Where do Ovechkin and Crosby Rank?

[Voight]

Without playoff success, Ovechkin will not. Better slightly? Perhaps but the postseason is where players can really separate in these types of discussions. Crosby, while underwhelming lately has a clear advantage in the playoffs as well as international acclaim. The only reason why this is an argument IMO is Sid was robbed of essentially 2 years due to cheap shots and a slap shot from his own neanderthal teammate (Orpik), which cost him 2 clear Hart wins, among other awards.

Yea, he would've been the CLEAR Hart winner in 2012... Please. Theres no telling how he would've fared that year.

Both hits weren't cheap shots bye the way, Steckel and Hedman didn't injure him intentionally and suffered no discipline as a result.

These types of discussion usually list regular season points, the all time lists that have been compiled by media outlets and the like rarely take post season stats into account. Mainly because they can be circumstantial.

Crosby defenders always seem to bring up "he has more points post season and regular season combined!" ..... I wonder why that is.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Yea, he would've been the CLEAR Hart winner in 2012... Please. Theres no telling how he would've fared that year.

Both hits weren't cheap shots bye the way, Steckel and Hedman didn't injure him intentionally and suffered no discipline as a result.

These types of discussion usually list regular season points, the all time lists that have been compiled by media outlets and the like rarely take post season stats into account. Mainly because they can be circumstantial.

Crosby defenders always seem to bring up "he has more points post season and regular season combined!" ..... I wonder why that is.

Well you hate Crosby haha.

First off, i wasn't talking about 2012. I was talking about the shortened season (2013) when Orpik hit Sid in the jaw with a slap shot when Crosby was a million miles ahead of everyone in the scoring race. It took the rest of the league a month to catch up and pass him. Sid would have easily won in 2011 and 2013 if not for Steckel and Orpik.

Secondly, go youtube the Steckel "hit". That is more than cheap. It was well after the puck had left Crosby's area and it had nothing to do with the flow of the game. Elbow/shoulder to the head = beyond dirty. The Hedman was a standard boarding call. I'm not homer enough to claim anything other than that. I'm sure it didn't help things because it was directly after the Steckel game.

All i know its Crosby's point per game # is 1.37 to Ovechkin's 1.18 (So Sid with more than 100 fewer games than Ovechkin is right on his heels all time scoring during the regular season) and the last time Crosby has played with (on his line) somebody on Nick Backstrom's talent level was when Hossa was in Pittsburgh for 2 months. Postseason is 1.2 to 1.05. And Ovechkin is about as one dimensional offensively as a scorer as you can get. He relies on the PP to score 37% of his goals. Sid 30%. 40% of Ovechkin's offensive totals come from the PP. Sid 38%. Crosby has been a Rocket Richard winner, and led the league in assists. He's a better ES player which is what the bulk of hockey is played at. Whether you like it or not, he's done more in the postseason. And Ovechkin has been on MULTIPLE number 1 seeded Washingston teams to be dumped in the 1st or 2nd rounds. He's never even played in a Cup final.

Another aspect which is never brought up is that Ovechkin has led the league is shots every single year but 1. And usually by massive margins. Take a look at a guy he's compared with all time as a goal scorer. Mike Bossy. Bossy led that category exactly 0 times and still managed to record incredible goals per game totals. Granted 80's, much higher scoring, but a neat comparison. Take a guy who's played much closer to Ovie. Iginla. He led the league twice in goal scoring and had a couple of top 3's as well. Never once led the league in shot totals. Ovechkin is a volume shooter, not a sniper as i've seen him called so often. But he's still going to lead the league once again (5th time) and that matters.

 

[daver]

Yea, he would've been the CLEAR Hart winner in 2012... Please. Theres no telling how he would've fared that year.

Both hits weren't cheap shots bye the way, Steckel and Hedman didn't injure him intentionally and suffered no discipline as a result.

These types of discussion usually list regular season points, the all time lists that have been compiled by media outlets and the like rarely take post season stats into account. Mainly because they can be circumstantial.

Crosby defenders always seem to bring up "he has more points post season and regular season combined!" ..... I wonder why that is.

When other posters do not give reasonable consideration for injuries. If raw points alone were the only measuring stick, Orr and Mario would be out of the Big Four.

