Where does Crosby rank as a goalscorer?

[daver]

For a player generally considered a playmaker and is arguably is the best playmaker of his generation, he is notching some notable goalscoring milestones.

Where does he rank as a goalscorer?

T1 most single season playoff goals of his era
#2 goalscorer of his era
T2 all-time Rocket Richard wins
#3 in GPG of his era (min. 800 games)
#3 in playoff goals of his era
T11th in # of 30 goal seasons all-time
#20 in all-time goalscoring
#22 in all-time GPG (min. 800 games)


From a purely goalscoring standpoint, is he Top 20 all-time?

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[Crosby2010]

Could we find 20 better goal scorers in NHL history than Crosby? I am just going to name the ones for sure that are ahead of him:

Gretzky, Ovechkin, Mario, Howe, Esposito, Bossy, Dionne, Bobby Hull, Brett Hull, Rocket, Yzerman, Selanne, Bure, Jagr. So that's 14 for sure that I would confirm. That puts him no better than 15th. I can't find a way to put him ahead of any of those names. Then there are other guys right there with him:

Beliveau, Mahovlich, Charlie Conacher, Iginla, Bondra, Goulet, Lafleur, Boom Boom, Stamkos, Kurri, Sakic, Robitaille.

Matthews eventually I would guess.

So yeah, I think he's top 20. The second tier list might have some ahead of him but not all either. Anywhere from 15-20 makes sense. He did lead the NHL in goals twice. Not to mention his 71 playoff goals so far. Heck, he just popped two last night! He's hardly finished.

 

[Despote]

Matthews eventually I would guess.

A technicality but I wouldn't call it eventually at this point. Matthews doesn't have to play another game to rank higher than Crosby as a goalscorer, IMO.

 

[daver]

A technicality but I wouldn't call it eventually at this point. Matthews doesn't have to play another game to rank higher than Crosby as a goalscorer, IMO.

There is a difference between "greater" and "better". OV has an argument for greatest, Mario has an argument for better. Not sure Matthews is the "greater" goalscorer despite being the "better" goalscorer.

 

[daver]

As a sidenote, in the goalscoring context, Crosby may have one of the biggest "what if" seasons.

Thru 39 games in 10/11 he was lapping the field, save for Stamkos, in goalscoring. He could have added an "among the best of his era/ Top 10 all-time" goalscoring seasons to his resume; a peak season well above his two Rocket wins.

After his injuries, he seemed to go back to being primarily a playmaker. Then he seemingly decided to win the Rocket in 16/17, and to, again, focus on goalscoring this season at the age of 36.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

For a player generally considered a playmaker and is arguably is the best playmaker of his generation, he is notching some notable goalscoring milestones.

Where does he rank as a goalscorer?

T1 most single season playoff goals of his era
#2 goalscorer of his era
T2 all-time Rocket Richard wins
#3 in GPG of his era (min. 800 games)
#3 in playoff goals of his era
T11th in # of 30 goal seasons all-time
#20 in all-time goalscoring
#22 in all-time GPG (min. 800 games)


From a purely goalscoring standpoint, is he Top 20 all-time?

Top 50, but honestly 30 is the max I'd go

He put up solid goal numbers and did so consistently but he was never an elite goal scorer.

Most of the accolades you listed are accumulation stats, not greatness stats. And the T2 in Rockets is misleading since the trophy wasnt made until 1999, so you may as well say "T2 all time Rocket Richard wins in his era" since his era is the only one to have the award exist in every year.

 

[Despote]

He put up solid goal numbers and did so consistently but he was never an elite goal scorer.

That's a wild thing to say of a player that led the league in goals several times (and may have lead an extra time without an injury).

 

[Midnight Judges]

If Ovechkin didn't exist, Crosby would be regarded much higher as a goal scorer.

But as it stands, Ovechkin has 44% more career goals in the same number of seasons, and so it dwarfs Crosby.

 

[daver]

He put up solid goal numbers and did so consistently but he was never an elite goal scorer.

Here is his completely cherrypicked best 93 game stretch of goalscoring:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Goals - 71

2. 64
3. 49
4. 48
5. 47


GPG - 0.76

2. 0.67
3. 0.54
4. 0.52
5. 0.51

 

[MadLuke]

#2 goalscorer of his era
T2 all-time Rocket Richard wins

There is a bit of spin going on here.

Using Rocket Richard wins instead of finishing first in goal in the league is ridiculous, that tie with 3 other people already (for a couple of months if Matthews win) and just because Ovechkin won like half of them since the trophy started.

#2 most goal from 2006 to now yes, but that does not mean #2 goalscore of his era, (say would Stamkos not be of his era or a lesser goalscorer).

When we define era by the first player game and his last game, we tend to exclude people that played half their career before or after the era in that kind of calculation.

