Where does Kucherov rank among Russians?

[Hockey Outsider]

It really comes down to what you mean by longevity.

Ovechkin has finished top 10 in points 8 times(06,08,09,10,11,13,14,15). So 8 times in 10 seasons start to finish. It's very strong, but is not otherworldly longevity.

But he's finished top 10 in goals 14 times (06,07,08,09,10,12,13,14,15,16,18,19,20,22). So 14 times in 17 seasons.

That is freakish longevity that is basically only matched by Howe, Gretzky, and Bourque.

If we use top 20 scoring finishes, Ovechkin looks really good:

PLAYER	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	TOTAL
Gordie Howe	6	1	5	3	5				1					1				1			23
Wayne Gretzky	11	2	2	1								1							1		18
John Bucyk			1				2	1	2		2	1	2	2	1		1	1	1		17
Alex Delvecchio				1	1	1	2	3	1	2				2		2			1	1	17
Marcel Dionne	1	3	1	1	1		1				1		2	1			1	2	1		16
Alex Ovechkin	1	2	2	1			1	1			1		1		2	1		1		1	15
Norm Ullman		1	1			3	1	1		1		2	1		1	1	1		1		15
Stan Mikita	4	1	3	1								1			3		1				14
Bobby Hull	3	3		1	1	1	1		1				1		1					1	14
Maurice Richard		5	2	1	1	1	1								2	1					14
Joe Sakic		2	1	1	2	2		1		1				1			2		1		14
Phil Esposito	5	3					1		1						1		2				13
Jaromir Jagr	5	2			1	1		1	1						1				1		13
Jean Beliveau	1	2	4	1		1		2	1		1										13
Nels Stewart		1		1	1	1	1	1	1	2					1		2	1			13
Frank Mahovlich			1	1	1	1	1			2		2	3				1				13
Sidney Crosby	2	2	4		1	1				2											12
Andy Bathgate	1	1	3	3	1												1		2		12
Henri Richard		1		1	1				3	1		1				1			1	2	12
Ron Francis				1	2			1	1		1	1			1		2			2	12

This table is from 2022, so it's two years out of date. Still, Ovechkin has more years as a top 20 scorer than Richard, Beliveau, Hull, Esposito, Mikita, etc. Granted, part of that is due to careers being somewhat shorter back then. But even in comparison to more modern stars - Crosby, Jagr, Sakic, etc - Ovechkin still ranks ahead. (Crosby would be up to 14 years after this season).

 

[KareemTrustfund]

You think playing 13 minutes then 15 minutes is the same as 19 minutes then 21 minutes?

I think if he was the best Russian ever he’d have been playing up the lineup with significant mins. But that’s just me.

 

[Michael Farkas]

There are some players in kucherov team whish is actually makes the game, controls the puck, produses plays which takes high iq and skill, and then kuchi boi is comming up, do some not that impressive boring passes and shots, and just putting up points in this way, without showing anithing really awesome, absolutely meh

What players do you really like and respect their game, just out of curiosity?

 

[WarriorofTime]

I think if he was the best Russian ever he’d have been playing up the lineup with significant mins. But that’s just me.

Well now you just changed what you were talking about in the post I responded to.

 

[Despote]

If Kucherov was as good as Malkin or Ovechkin he would have been way better way sooner.

Every player develops at a different rate. Ovechkin had some quite mediocre years in his prime too.

From 2011-17 Ovechkin ranked 79th (!!) in 5vs5 p/60 (min. 2000 min). All while being quite a substantial defensive liability. This is quite underwhelming for the best Russian player of all time, from mid-20s to early 30s -- it would be difficult to argue that he was a top 100 5vs5 player during this stretch.

 

[Wings4Life]

Well behind Malkin, Ovechkin, and Fedorov, to answer the question.

 

[MadLuke]

Not as top level goalscorers they haven't.

Searched who had a long first top 10 in goals finish / last Top 10 than Ovechkin (2006-2023, 17 years appart) and can only find mister Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull if we include the WHL...