Jean Belleveau is ranked higher than he should be if only based on his regular season raw point totals and trophy wins. Instead his high career PPG and his stellar playoff performances are a big part of his Top 10 ranking.

 

[authentic]

Well you hate Crosby haha.

First off, i wasn't talking about 2012. I was talking about the shortened season (2013) when Orpik hit Sid in the jaw with a slap shot when Crosby was a million miles ahead of everyone in the scoring race. It took the rest of the league a month to catch up and pass him. Sid would have easily won in 2011 and 2013 if not for Steckel and Orpik.

Secondly, go youtube the Steckel "hit". That is more than cheap. It was well after the puck had left Crosby's area and it had nothing to do with the flow of the game. Elbow/shoulder to the head = beyond dirty. The Hedman was a standard boarding call. I'm not homer enough to claim anything other than that. I'm sure it didn't help things because it was directly after the Steckel game.

All i know its Crosby's point per game # is 1.37 to Ovechkin's 1.18 (So Sid with more than 100 fewer games than Ovechkin is right on his heels all time scoring during the regular season) and the last time Crosby has played with (on his line) somebody on Nick Backstrom's talent level was when Hossa was in Pittsburgh for 2 months. Postseason is 1.2 to 1.05. And Ovechkin is about as one dimensional offensively as a scorer as you can get. He relies on the PP to score 37% of his goals. Sid 30%. 40% of Ovechkin's offensive totals come from the PP. Sid 38%. Crosby has been a Rocket Richard winner, and led the league in assists. He's a better ES player which is what the bulk of hockey is played at. Whether you like it or not, he's done more in the postseason. And Ovechkin has been on MULTIPLE number 1 seeded Washingston teams to be dumped in the 1st or 2nd rounds. He's never even played in a Cup final.

Another aspect which is never brought up is that Ovechkin has led the league is shots every single year but 1. And usually by massive margins. Take a look at a guy he's compared with all time as a goal scorer. Mike Bossy. Bossy led that category exactly 0 times and still managed to record incredible goals per game totals. Granted 80's, much higher scoring, but a neat comparison. Take a guy who's played much closer to Ovie. Iginla. He led the league twice in goal scoring and had a couple of top 3's as well. Never once led the league in shot totals. Ovechkin is a volume shooter, not a sniper as i've seen him called so often. But he's still going to lead the league once again (5th time) and that matters.

I agree with everything you're saying here about Crosby, but don't kid yourself about Ovechkin, he absolutely is a sniper regardless of how many shots he takes.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Ovechkin will probably be higher up on the all time left wing position because it is a weaker position than Center. Crosby will finish his career as a top 10 center though. Ovechkin will likely go down as the second best left wing of all time. If he isnt already.

 

[Rhiessan71]

When other posters do not give reasonable consideration for injuries.

First off, reasonable consideration is NOT projecting his exact higher PpG during those shortened seasons over the course of the games missed. Not unless said player has established, pre or post, that he can maintain that level over a FULL season.
Sid has not met that criteria.

Second, a player missing over 50% of his teams games over the course of 3 seasons is a negative, period!
No reasonable person is ever going to accept those 99 of 212 games as a positive no matter how hard you keep trying. So just stop.

Is there a very good chance that Sid wins a couple more Art Ross' and maybe another Hart or two in 2010 and 2012? Sure but here's the thing...HE MISSED 113 OF 212 GAMES SO IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!

If raw points alone were the only measuring stick, Orr and Mario would be out of the Big Four.

So now Crosby is on Orr's and Lemieux's level is he?
Can you please show me where Crosby dominated his peers over multiple full seasons to the degree that Orr and Lemieux dominated theirs?

Good luck with that.

 

[ImporterExporter]

First off, reasonable consideration is NOT projecting his exact higher PpG during those shortened seasons over the course of the games missed. Not unless said player has established, pre or post, that he can maintain that level over a FULL season.
Sid has not met that criteria.

Second, a player missing over 50% of his teams games over the course of 3 seasons is a negative, period!
No reasonable person is ever going to accept those 99 of 212 games as a positive no matter how hard you keep trying. So just stop.