If we look by 5 season stretch Crosby was in goal scored per game (at least 150 games)
06-10: #7
07-11: tie with gaborik-Kovalchuck for second place
08-12: third (Stamkos his number 2)
09-13: third (Stamkos his number 2)
10-14: third (Stamkos his number 1)
11-15: #4 (Stamkos his number 1)
12-16: #11 (Stamkos his number 2)
13-17: #4 (Stamkos his number 2)
14-18: #6 (Stamkos his number 3)
15-19: #12 (Stamkos his number 3)

to put it in a different way, since Stamkos entered the league, most goals
Ovechkin: 673
Stamkos: 538
Crosby: 481

Someone could easily say Stamkos was the second goalscorer of his era and it would seem strange to consider Stamkos and Crosby to be from 2 different era of hockey.

 

[daver]

There is a bit of spin going on here.

Using Rocket Richard wins instead of finishing first in goal in the league is ridiculous, that tie with 3 other people already (for a couple of months if Matthews win) and just because Ovechkin won like half of them since the trophy started.

#2 most goal from 2006 to now yes, but that does not mean #2 goalscore of his era, (say would Stamkos not be of his era or a lesser goalscorer).

When we define era by the first player game and his last game, we tend to exclude people that played half their career before or after the era in that kind of calculation.

If we look by 5 season stretch Crosby was in goal scored per game (at least 150 games)
06-10: #7
07-11: tie with gaborik-Kovalchuck for second place
08-12: third (Stamkos his number 2)
09-13: third (Stamkos his number 2)
10-14: third (Stamkos his number 1)
11-15: #4 (Stamkos his number 1)
12-16: #11 (Stamkos his number 2)
13-17: #4 (Stamkos his number 2)
14-18: #6 (Stamkos his number 3)
15-19: #12 (Stamkos his number 3)

to put it in a different way, since Stamkos entered the league, most goals
Ovechkin: 673
Stamkos: 538
Crosby: 481

Someone could easily say Stamkos was the second goalscorer of his era and it would seem strange to consider Stamkos and Crosby to be from 2 different era of hockey.

Not trying to spin anything.

I didn't say he was the # 2 goalscorer of his era. He has the 2nd most goals of his era.

Of course GPG brings Stamkos ahead of him that's why I included it (and doesn't change if you eliminate Crosby's first three seasons).

Crosby's superior playoff goalscoring certainly brings him closer to Stamkos than their regular season would indicate.

 

[MadLuke]

I didn't say he was the # 2 goalscorer of his era. He has the 2nd most goals of his era.

Well some could interpret writing:
#2 goalscorer of his era

To saying he was the #2 goalscorer of his era.... Could just be a typo or a common way to say second most goal scored from his rookie season to now (that how I interpret it, second most goal scored from his rookie season to now, which I wanted to point out using a player rookie to now give him an obvious advantage over retired player that shared his era or those who started just a couple of years after).

Crosby has the advantage of being a strong playoff goalscorer volume wise, but .39 goal per game versus .37 ? less than 2 goals for 82 game pace maybe, scoring change a lot during Crosby career so it depends when they played their game I imagine.

 

[daver]

Well some could interpret writing:
#2 goalscorer of his era

To saying he was the #2 goalscorer of his era.... Could just be a typo or a common way to say second most goal scored from his rookie season to now (that how I interpret it, second most goal scored from his rookie season to now, which I wanted to point out using a player rookie to now give him an obvious advantage over retired player that shared his era or those who started just a couple of years after).

They could. Thought it was clear that I was providing statistical evidence and not opinions.

To saying he was the #2 goalscorer of his era.... Could just be a typo or a common way to say second most goal scored from his rookie season to now (that how I interpret it, second most goal scored from his rookie season to now, which I wanted to point out using a player rookie to now give him an obvious advantage over retired player that shared his era or those who started just a couple of years after).

It's simply a stat that one can interpret however they want.

Yes, Stamkos is also a #2 goalscorer of his era. Is that more impressive than Crosby's? One could look to see how much the separated themselves from the pack to make that determination.

Crosby is adding to his legacy with some GOAT elite longevity. Does that make up for the lack of Top 5 goal finishes in comparison to others?

 

[MadLuke]

They could.

Specially considering it is a copy-paste of exactly the same sentence and #20 in all-time goalscoring was used instead of saying #20 goalscorer all time.

 

[daver]

Specially considering it is a copy-paste of exactly the same sentence and #20 in all-time goalscoring was used instead of saying #20 goalscorer all time.

Hopefully this has been worked now as the markets were starting tumble due to the uncertainty of my OP.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Not trying to spin anything.

I didn't say he was the # 2 goalscorer of his era. He has the 2nd most goals of his era.

Of course GPG brings Stamkos ahead of him that's why I included it (and doesn't change if you eliminate Crosby's first three seasons).

