Which team has a better rebuild? Habs vs Red Wings?

[rahad]

1) The Habs finished 18th in the NHL with 59 points in 56 games while two teams missed the playoffs with 60 points

2) that stat is irrelevant regardless because the divisions were insulated with no crossover play.

3) the North was by far the weakest of the 4 divisions that year.

The Habs run was fun but a complete and utter fluke.

LOL! A Florida fan calling our SCF a Fluke.... Yet Florida making the playoff in 2023 and beating Buffalo and Pittsburgh by ONLY 1 POINTS IS OKAY? ONE SINGLE POINT.

92 PTS VS 91 FOR (BUFF AND PITTS)

 

[Lshap]

LOL! A Florida fan calling our SCF a Fluke.... Yet Florida making the playoff in 2023 and beating Buffalo and Pittsburgh by ONLY 1 POINTS IS OKAY? ONE SINGLE POINT.

92 PTS VS 91 FOR (BUFF AND PITTS)

"Fluke" is a default response when someone has no real argument.

 

[Beezeral]

How?

1) Dach returns next year. I know....I know....injuries and all that jazz. He is only one player. I get it.

Dach returns to our 2nd line centre role. Many Habs watchers thought he was trending to be our number 1 centre last year, ahead of Suzuki. He looked that good at times. He is underrated and forgotten around these parts. Him arriving, allows us to move Caufield down to the second line to form 2 x dynamic duos. Slaf and Suzuki + Dach and Caufield.

2) Slaf for the past 2 to 3 months has been on a 70 point pace and is showing no signs of slowing down. I expect his upward trajectory to continue.

3) We have draft capital and young defensive depth with which we can use to add another top 6 forward. Zegras gets mentioned in HfHabs, but it doesn't have to necessarily be him. I suspect that Hughes has another Dach/Newhook trade coming this off season.

4) We have two young players with 20 goal potential in Newhook and Roy who can fill that other top 6 role. Newhook without injuries would have hit 20. He may anchor that third line next year (or second if we don't land the trade above). Roy, I believe if paired with Suzuki and Slaf could challenge for ROY - ambitious, I know, but hey I am a homer.

5) We have cap space. Not only can we try to package draft capital + one of our young defensemen, we also have the cap space to make a splash on the FA market.

6) wily vets. Okay....we all know Gally and Anderson are overpaid and simply bad this year. But, really are they too bad to be fourth line guys? Not on any team. Both play with speed and a little but of grit, and I for one am happy with them on our 4th line, until we need to dump them and free up the space they are eating in a year or two.

7) Young studs on defence.....Not our strongest area....yet.....but Guhle, Reinbacher, Xhekaj, Mailloux and Hutson all have high ceilings. Mailloux has been one of the best D in the AHL. Hutson dominates NCAA for two straight years. Xhekaj will keep you honest. Guhle has shut down freaking McDavid everytime we play them.

8) Sure we don't have Cossa. But, we have two very capable goalies who have been playing beyond their pay grade this year. Monty and Primeau are hungry to make their mark in the NHL. Both have been solid and are just fine. In the wings, we have Fowler and Dobes. Dobes was great in the AHL this year, and Fowler is an NCAA star.

For next year.....I am putting a lot of our success on Dach's ability to spread out the scoring lines.

For the future. We have depth in all positions except forward (which I expect with our first pick).

So this is my homer take.....and this is also how and why. Now....let's wait and see.

Calling WiFi a high upside player kind of says it all.

 

[Mrb1p]

1) The Habs finished 18th in the NHL with 59 points in 56 games while two teams missed the playoffs with 60 points

2) that stat is irrelevant regardless because the divisions were insulated with no crossover play.

3) the North was by far the weakest of the 4 divisions that year.

The Habs run was fun but a complete and utter fluke.

Its a fluke only if you consider that Price couldn't stay healthy for a whole season, which wouldn't be wrong, per say.

You forget that Price had been a top 5 player in the world since 2013. He was just that good and he showed it again in the 2021 post-season.

It's akin to having Crosby miss the season and dropping him in a PO team, it would only be a fluke because they are great players that carry very average rosters.

Calling WiFi a high upside player kind of says it all.

AX is a 3rd pairing D right now, Im not sure what high upside means but he is just scratching the surface of what he is at this point. He's a very good player with untapped offensive potential. Im expecting him to settle in a 2nd pair role sooner than later.

 

[waitin425]

Calling WiFi a high upside player kind of says it all.

Okay....good catch. High upside might be a little strong. But "high impact role player" is not. Xhekaj plays a role and he plays it well.