Is there a very good chance that Sid wins a couple more Art Ross' and maybe another Hart or two in 2010 and 2012? Sure but here's the thing...HE MISSED 113 OF 212 GAMES SO IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!



So now Crosby is on Orr's and Lemieux's level is he?
Can you please show me where Crosby dominated his peers over multiple full seasons to the degree that Orr and Lemieux dominated theirs?

Good luck with that.

2010-11, Crosby had 66 in 41. That's half a season. There is no doubt in my mind or anyone else who watched him that year (i have missed very few Pens games over the years) that he wasn't absolutely running away with everything under the sun. You can throw out whatever you want, but he wasn't going to suddenly fall off a cliff if Steckel doesn't scramble his brains. He was 23 in prime physical and dominating. The previous year he had 51 goals and 109 points. He was better in 2010-11. Ask anyone who watched him every night out. I've never seen him at a more dominant level.

2011-12, doesn't factor in. He didn't play enough games to really get a grip on where he'd be. I agree with not factoring in this year.

2012-13. The fact that it took everyone else in the NHL a full month to catch and pass him among scoring is telling. Yeah, it was a shortened season, but he was so far and away the best player that year as well. Hell he won the Lindsay (Pearson) even though he missed those games. The players knew. The voters gave it to the media darling.

And your last part is something i hope people would never suggest. Crosby is nowhere near Orr or Lemieux and never will be. And that comes from a sane (i hope haha) Pens fan.

 

[daver]

First off, reasonable consideration is NOT projecting his exact higher PpG during those shortened seasons over the course of the games missed. Not unless said player has established, pre or post, that he can maintain that level over a FULL season.
Sid has not met that criteria.

I agree and have never stated he was a 1.60ish PPG guy in his partial seasons. If one wants to pace out his partial seasons, what is reasonable, IMO, is he scores at his career PPG the rest of the way. He also was a 160ish PPG after 41 games in his 2007 season and finished at a 125 pt pace. That's another reasonable consideration, IMO.

 

[daver]

So now Crosby is on Orr's and Lemieux's level is he?
Can you please show me where Crosby dominated his peers over multiple full seasons to the degree that Orr and Lemieux dominated theirs?

Good luck with that.

{Mod} ... The point was Crosby deserves consideration to be in a tier with other players who showed similar dominance but loses points to those players peers if his raw points are less.

 

[Rhiessan71]

{Mod} The point was Crosby deserves consideration to be in a tier with other players who showed similar dominance but loses points to those players peers if his raw points are less.

I'm sorry then what point were you trying to make then?

Let's see...
We are talking about Crosby.
We are talking about how OV has more raw points but Crosby has a better PpG.
You mention how Mario and Orr don't have the raw point totals but do have the PpG totals and how that doesn't seem to affect them in the all-time rankings.

Were you not suggesting that Crosby should be afforded the same consideration as Mario and Bobby because I really don't see where else you were going with that or any other reason to bring it up in the first place.


You were trying to subtlety associate Crosby with Orr and Lemieux and I'm not so subtlety bringing my size 13 steel toed ****kicker down hard on that suggestion.

 

[Voight]

The players knew. The voters gave it to the media darling.

You can't be serious. Crosby is the definition of a media darling. Ovechkin has never been that.

 

[Voight]

When other posters do not give reasonable consideration for injuries. If raw points alone were the only measuring stick, Orr and Mario would be out of the Big Four.

No they wouldn't. Orr made the NHL his ***** in the 1970s and changed the way defensemen play the game. His utter dominance over an 8 year stretch puts him in the top 4/the second best of all time.

Mario is still 8th in all time scoring (regular season only) and also had a stretch of dominance (not 8 years, but still was impressive) not to mention broke and made a few records along the way. Would probably be #2 without injuries/early retirement. He's second in PPG to satisfy you and you're obsession with that stat.

