving away from continuous rebuilding than getting Subban at the cost that we all believe it would have been. It would have gutted our C depth and what paltry D depth we had. IMO, trading Hall (a coveted asset that the young group seemed to want to hold onto forever) for Larsson and signing Lucic is the opposite of what you are suggesting it is.

 

[Replacement*]

This is the first time that I've heard people refer to this off-season's moves as continuing the never-ending rebuild. Trading Hall for an established dman is a bigger step ahead of moving away from continuous rebuilding than getting Subban at the cost that we all believe it would have been. It would have gutted our C depth and what paltry D depth we had. IMO, trading Hall (a coveted asset that the young group seemed to want to hold onto forever) for Larsson and signing Lucic is the opposite of what you are suggesting it is.

Tons of posts here are repeatedly specifically mentioning guys like Klef, Larsson, Drai, Pulju, stepping up and transforming this club. All of these are young players in respect to the positions they play. What do you think it means when teams become increasingly reliant on young players to play huge roles? Look at how the core here is getting younger again since Drai/McDavid/Nurse. Then add a platoon of young D, and Pulju.

Most competitive clubs can raise about 5 youth max at any one time and not see a slide. That's even including bottomsix. The Oilers are headed into a year with around 10-12 very young players for their positions. That's flat out nuts. No team built like that is even in a position to compete.

Conversely KEEPING Hall, adding a Subban, maybe even a Lucic appreciably ramps up our age and veteran experience here. Taylor hall was the incumbent veteran on this team that had been here the whole while. A team with a better mix of veterans to youth in integral positions is better able to compete in NHL.

The readers digest version is do we have 3 established vets in the lineup or Drai, Pulju, Larsson? tbh I feel Nuge's contribution is replaceable.

 

[Replacement*]

I see where you're coming from and if we're being honest, there's question marks all over the roster outside of McDavid, Lucic, Eberle, Sekera and a few of the 4th liners, players that are pretty established in their roles and in McDavid's case, a given to be a high level producer barring injury.

All I'm saying is that based on pedigree and skillset, I don't see it taking years for Drai and Pulju to be high level producers and if Drai isn't a high level producer this season, it's going to be trouble for the team.

I think 45 pts for Drai this year could be optimistic. Probably struggle to get 40. Again I'm a huge fan of him saying that but with linemates like Pouliot, Maroon, who I also like a lot production is going to be limited.

Every sense I'm getting is the team will load up first line with McDavid centering Lucic and Eberle. Its an eggs in one basket approach I wouldn't do, but its McLellans type of thing and its pretty much stated.

That leaves a lot of questions about other line production. We're going to need a huge year from Nuge. I just don't have that hope.

 

[BB88]

Hall trade.

Klef+Larsson makes less than Subban

That's kind of how I look at it.
The Subban trade would have destroyed the (quality) depth and how would the cap situation look like in few years?
The core looks great and the contract situation healthy now.

 

[Up the Irons]

If the 4th was tkachuck/Dubois, id think hard about that subban lineup. With puljujarvi falling to us, the hall trade is superior, no question about it.

Good point. Who knows, maybe PC was waiting at the draft, an when JP dropped he pulled the pin on a Subban deal.

 

[McFlyingV]

I think 45 pts for Drai this year could be optimistic. Probably struggle to get 40. Again I'm a huge fan of him saying that but with linemates like Pouliot, Maroon, who I also like a lot production is going to be limited.

Every sense I'm getting is the team will load up first line with McDavid centering Lucic and Eberle. Its an eggs in one basket approach I wouldn't do, but its McLellans type of thing and its pretty much stated.

That leaves a lot of questions about other line production. We're going to need a huge year from Nuge. I just don't have that hope.

I know you aren't high on Nuge driving a line, but I personally think he's better at it than he gets credit for. He can't do it as the #1 on the team, but he certainly can carry the puck very well through the neutral zone and has great vision to find guys. He won't drive full force like Hall but he has good speed through the neutral zone to open up some space to use his smarts and playmaking. I'd also like us to spread the offence and run pairs of McDavid-Lucic, Nuge-Eberle/Pulju, and Drai-Eberle/Pulju.

As for watching some old game footage without centre ice you can use a site called rutube, its basically a russian youtube that has a lot of archived games. Just google for it and then search for New Jersey Devils 2015/16. There's plenty of games or partial games up there.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Tons of posts here are repeatedly specifically mentioning guys like Klef, Larsson, Drai, Pulju, stepping up and transforming this club. All of these are young players in respect to the positions they play. What do you think it means when teams become increasingly reliant on young players to play huge roles? Look at how the core here is getting younger again since Drai/McDavid/Nurse. Then add a platoon of young D, and Pulju.

Most competitive clubs can raise about 5 youth max at any one time and not see a slide. That's even including bottomsix. The Oilers are headed into a year with around 10-12 very young players for their positions. That's flat out nuts. No team built like that is even in a position to compete.

Conversely KEEPING Hall, adding a Subban, maybe even a Lucic appreciably ramps up our age and veteran experience here. Taylor hall was the incumbent veteran on this team that had been here the whole while. A team with a better mix of veterans to youth in integral positions is better able to compete in NHL.

The readers digest version is do we have 3 established vets in the lineup or Drai, Pulju, Larsson? tbh I feel Nuge's contribution is replaceable.

This absolutely goes more than one way. He and Eberle have been here since 2010 and the team hasn't shown an ounce of improvement...

