Where does Kucherov rank among Russians?

[WarriorofTime]

Unless they win some series those are completely meaningless achievements.

How nihilistic

 

[Michael Farkas]

Fueled by Ovechkin's hot streak, they make the postseason against all odds. That's the sort of insane and close to unprecedented longevity that makes Ovechkin borderline unpassable given how great his peak was for a guy like Kucherov.

Maybe...

The Capitals were 21st in pts% over the last month and made the playoffs because of a (narrowly) unnecessary empty net goal in a tied game.

Ovechkin is 73rd in points during that time.

Their pts% has gone down over the last 15 games...it's Philadelphia (in particular) and Detroit completely cratering that was against all odds. The Capitals played the same hockey they had been playing...

 

[WarriorofTime]

Maybe...

The Capitals were 21st in pts% over the last month and made the playoffs because of a (narrowly) unnecessary empty net goal in a tied game.

Ovechkin is 73rd in points during that time.

Their pts% has gone down over the last 15 games...it's Philadelphia (in particular) and Detroit completely cratering that was against all odds. The Capitals played the same hockey they had been playing...

Why only look at last month? Ovechkin scored lots post all star break

 

[Professor What]

Unless they win some series those are completely meaningless achievements.

How do you figure that? By that kind of logic, Marcel Dionne might as well not exist. Of course those achievements mean something. They add to Ovechkin's legacy.

 

[Gorskyontario]

How do you figure that? By that kind of logic, Marcel Dionne might as well not exist. Of course those achievements mean something. They add to Ovechkin's legacy.

Well scoring 30 goals is nice(especially at his age), but I don't see how this season makes Ovechkin look any better as a player. This season(and the next few where he will likely score less) will only mean something if he manages to break Gretzky's goal scoring record.

 

[Professor What]

Well scoring 30 goals is nice(especially at his age), but I don't see how this season makes Ovechkin look any better as a player. This season(and the next few where he will likely score less) will only mean something if he manages to break Gretzky's goal scoring record.

I'd actually be inclined to think that he scores more next year because of the ice cold start that he had this season. But either way, if he plays 2 more seasons, he's likely to break Gretzky's record. But more importantly, what he (and Crosby, for that matter) is doing right now is showing off incredible longevity. I put some value in that. He's not just barely hanging on in his late 30s, he's actually a major contributor.

 

[Matsun]

I wonder what you think about peak Sidney Crosby getting outscored and out-MVP'd by Henrik Sedin of all people. How much of a wrench does a fringe top 200 player outscoring peak Crosby, peak Malkin and peak Ovechkin throw into the narratives?

It's hard to take at face value that Crosby/Malkin/OV had great peaks considering Sedin scored in the same ballpark in the same era.

Peak point total after scoring decrease in 07:
Crosby 109
Malkin 113
Ovechkin 112
H. Sedin 112

Joe Sakic who arguably was not on track for top 50 all time at 31 had a peak season that was arguably better than Jagr's peak. Should we re-evaluate and tone down Jagr's seasons too or does this standard only apply to McDavid, where having ~dozen goal gap to the second best season of the era means his peak should for some reason not be taken at face value?

Great post. Everyone in history except Mario, Wayne and Orr can be threatned or lose to a great player having a peak season. Thornton and Sakic both showed that with Jagr, but when Lafontaine and Yzerman peaked against Mario they were still nowhere close.

This season doesn't mean that Kucherov will go down as better than McDavid alltime, but I think it shows that he has not become unbeatable like it looked at times.

 

[MadLuke]

Everyone in history except Mario, Wayne and Orr can be threatned or lose to a great player having a peak season.

Orr did in 1971, 1974, etc....

are we excluding teammate ?

 

[Matsun]

Orr did in 1971, 1974, etc....

are we excluding teammate ?

In Orrs case I mean for the Norris/best defenseman title. Peak Lidstrom and Bourque could lose a Norris to great but lesser players like Pronger but that would not happen to Orr.

 

[Professor What]

Orr did in 1971, 1974, etc....

are we excluding teammate ?

Are you talking about the Hart? By that point, it had already become difficult for a defenseman to win the Hart. Before Orr in 1970, it had been 26 years since it had happened. The fact that he won it at all, let alone three times is telling. Also, if you're referring to the Hart, I think you mean 1969 instead of 1971. Orr did win it in 1971. If you're talking about the Art Ross, it's even more absurd that Orr won it multiple times. I think it's fair to call Orr unbeatable.

 

[MadLuke]

Are you talking about the Hart?

Was more asking what was the statement made, unbeatable at what ?

 

[Zine]

Start with studying Soviet stats

Stats tell half the story, the eye test the other.

Imo, the Soviet style wasn't the greatest fit for Kharlamov. He was a lot like a Guy LaFleur; the unpredictable type you gave the puck to and said....go! And everybody else made sure to keep their sticks on the ice.
The patterned 3-man interplay style didn't always serve his best attribute, which was unpredictable spontaneity.

 

[Namba 17]

He was a lot like a Guy LaFleur; the unpredictable type you gave the puck to and said....go! And everybody else made sure to keep their sticks on the ice.
The patterned 3-man interplay style didn't always serve his best attribute, which was unpredictable spontaneity.

No.