Mario...: 86-97 (11)
Espo....: 68-79 (11)
Jagr....: 95-06 (11)
Stamkos.: 10-22 (12)
Dionne..: 73-85 (12)
Bobby H.: 60-72 (12)
Brett H.: 90-13 (13)
M.Richard:44-57 (13)
Beliveau: 55-68 (13)
Sakic...: 91-04 (13)
Robitail: 87-00 (13)
Selanne.: 93-07 (14)
Ovechkin: 06-23 (17)
Bobby H.: 60-78 (18), with WHL
Howe....: 50-69 (19)



Over 10 years being in the mix for a top 10 in goals was seen (not common) from the all-time great scorer with longevity, over 15..... not really, maybe Selanne do it if it transfers to the nhl younger, Lemieux if they plays enough game, but when talking longevity doing it is almost all of the points being talked about (i.e. not missing game, being in the league early, etc...).

When only Gordie Howe did something longer than you, it is a bit like when only Gretzky did something you did not...

 

[jigglysquishy]

Ya, from a goalscoring standpoint, Ovechkin is kind of just at the top of longevity.

That he was a top 3 goal scorer in the league as a rookie, and then won the Rocket 15 years later, is extremely unique.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Ovechkins last top 10 point finish was at 29 years old. And took him 12 years to hit 90 freaking points post age 24. Which he did at 36. Great longevity as a goal scorer but kuch will go down as the better player for sure

 

[MadLuke]

And took him 12 years to hit 90 freaking points post age 24. Which he did at 36.

During 2 of those years, 90pts would have won the Art Ross, 3 others would have been second place....

This make it sound lower than it was when Ovechkin was still young, from 2011 to 2017, there was just eleven 90pts season, Crosby, Malkin, Kane all did it a single time

 

[KareemTrustfund]

Well now you just changed what you were talking about in the post I responded to.

You mentioned Kucherov had less ice time than Malkin in his first few years. I think the best Russian NHLer ever , if that’s what he was, should have been able to command more but he didn’t. He wasn’t a star player back then, it’s really that simple.

 

[MadLuke]

You mentioned Kucherov had less ice time than Malkin in his first few years. I think the best Russian NHLer ever , if that’s what he was, should have been able to command more but he didn’t. He wasn’t a star player back then, it’s really that simple.

What would following that logic with Hasek, Jagr or Tom Brady would lead us....

 

[bobholly39]

Searched who had a long first top 10 in goals finish / last Top 10 than Ovechkin (2006-2023, 17 years appart) and can only find mister Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull if we include the WHL...

Mario...: 86-97 (11)
Espo....: 68-79 (11)
Jagr....: 95-06 (11)
Stamkos.: 10-22 (12)
Dionne..: 73-85 (12)
Bobby H.: 60-72 (12)
Brett H.: 90-13 (13)
M.Richard:44-57 (13)
Beliveau: 55-68 (13)
Sakic...: 91-04 (13)
Robitail: 87-00 (13)
Selanne.: 93-07 (14)
Ovechkin: 06-23 (17)
Bobby H.: 60-78 (18), with WHL
Howe....: 50-69 (19)



Over 10 years being in the mix for a top 10 in goals was seen (not common) from the all-time great scorer with longevity, over 15..... not really, maybe Selanne do it if it transfers to the nhl younger, Lemieux if they plays enough game, but when talking longevity doing it is almost all of the points being talked about (i.e. not missing game, being in the league early, etc...).

When only Gordie Howe did something longer than you, it is a bit like when only Gretzky did something you did not...

Not exactly top 10 but,...when you say Ovechkin, it's always fun to compare to Crosby.

2005-2006 - he was 12th for goals (39 goals - 2 players tied at 40 for 10th and 11th)
2023-2024 he has 42 goals - good for 11th place (still 6 games left tonight, so it's possible he falls back further than 11th)

But - 18 years apart, not too shabby for a strong goal finish for Crosby either.

Speaking of Ovechkin - I fully expect him back in the top 10 next year, so his own streak will likely extend to 19. But - we'll see if it happens.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

What would following that logic with Hasek, Jagr or Tom Brady would lead us....