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

It also fudges the rosters to make the other line up look even worse.

Let's say:

Lineup 1
Lucic Mcd Yak
Maroon RNH Eberle
Poo Drai pulju
Hend letestu kassian

Klefbom larsson
Sekera fayne
Nurse davidson
Reinhart osterle

Vs

Lineup 2

Lucic-Mcd-Eberle
Hall-RNH-Pouliot
Maroon-Letestu-Pakarinen
Hendricks-Lander-Kassian

Sekera-Subban
Davidson-Fayne
Nurse-Reinhart
Osterle

Depth is worse for lineup 2, top end is much better. Only ~$4M in cap space for roster 2.

lol....that top 6 is mighty expensive and not one player is cost controlled...31.7 Million dollars tied up into 6 players with no centre depth and none on the way...

a 14.5 million dollar top pair and very average 2nd pair and an awful 3rd pair

plus, that 4 million in cap space likely goes to Reinhart and Nurses bonuses which makes the space even smaller

all this and it still doesn't guarantee massive improvement and we lose someone very valuable in the expansion draft....no thanks

 

[Replacement*]

I know you aren't high on Nuge driving a line, but I personally think he's better at it than he gets credit for. He can't do it as the #1 on the team, but he certainly can carry the puck very well through the neutral zone and has great vision to find guys. He won't drive full force like Hall but he has good speed through the neutral zone to open up some space to use his smarts and playmaking. I'd also like us to spread the offence and run pairs of McDavid-Lucic, Nuge-Eberle/Pulju, and Drai-Eberle/Pulju.

As for watching some old game footage without centre ice you can use a site called rutube, its basically a russian youtube that has a lot of archived games. Just google for it and then search for New Jersey Devils 2015/16. There's plenty of games or partial games up there.

Nuge is certainly capable and he has the skills. He's such a damn frustrating player to me. I put Nuge and Yak in that camp btw. I'm losing patience with both. They need to put it together now. The club badly needs those contributions. Neither can be looking past them for somebody else to get it done. imo both have issues being consistent go to guys. Not sure what that's due to.

 

[Replacement*]

This absolutely goes more than one way. He and Eberle have been here since 2010 and the team hasn't shown an ounce of improvement...

Well Hall, and Eberle contribute and make the team better than it would be. The tough, i.e. scary, mental exercise comes in imagining how absolutely pathetic watching this club over the last half dozen years without them would be.

The one possible advantage is that I may have been able to switch off by now..

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Well Hall, and Eberle contribute and make the team better than it would be. The tough, i.e. scary, mental exercise comes in imagining how absolutely pathetic watching this club over the last half dozen years without them would be.

The one possible advantage is that I may have been able to switch off by now..

ELPH died years ago sadly. A losing team is a losing team no matter how pretty it is.

Even this year's team was dreadfully boring on a lot of nights. It was fun for awhile imagining all the excitement that would come after years of being the worst team in the league but come to find out it doesn't actually make you any better in the standings.

Fair or not Hall and Eberle are at the forefront of that. It's not their fault the team is garbage but they didn't make it that much better either.

It's scary to think the best team the Oilers have had in the decade of despair is the one that had Penner, Gagner, and Hemsky for a top line. Even funnier because the much praised Souray was absent for the majority of that season.

 

[Replacement*]

lol....that top 6 is mighty expensive and not one player is cost controlled...31.7 Million dollars tied up into 6 players with no centre depth and none on the way...

This is not at all inconsistent with top teams around the league that are, or intend to be competitive. Typically the most money goes to topsix. What do you mean "cost controlled"?

a 14.5 million dollar top pair and very average 2nd pair and an awful 3rd pair

plus, that 4 million in cap space likely goes to Reinhart and Nurses bonuses which makes the space even smaller

all this and it still doesn't guarantee massive improvement and we lose someone very valuable in the expansion draft....no thanks

Do any of us understand the expansion draft and how it goes yet, and what the specific implications to the roster are yet? I don't see a thread here or anybody discussing that much. Next, were these moves made with that in mind?

 

[Replacement*]

ELPH died years ago sadly. A losing team is a losing team no matter how pretty it is.

Even this year's team was dreadfully boring on a lot of nights. It was fun for awhile imagining all the excitement that would come after years of being the worst team in the league but come to find out it doesn't actually make you any better in the standings.

Fair or not Hall and Eberle are at the forefront of that. It's not their fault the team is garbage but they didn't make it that much better either.

It's scary to think the best team the Oilers have had in the decade of despair is the one that had Penner, Gagner, and Hemsky for a top line. Even funnier because the much praised Souray was absent for the majority of that season.

That's an interesting point. But kind of backs my position of having some veterans around. Horcoff was too afairc.

But like I said you can't have 10-12 young developing players in the lineup in the NHL and expect to compete with that lineup. That never happens.

 

[Up the Irons]

What was the ask from Bergevin?

1. RHN, Nurse, Dubois. I say do it

2. RHN, Kelbom, Dubois. Tough. Maybe

3. Drai, nurse, Dubois. Do it

4. Drai, Klefbom, Dubois. No thanx

5. RHN, Nurse, Pulj. Tough. Maybe

6. Drai or RNH, Klefbom, Pulj. Not a chance.


There are many combos. Basically, I would have been loath to move Klefbom and Pulj. And prefer to move Nuge over Drai.