 

[AndreRoy]

As far as the Malkin comparisons go, you also have to consider that Malkin had the benefit of being sheltered on the second line with a superior teammate in Crosby drawing the toughest defensive matchups most of the time. Kucherov is the guy on his team that opponents scheme to stop and put their best defenders against.

 

[sdf]

In the toilet

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Ovechkin passes Gordie Howe to move to 10th highest scoring Age 38 season in NHL history, and moves to tie Johnny Bucyck for 2nd highest age 38 goal scoring season of all time. Caps lose both of their top 2 centers. Capitals sell at the deadline. Fueled by Ovechkin's hot streak, they make the postseason against all odds. That's the sort of insane and close to unprecedented longevity that makes Ovechkin borderline unpassable given how great his peak was for a guy like Kucherov.

Plenty of elite players in hockey history have the longevity of Ovechkin. NHL history is not uncommon for 38-year-old players. Malkin, Crosby and Pavelski do the same thing. Selanne and Jagr went up to 44 and 46. Thornton, Marleau, Lidstrom, Alfredsson, etc... until early 40.

In McDavid's generation, there will be several elite players who will play until age 40. Why not Kucherov ? He reached his peak at age 31 and is elite since 10 years. He's not going to collapse at 32.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Plenty of elite players in hockey history have the longevity of Ovechkin.

Name 20

 

[jigglysquishy]

It really comes down to what you mean by longevity.

Ovechkin has finished top 10 in points 8 times(06,08,09,10,11,13,14,15). So 8 times in 10 seasons start to finish. It's very strong, but is not otherworldly longevity.

But he's finished top 10 in goals 14 times (06,07,08,09,10,12,13,14,15,16,18,19,20,22). So 14 times in 17 seasons.

That is freakish longevity that is basically only matched by Howe, Gretzky, and Bourque.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Plenty of elite players in hockey history have the longevity of Ovechkin. NHL history is not uncommon for 38-year-old players. Malkin, Crosby and Pavelski do the same thing. Selanne and Jagr went up to 44 and 46. Thornton, Marleau, Lidstrom, Alfredsson, etc... until early 40.

In McDavid's generation, there will be several elite players who will play until age 40. Why not Kucherov ? He reached his peak at age 31 and is elite since 10 years. He's not going to collapse at 32.

Not as top level goalscorers they haven't.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Name 20

Easy.

Jagr
Selanne
Crosby
Chara
Alfredsson
Malkin
Pavelski
Williams
Parise
Cullen
Kunitz
Goligoski
Perry
Orpik
Greene
Staal
Elias
Spezza
Schneider
Chelios
Gretzky
Robinson
Zubov
Messier
Sakic
Delvecchio
Bellemare
Carter
Giordano
Suter
Howe
Bucyk
Hull
Recchi
Ratelle
Larionov
Francis
Oates
Gilmour
Sundin
H.Sedin
D.Sedin
Saint-Louis
Thornton
Marleau
Iginla
Keith
Streit
Koivu
Bourque
Keon
Mikita
Harvey
Horton
Andreychuk
Nieuwendyk
Whitney
Rolston
Blake
Brunette
Foote
Gill
Gionta
Doan
Knuble
C.Lemieux
M.Lemieux
Lafleur
Robitaille
Beliveau
H.Richard
M.Richard
Armstrong
Yzerman
Modano
Shanahan
Roenick
McInnis
Housley
Brind'Amour
Carbonneau
Guerin
Boyle
Pronger
Niedermayer
Coffey
Fedorov
Datsyuk
Fetisov
Kovalev
O'Donnell
Salo
Timonen
Numminen
Markov
Gonchar
Salming

Not as top level goalscorers they haven't.

Selanne
Jagr
Howe...

Kucherov totally has the profile to play up to 40. In any case, Kucherov at 31 is well above Ovechkin at 31. So I don't see why he would necessarily collapse in a few years.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Hey I didn't just ask for a list of players that played until they were old.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Hey I didn't just ask for a list of players that played until they were old.

You were talking about exceptional longevity, you have it.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

As far as the Malkin comparisons go, you also have to consider that Malkin had the benefit of being sheltered on the second line with a superior teammate in Crosby drawing the toughest defensive matchups most of the time. Kucherov is the guy on his team that opponents scheme to stop and put their best defenders against.

This has got to be the dumbest argument. Why didn’t Kucherov put up Malkin esque numbers when he wasn’t on the top line then? Why’d it take him six years after being drafted to even put up a PPG season? What a tiresome argument.


If Kucherov was as good as Malkin or Ovechkin he would have been way better way sooner.

 

[WarriorofTime]

This has got to be the dumbest argument. Why didn’t Kucherov put up Malkin esque numbers when he wasn’t on the top line then? Why’d it take him six years after being drafted to even put up a PPG season? What a tiresome argument.


If Kucherov was as good as Malkin or Ovechkin he would have been way better way sooner.

You think playing 13 minutes then 15 minutes is the same as 19 minutes then 21 minutes?

 

[sdf]

There are some players in kucherov team whish is actually makes the game, controls the puck, produses plays which takes high iq and skill, and then kuchi boi is comming up, do some not that impressive boring passes and shots, and just putting up points in this way, without showing anithing really awesome, absolutely meh