 

[Beezeral]

"Fluke" is a default response when someone has no real argument.

mediocre underlying numbers, a horrible goal differential, lack of actual talent on the roster, or price going from oft injured to god mode for 2 months and then literally never playing again. take your pick.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Habs. Both are a bit odd- Habs got fooled by that run, somehow, and then quickly corrected their course once it became clear they weren’t actually good. They’ve restocked the pipeline, should be good in a few years.

Detroit rushed shit, and looks headed for mediocrity for quite a while. Trust me, I’m a Sabres fan, I’ve seen things.

 

[Ezekial]

Habs. Both are a bit odd- Habs got fooled by that run, somehow, and then quickly corrected their course once it became clear they weren’t actually good. They’ve restocked the pipeline, should be good in a few years.

Detroit rushed shit, and looks headed for mediocrity for quite a while. Trust me, I’m a Sabres fan, I’ve seen things.

I trust that you've seen things, but I don't think you guys are experts on what makes a team go from really bad to really good. Maybe on what makes a team bad.

 

[Lshap]

mediocre underlying numbers, a horrible goal differential, lack of actual talent on the roster, or price going from oft injured to god mode for 2 months and then literally never playing again. take your pick.

Remove the entire first line, best D, and goalie for the preceding six weeks due to injury and see what that does to the regular season numbers. Not surprisingly, when they returned for the playoffs, the team turned around.

In what way is it relevant that Price didn't play again after that playoffs? Who cares what anyone does after a series?

Weber, Petry, Edmundson, Romanov at D (plus Chiarot, who your GM valued enough to trade us a 1st). Suzuki, Toffoli, Danault, Perry, Caufield, Lehkonen, and prime Gallagher up front. Carey Price in nets.

Not exactly a roster of no-names. So who exactly was a 'fluke'?

 

[Stewie Griffin]

Not exactly a roster of no-names. So who exactly was a 'fluke'?

It was a season where until the 3rd round of the playoffs you only played the same 6 teams over and over again. Props to them for beating VGK in that round, but other than that did they do anything special that whole season? Even then, they missed the playoffs in 2018, 2019, (would have in 2020 if not for the shutdown), and have since missed in 2022, 2023, and 2024.

That's the closest thing you can get to a fluke SCF run.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

I trust that you've seen things, but I don't think you guys are experts on what makes a team go from really bad to really good. Maybe on what makes a team bad.

You know the “takes one to know one” thing? That’s how I feel looking at Detroit- different approaches, but both kinda did things in the middle of a rebuild that maybe stopped progress. In Buffalo’s case it was RoR, then Eichel. With Detroit.. they didn’t really get too many top picks in the first place, but seemed to get some young talent. Then as soon as a few of those dudes looked good they signed free agents, and now it’s maybe not enough. They aren’t likely to get any game changing prospects now, and what they have seems kinda middling.

 

[newfy]

Full blown rebuilds don't work, when is the last time this worked? Probably the Pens or the Hawks. Since then all the teams that took the full blown rebuild failed. Oilers took an eternity and got lucky landing on the best player since Gretzky. Leafs also took an eternity and we all know their record in the series since and then you have the Sabres, Sens and Coyotes that built loosing culture and can't get out of it.

I actually kind of agree with this. I'm not going to say they straight up dont work, but this websites boner for them is pretty ridiculous. The Oilers did it for years, multiple first overall picks in a row, and now getting a guy who will be top 5 all time has led the oilers to one conference final in his almost decade career.

We've all seen how Toronto has turned out with all their star power. One series win to show for it.

The Sabres did the full blown rebuild thing. Drafted at the time probably the greatest american prospect ever, and at another point possibly the greatest Swede prospect of all time... Multiple first and second overall picks doing the full out tank thing and where are they?

In the last 5 years I would actually say the only team thats won a cup through a full blown tear down rebuild is Colorado. The lightning did tank when they got Stammer and Hedman, but that was over a decade before they actually won their cups and I would argue their "full blown" tank job wasnt the actual reason they won. Stammer was on year 12 and played one shift in the finals if I remember correctly

I dont think Detroit or the Habs have the perfect rebuilds going for sure, but I definitely think theyve added enough high end talent that they can over the course of a decade tinker with it and add talent where they can to end up having a chance at a cup in that time.

 

[TopTenPlayz]

It was a season where until the 3rd round of the playoffs you only played the same 6 teams over and over again. Props to them for beating VGK in that round, but other than that did they do anything special that whole season? Even then, they missed the playoffs in 2018, 2019, (would have in 2020 if not for the shutdown), and have since missed in 2022, 2023, and 2024.

That's the closest thing you can get to a fluke SCF run.