If you want to include trophies:

Orr
Awarded the Calder Memorial Trophy (rookie of the year) in 1967, the youngest ever to win the award, and the youngest ever to win a major NHL award up to that time
Named to the Second All-Star Team in 1966–67 (his only full season when he did not make the First Team, as a rookie)
Named to the NHL First All-Star Team eight times consecutively (1968-1975)
Awarded the James Norris Trophy eight times (from 1968 to 1975, his last full season)
Played in the NHL All-Star Game eight times (from 1968 to 1975)
Won the Art Ross Trophy in 1969–70 and 1974–75
NHL Plus/Minus leader in 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1974 and 1975, the most in history
Awarded the Hart Memorial Trophy three times consecutively (1970–1972)
Awarded the Conn Smythe Trophy in 1970 and 1972, the first two-time winner of the playoff MVP award
Stanley Cup winner in 1970 and 1972
Won Lou Marsh Trophy as Canadian athlete of the year in 1970
NHL All-Star Game MVP in 1972
Received Sports Illustrated magazine's "Sportsman of the Year" award in 1970
Awarded the Lester B. Pearson Award in 1975
Named the Canada Cup Tournament MVP in 1976
Awarded the Lester Patrick Trophy in 1979
Inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1979, with the mandatory three-year waiting period waived, making him the youngest inductee at 31 years of age
Voted the second greatest hockey player of all time by an expert committee in 1997 by The Hockey News. Orr is behind only Wayne Gretzky and ahead of Gordie Howe as well as being named the top defenceman of all time. Gretzky said he'd have voted for Orr, or for his hero, Gordie Howe.
Ranked 31 in ESPN's SportsCentury: 50 Greatest Athletes of the 20th Century in 1999
Named the top defenceman of all time in 2010 by The Hockey News

Records
Most points in one NHL season by a defenceman (139; 1970–71)
Most assists in one NHL season by a defenceman (102; 1970–71).
Highest plus/minus in one NHL season (+124; 1970–71)
Tied for most assists in one NHL game by a defenceman (6; tied with Babe Pratt, Pat Stapleton, Ron Stackhouse, Paul Coffey and Gary Suter)
Only player in history to win four major NHL awards in one season (Hart, Norris, Art Ross, and Conn Smythe in 1970), as well as only player to win the Norris and Art Ross in the same season more than once.
Fastest goal from start of overtime to clinch the Stanley Cup - 0:40 - 1970 (game 4)

Lemieux:

Records:
5 goals in different ways in one game (shorthanded, full strength, powerplay, penalty shot, and empty net) (December 31, 1988, against the New Jersey Devils; only player to accomplish the feat) - Not an officially recognized NHL record.
Shorthanded goals, season (13 in 1988–89)
Goals, period (4, 26 January 1997, shares record)
Only player to score 30+ power-play goals in two different seasons
One of only two players to score 10 or more short-handed goals in two different seasons. The other is Wayne Gretzky.
Most goals scored or assisted on, season (57.3% of team's goals, 1988–89)
Only player with three 8-point games
Only player with three 8-point games in one season
Best goals per game in the regular season and playoffs at .750 (Mike Bossy is second with .747)
Third best goals per game in the regular season at .754 (Bossy is first with .762, Cy Denneny is second with .756)

Hockey Hall of Fame – 1997
Stanley Cup champion – 1991, 1992, 2009 (as owner)
Olympic gold medalist — 2002
Hart Memorial Trophy – 1988, 1993, 1996
Art Ross Trophy – 1988, 1989, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997
Conn Smythe Trophy – 1991, 1992
Lester B. Pearson Award – 1986, 1988, 1993, 1996
NHL Plus/Minus Award – 1993
Calder Memorial Trophy – 1985
Chrysler-Dodge/NHL Performer of the Year – 1985, 1986, 1987
Dapper Dan Athlete of The Year – 1986, 1989
Lester Patrick Trophy – 2000
Bill Masterton Trophy – 1993
NHL All-Star Game MVP – 1985, 1988, 1990
NHL First All-Star Team – 1988, 1989, 1993, 1996, 1997
NHL Second All-Star Team – 1986, 1987, 1992, 2001
NHL All-Rookie Team – 1985
CHL Player of the Year - 1984
ESPN Hockey Player of the Decade – 2000
ESPY Award NHL Player of the Year – 1993, 1994, 1998
Lou Marsh Trophy – 1993
In 1998, he was ranked number 4 on The Hockey News' list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players, the highest-ranking French-Canadian player.
Inducted into Canada's Walk of Fame in 2004.
His #66 has been retired by the Pittsburgh Penguins, Team Canada, and Laval Titan.