What?

 

[WarriorofTime]

You mentioned Kucherov had less ice time than Malkin in his first few years. I think the best Russian NHLer ever , if that’s what he was, should have been able to command more but he didn’t. He wasn’t a star player back then, it’s really that simple.

Let's rewind the conversation.

There was a discussion with Malkin about Crosby drawing tougher Even Strength Matchups, you responded asking why Kucherov didn't put up the same numbers as Malkin when he wasn't on the top line. This implies the situations were equal. I responded pointing out despite any semantical line calling, Malkin played the equivalent of top line minutes from the jump and Kucherov did not, which indicates a big reason Kucherov did not have higher production earlier. Then you responded discussing how if Kucherov were better he'd have more ice time.

You changed the discussion from production related to nominal line number to one about how if a player is good, they force a coach to give them more ice time quicker. Of course we could take that logic to silly conclusions. If Dominik Hasek were any good, why was he the backup for so long?

 

[MadLuke]

What?

Should they be excluded of all-time best conversation because they took time to get first line-starting role spot ?

 

[WarriorofTime]

From 2011-17 Ovechkin ranked 79th (!!) in 5vs5 p/60 (min. 2000 min). All while being quite a substantial defensive liability. This is quite underwhelming for the best Russian player of all time, from mid-20s to early 30s -- it would be difficult to argue that he was a top 100 5vs5 player during this stretch.

This kind of agenda-based posting is what really harms discussion. Ovechkin lead the NHL in goals during that 7-season stretch. Cherrypicking the sort of data you want to paint an inaccurate picture (not even a top 100 player!) is tiresome. He was third in powerplay points, second (by just a few points) was the guy who made a career shoveling pucks his direction to bang in the net. He was comfortably first in Primary Powerplay points (if you looked at only Powerplay Goals and Powerplay first assists).

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Goals 2010-11 through 2016-17 season:
Ovechkin - 289
Stamkos - 247
Perry - 231
Pavelski - 212
Tavares - 211
Kane - 209
Paccioretty - 203
Kessel - 200
Crosby - 199
Benn - 196

 

[Despote]

This kind of agenda-based posting is what really harms discussion. Ovechkin lead the NHL in goals during that 7-season stretch. Cherrypicking the sort of data you want to paint an inaccurate picture (not even a top 100 player!) is tiresome. He was third in powerplay points, second (by just a few points) was the guy who made a career shoveling pucks his direction to bang in the net. He was comfortably first in Primary Powerplay points (if you looked at only Powerplay Goals and Powerplay first assists).

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Goals 2010-11 through 2016-17 season:
Ovechkin - 289
Stamkos - 247
Perry - 231
Pavelski - 212
Tavares - 211
Kane - 209
Paccioretty - 203
Kessel - 200
Crosby - 199
Benn - 196

Ovechkin also had a substantial TOI edge on the powerplay. Surely he was elite there, arguably the best powerplay player in the league during this timeframe, but the bulk of a players value over replacement still comes from 5vs5 play. I see powerplay play elevating a player one tier up or pushing them one tier down from what their even strength ability is, because it's easier to replace powerplay impact and powerplay impact can become redundant if your team already has the pieces to form an elite powerplay.

A player like Kucherov has had no problems being dominant on 5vs5 and powerplay through his career. Kucherov is no lesser powerplay talent than Ovechkin was. Arguably better. It's no surprise that when Ovechkin of his timeframe played in national tournaments you were often left wondering whether the team would've been better with him being left off entirely. With the PP already full of elite shooting options like Kovalchuk, Malkin, Kucherov etc. there's suddenly no need to feed the pucks to Ovechkin constantly and at 5vs5 he was arguably a liability in best-on-best hockey.

Doesn't sound like the best Russian of all time for me. Of course the counting stats and MVP voting will favour him. I just don't place as much value on them as others. Ovechkin had a generational 3-year peak but he's a very underwhelming player outside of that, for me.

 

[MadLuke]

(not even a top 100 player!)

If you remove the 5vs5 player, you change the statement quite a bit here.