Crosby's superior playoff goalscoring certainly brings him closer to Stamkos than their regular season would indicate.

You clearly used the #2 most goals of his era and T2 most rockets to put him as the 2nd best goal scorer of his era.

His playoff goal scoring isn't as impressive as you're making it out to be either. His 71 playoff goals are in 180 games (0.39 GPG) nearly a 0.10 drop from his regular season pace and nearly the same as Stamkos (0.36 GPG).

Of his era, Crosby is behind Ovechkin, Stamkos, Kovalchuk, Iginla, Matthews and Pastrnak as a goal scorer. Again, as a goal scorer not a stat accumulator

 

[BenchBrawl]

.

 

[ImporterExporter]

If Ovechkin didn't exist, Crosby would be regarded much higher as a goal scorer.

But as it stands, Ovechkin has 44% more career goals in the same number of seasons, and so it dwarfs Crosby.

Yeah, not the same thing as # of games played which Crosby has far, far fewer of than Ovechkin.

But of course you know this.

Ovechkin is the better goal scorer.

Sid's the better hockey player.

The majority of people think this way. But we'll keep having these debates until humanity finally kills itself off.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Yeah, not the same thing as # of games played which Crosby has far, far fewer of than Ovechkin.

But of course you know this.

Ovechkin is the better goal scorer.

Sid's the better hockey player.

The majority of people think this way. But we'll keep having these debates until humanity finally kills itself off.

Playing fewer games isn't an objective. Being durable is a virtue in all professional sports no matter how many times you try to pretend otherwise.

In fact having Crosby or Ovechkin on the ice benefits the team in significant ways even if they don't score.

You don't have a point.

Ovechkin is the better hockey player.

 

[WarriorofTime]

21st all time.

Crosby is not “primarily known as a playmaker”. He is known as an all around offensive force. It is manipulative to say he is “primarily known as a playmaker”.

 

[MadLuke]

He is known as an all around offensive force.

Maybe not for everyone, but I think that for many he is a Sakic-Yzerman-Beliveau type yes

 

[ImporterExporter]

Playing fewer games isn't an objective. Being durable is a virtue in all professional sports no matter how many times you try to pretend otherwise.

In fact having Crosby or Ovechkin on the ice benefits the team in significant ways even if they don't score.

You don't have a point.

Ovechkin is the better hockey player.

Not being an objective doesn't remove the fact that # of seasons is an asinine and outright deceptive way of comparing statistical accomplishments.

If you want to say Ovechkin is more durable? Fine, nobody argues that.

But getting ran by an Ovechkin teammate and taking a slap shot to the face, are 2 things that aren't normal hockey events. BTW, those 2 events kept Sid from having 4 Hart's and Art Rosses, which would certainly impact a comparison head to head. Are those durability issues or freak instances? Please, try and say they are the former.

 

[daver]

You clearly used the #2 most goals of his era and T2 most rockets to put him as the 2nd best goal scorer of his era.

His playoff goal scoring isn't as impressive as you're making it out to be either. His 71 playoff goals are in 180 games (0.39 GPG) nearly a 0.10 drop from his regular season pace and nearly the same as Stamkos (0.36 GPG).

Of his era, Crosby is behind Ovechkin, Stamkos, Kovalchuk, Iginla, Matthews and Pastrnak as a goal scorer. Again, as a goal scorer not a stat accumulator

No, I actually didn't.

But since you seem to have a clear opinion on who Crosby is behind, on what basis are you placing him behind them?

I would think goal totals vs. peers and rocket wins would be quite useful in determining this.

21st all time.

Crosby is not “primarily known as a playmaker”. He is known as an all around offensive force. It is manipulative to say he is “primarily known as a playmaker”.

He has an argument for best playmaker of his era so not sure why it is manipulative.

 

[MadLuke]

No, I actually didn't.

you really did choose to use Rocket richard trophy winner instead of the usual leading the league in goals not to make an argument ? But because it is a mre relevant metric when talking about all time scorer ranking ?

This is hard to believe.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Maybe not for everyone, but I think that for many he is a Sakic-Yzerman-Beliveau type yes

A few assorted examples

Ovechkin - 54.9 % of points came from goals
Esposito - 45.1 % of points came from goals
Dionne - 41.3 % of points came from goals
Lemieux - 40.0 % of points came from goals
Jagr - 39.9 % of points came from goals
Yzerman - 39.4 % of points came from goals
Sakic - 38.1 % of points came from goals
Crosby - 37.3 % of points came from goals
Messier - 36.8 % of points came from goals
Kane - 36.5 % of points came from goals
Gilmour - 31.8 % of points came from goals
Gretzky - 31.3 % of points came from goals
Clarke - 29.6 % of points came from goals
Thornton - 27.9 % of points came from goals
Oates - 24.0 % of points came from goals
H. Sedin - 22.5 % of points came from goals