Wouldn't call it a fluke SCF run. A fluke would be Price bailing them out game after game, kinda like Halak did in 2010. They outplayed the Leafs in game 5-7 except for the OT in game 6. They could have beat Winnipeg even with Primeau in net. I thought they outplayed Vegas overall. Then got destroyed by Tampa. If they had met the Islanders, i think the Habs could have won the cup that year. I think with their 4D, Price, Danault, Toffoli, Perry, they found a way to tighten up their game and play within their strengths. But Tampa was too good/skilled

 

[Ezekial]

You know the “takes one to know one” thing? That’s how I feel looking at Detroit- different approaches, but both kinda did things in the middle of a rebuild that maybe stopped progress. In Buffalo’s case it was RoR, then Eichel. With Detroit.. they didn’t really get too many top picks in the first place, but seemed to get some young talent. Then as soon as a few of those dudes looked good they signed free agents, and now it’s maybe not enough. They aren’t likely to get any game changing prospects now, and what they have seems kinda middling.

You guys are drafting 1 overall and not getting much results so maybe Yzerman wanting injecting young talent into a group of veterans that can make the playoffs is a better process than sending a bunch of kids to the wolves and hoping they figure it out for a decade. We have some great D pieces and goalie prospects - and some hard to play against young forward prospects. That could equate to a winning team.
The Wings and Sabres have been dealt completely different hands from opposite ends of the deck. One driven by success for a long period that burnt out and put them in shambles and one plagued by failure.

 

[Lshap]

It was a season where until the 3rd round of the playoffs you only played the same 6 teams over and over again. Props to them for beating VGK in that round, but other than that did they do anything special that whole season? Even then, they missed the playoffs in 2018, 2019, (would have in 2020 if not for the shutdown), and have since missed in 2022, 2023, and 2024.

That's the closest thing you can get to a fluke SCF run.

They beat Toronto and Vegas, two teams who were and still are contenders, plus a very good Jets team. It's not like Montreal was in a division with bottom dwellers.

Yeah, the four divisions that season were a one-off. But there have been so many different divisions over the decades - very strong, very weak, everything in between - I really don't see what makes 2021 any less legit.

Montreal was a playoff team through most of the 2010's. They added key vets to the 2021 roster and it paid off, even if wasn't designed to last. Call it the last desperate gasp of a desperate GM. But looking at the talent and experience on that roster, they were built for the playoffs.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Can I vote neither? Both teams have some good pieces but overall their 'cores' are kind of uninspiring. Like I don't think either team is primed to become a top 10 team in the league based on the blueprints they are working off right now. Montreal has more of a clean slate and more time to work on it but are missing a number of foundational pieces. The defence and goaltending is very weak and outside of 3 forwards they don't have a lot to get excited about. Need some of these recent higher picks to pan out in the next few years to have a better outlook on things.

Detroit is further along and on the playoff bubble in a very top heavy, but overall lackluster eastern conference. They need a homerun or two in order to get into the next level.

 

[jetsforever]

Detroit for now

 

[CDN24]

Interesting to compare the two. They are very different. Det obviously started earlier. When the started is not exactly clear. One could argue the 2018 deadline when they dumped Tatar for 3 draft picks was the beginning or go with the hire of Yzerman in 2019. While Montreal started later, Bergevin left way more in the cupboard for his successors than Holland did. Bergevin had kind of been retooling for a while. Unfortunately that next cupboard contained some really bad contracts bergie had signed in recent years.

That said Bergie left
Suzuki - 2017 draft yr acquired by trade
Primeau 2017 draft
Romanov 2018 draft
Harris 2018 draft
Caulfield 2019 draft
Struble 2019 draft
RHP 2019 draft
Guhle 2020 draft
Mailloux 2021
Joshua Roy 2021 (plus Kapanen who may well prove to have value)
Xhekaj - signed as a undrafted free agent by MB

He also left plenty of picks. They pretty much had all their own picks except the 2024 2nd that bergie included in the Dvorak acquisition (the 1st that went there was carolinas) and a bunch of extra mid round picks.

Hughes and Gorton were not starting from scratch.

They then flipped Toffolli for a 1st (used on Mesar), heinaman and a 5th
They flipped Chiarot for a 1st and 4th subsequently using the 1st in Newhook trade
They flipped Lehkonen for Barron and a 2024 2nd
They flipped Kulak for a 2nd (lane Hutson) and a 2024 7th
at the draft they traded Romanov plus a 2022 4th for a 1st then flipped it with a 2022 3rd for Kirby Dach. even with that trade they still had 2 2022 3rds and 2 2022 4th from the picks bergie had stockpiled.