Which is still quite the take about the player that was 8th in EVP during that stretch.

per game during that stretch, not far from the top 10:

Column1	Column2
Sidney Crosby	0.86​
Patrick Kane	0.73​
Evgeni Malkin	0.70​
Steven Stamkos	0.68​
Martin St. Louis	0.67​
Jamie Benn	0.65​
Ryan Getzlaf	0.65​
John Tavares	0.64​
Taylor Hall	0.63​
Jonathan Toews	0.62​
Vladimir Tarasenko	0.61​
Blake Wheeler	0.60​
Pavel Datsyuk	0.60​
Max Pacioretty	0.60​
Corey Perry	0.59​
Alex Ovechkin	0.59​
David Krejci	0.58​
Tyler Seguin	0.58​
Brad Marchand	0.57​
Anze Kopitar	0.57​

He was 60th in points per 60 minutes at EV during that stretch (8 minute a game more than 200 games), but the difference from 60 (1.97) to 30 (2.08) is .1 pts every 60 minutes, 1800 minutes is really a big season for a forward, that 3 pts a year difference if you play all the games and a star forward.

It make for a small difference look quite big.

The gap between Crosby and everyone else was huge.

From Malking after that was big.
Better see by tier when we call everyone +- 4pts a whole season in the same group, imo than ranking.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Ovechkin also had a substantial TOI edge on the powerplay.

So what? This isn't Mites. Everyone doesn't get a turn just because. There's a reason he had a "substantial TOI edge"

 

[Despote]

So what? This isn't Mites. Everyone doesn't get a turn just because. There's a reason he had a "substantial TOI edge"

It means his counting stats aren't indicative of the value he provided over replacement, considering a replacement player will score points on the powerplay at quite a substantial rate.

 

[WarriorofTime]

there's suddenly no need to feed the pucks to Ovechkin constantly and at 5vs5 he was arguably a liability in best-on-best hockey.

He lead the league in even strength goals that stretch as well and was 8th in even strength points

 

[Despote]

He lead the league in even strength goals that stretch as well and was 8th in even strength points

Yeah, he played a ton of minutes and stayed healthy but wasn't very valuable. His team had a worse goal differential with him on the ice than him off the ice.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yeah, he played a ton of minutes and stayed healthy but wasn't very valuable. His team had a worse goal differential with him on the ice than him off the ice.

That's a flawed way of looking at imo, you are (perhaps?) saying the Capitals are better off if he just never exists, but then someone else is up there eating the tough matchups which are more difficult to have a good goal differential on (and which doesn't depend solely on a winger who is primarily focused on converting/finishing which Ovechkin does effectively).. and then the guy you elevated is replaced by a different guy who maybe doesn't do well in the role against softer matchups, etc. Realistically, you are just getting a worse conversion rate on opportunities that present themselves. The new LW probably is not tilting the possession edge here, the downstream effects are felt. So you're likely a worse team 5 on 5, a SUBSTANTIALLY worse team on the powerplay now that you've distributed Ovechkin's powerplay time to a random 3rd line PP-replacement level player.

 

[Despote]

That's a flawed way of looking at imo, you are (perhaps?) saying the Capitals are better off if he just never exists, but then someone else is up there eating the tough matchups which are more difficult to have a good goal differential on (and which doesn't depend solely on a winger who is primarily focused on converting/finishing which Ovechkin does effectively).. and then the guy you elevated is replaced by a different guy who maybe doesn't do well in the role against softer matchups, etc. Realistically, you are just getting a worse conversion rate on opportunities that present themselves. The new LW probably is not tilting the possession edge here, the downstream effects are felt. So you're likely a worse team 5 on 5, a SUBSTANTIALLY worse team on the powerplay now that you've distributed Ovechkin's powerplay time to a random 3rd line PP-replacement level player.

It doesn't seem to be a problem for other all-time level players to substantially improve their teams goal differential when they step on the ice.

Nobody in their right mind would say that Ovechkin provides no surplus value, I happen to think that his counting stats tend to severely overrate him as a player and there isn't much meat to his game after 2011.