Draft slaf with their 1st, mesar with the calgary 1st, beck with their 2nd and hutson with the edm 2nd
Then flip Petry for Matheson
Then by luck or chance they get 2 1sts (cal 2024 and jets 2023) for taking on Monahan and subsequent trade at this deadline.
Trade that Fla pick and their 2023 2nd for Newhook.

Make a few trades like the Petry retention to add a few more picks. He has 15 picks in the 1st 3 rounds of the next 3 drafts so plenty of draft capital to work with.

Habs have cleared a lot of old contracts (Gallagher and Anderson are the remaining two) without having to give up assets to do it. Has plenty of youth and talent especially on back end. Needs a scoring forward or 2 but has the assets to make it happen when ready via trade or UFA.

Has not added UFAs yet but has not relied solely on the draft - has acquired via trade assets like Dach and Newhook (2019 1st rounders) for picks while maintaining a healthy draft capital.

yzermans cupboards were much barer, he had
Larkin 2014 draft
Svechnikov (wrong one) 2015
Hronek 2016
Rasmussen 2017
Zadina and veleno from 2018

He drafted seider in 2019 but pretty much missed on a bunch of 2nd rounders
Raymond in 2020 and a bunch of 2nds who so far have not made an impact
he picked 5 guys in 1st round total of 2021/22/23 but those guys have not made impact yet.

where mtl acquired young guys via trade( Dach, newhook - even matheson) Det has relied on UFA signings mostly. Traded for debrincat, signed matta , Holl, Chiarot and Ghostisbere on back end. reimer and Lyon in net, Fischer, sprong, kane, perron, Chompher and Copp up front.

For a team rebuilding since 2018 or 2019, there is not much home grown talent on that roster yet.

Very different approaches, I prefer the Hughes approach but time will tell. In 5 years we ill know who got it right- maybe both.

 

[Pavels Dog]

If you're you're only looking at the stats, yes!

Stats certainly aren't everything, but for a top 5 pick expectations are high and there's no way to completely disregard stats. Especially when one of the biggest questions about him at the time of the draft was if he had more offense in him.

this is why both rebuilds will fail. both franchises got impatient and took shortcuts.

I cannot fathom why people fail to see the irony in criticizing Yzerman for being impatient in the midst of fans and outside observers crying about "why doesn't he bring up all the prospects", "why isn't he making huge trades!?", "it's already been a couple of seasons!", "how long is it gonna take" etc.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Nothing anomalous about an underdog making the playoffs and winning three playoff rounds. Happens almost every season. In fact, without the Habs' compressed Covid schedule and massive injury hit, they probably finish even higher. When you look at the roster, you realize it was much better than people realized – unfortunately, most of their best players were injured for the final month, so their regular season record was mediocre.

The real problem with the roster was that it was unsustainable. Price, Weber, Petry, Toffoli, Perry, Danault, Lehkonen, Suzuki, Caufield, and a still-good Gallagher were terrific, but all but the last three players disappeared the following season, forcing the Habs into a proper rebuild.

Everyone and their dog knew it was the Carey Price show with Weber and Danault playing the best hockey of their careers.


Then lost to a team with several future HHOF players.

 

[WarriorofTime]

LOL! A Florida fan calling our SCF a Fluke.... Yet Florida making the playoff in 2023 and beating Buffalo and Pittsburgh by ONLY 1 POINTS IS OKAY? ONE SINGLE POINT.

92 PTS VS 91 FOR (BUFF AND PITTS)

Florida was really good in the Standings the season before and after their 8th to SCF. Montreal was a 12th seed play-in round team the prior season and then dead last the following year. They were definitely more fluke-ish of the two.

 

[waitin425]

Calling any run a "fluke" is the cringiest take on Hfboards. THEY STILL BEAT THE TEAMS THEY BEAT TO GET TO THE SCF!

 

[WarriorofTime]

Calling any run a "fluke" is the cringiest take on Hfboards. THEY STILL BEAT THE TEAMS THEY BEAT TO GET TO THE SCF!

Flukes happen. There’s a lot of variance involved in hockey games.

 

[waitin425]

Flukes happen. There’s a lot of variance involved in hockey games.

There is also more parity than people realize. On any given day, one team is better than another. A fluke would be a random bounce off a stanchion to win a game. Beating several teams in 7 game series is not a fluke.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

There is also more parity than people realize. On any given day, one team is better than another. A fluke would be a random bounce off a stanchion to win a game. Beating several teams in 7 game series is not a fluke.

The whole season was weird though. Each team didn't play any other teams outside their division until the 3rd round of the playoffs. That alone makes making the playoffs and getting to the 3rd round "different" as you didn't get to play 3/4 of the entire league.

Obviously yes you still had to win those games/series...but in a normal year, do they make the playoffs? Do they get past teams from other divisions? Who knows.