 

[ImporterExporter]

You can't be serious. Crosby is the definition of a media darling. Ovechkin has never been that.

I am very serious. It's why Crosby won the players vote over the writers. The media largely can't stand Crosby as well as the fan bases. Yes they push him due to ratings and money but that's faux support. He is loathed far more than Ovechkin when you look around the league and listen to people talk.

It doesn't really matter. Both are already well on their way to being top 25-35 players baring any more serious injuries. Obviously being a LW predominately Ovechkin will ascend higher than at his position than Sid simply because C is so deep.

 

[Sadekuuro]

Can we please keep this fanboy stuff on the main board?

 

[Voight]

I am very serious. It's why Crosby won the players vote over the writers. The media largely can't stand Crosby as well as the fan bases. Yes they push him due to ratings and money but that's faux support. He is loathed far more than Ovechkin when you look around the league and listen to people talk.

No he isnt LOL. The media pumps his tires like no other player. You must be living under a rock or something.

 

[livewell68]

Can we please keep this fanboy stuff on the main board?

Good luck with that, I used to love coming to the History section, it's changing now. The usual suspects aren't posting as much as they used to and I miss their insight and input.

 

[Wrath]

Good luck with that, I used to love coming to the History section, it's changing now. The usual suspects aren't posting as much as they used to and I miss their insight and input.

In my opinion the offseason is a little better, also when there is an all-time ranking project they seem to hang around more often too.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Its sad to say but I actually think Ovie will get more recognition than Crosby after its all settled.

Ovie will finish top 5 in goals scored and be compared to Brett Hull.
Crosby will fall short of being that high on any list (because of tougher compeption), and get a little lost in the all-time discussion because he will rank closer to Yzerman and Sakic, and nowhere near Gretzky.

Basically, in 50 years people will be saying "Crosby was a top 10-15 player of all time" as well as "Ovie was arguably the best goal scorer of all time... If not at least top 3-5".

1 top 3 finish, among many top 50 finishes stands out more than consistent top 10 finishes but never top 5.

 

[Skobel24]

Crosby may very well wind up in the top 10 players of all time. Ovechkin will be one of the best wingers, but he's still a ways behind Sid.

 

[SlickHands]

Basically, in 50 years people will be saying "Crosby was a top 10-15 player of all time" as well as "Ovie was arguably the best goal scorer of all time... If not at least top 3-5".

You say you're sad that this will be the reaction, but how is it even inaccurate? You're telling me Crosby deserves to be higher than top 10-15 all time? That's a damn good legacy, and rating him any higher than that would suggest to me that he somehow deserves to be in the conversation of greatest ever. And he doesn't.

 

[Fantomas]

Crosby may very well wind up in the top 10 players of all time. Ovechkin will be one of the best wingers, but he's still a ways behind Sid.

Ovechkin has 120 career point shares. Crosby has 104 (rounded off).

In what way is Crosby superior?

 

[SatanwasaSlovak]

Using the eyeball-test: No way in hell either Crosby or Ovechkin goes into the top-10. To be so good, they have a way of being very unimpressive in big tournaments and games. Crosby haven't impressed in the playoffs, neither in the olympics (yeah, one goal in OT is not being this dominant player that you have to be to be top-10 of all-time) and the same goes for Ovechkin. Maybe they are doing very good against their peers on a day-to-day-basis in the NHL but when it matters, i haven't seen them doing anything noteworthy.

 

[Voight]

Its sad to say but I actually think Ovie will get more recognition than Crosby after its all settled.

Ovie will finish top 5 in goals scored and be compared to Brett Hull.
Crosby will fall short of being that high on any list (because of tougher compeption), and get a little lost in the all-time discussion because he will rank closer to Yzerman and Sakic, and nowhere near Gretzky.
.

How is it sad? Ovechkin is arguably just as good as Crosby.

Also he's already a better player than Brett Hull was, Hull had 3 big years and other than that wasn't on the same level as Ovechkin.

Crosby may very well wind up in the top 10 players of all time. Ovechkin will be one of the best wingers, but he's still a ways behind Sid.

No he isn't lol. If Crosby ends up top 10 of all time Ovechkin probably will too, especially since its very possible he'll end up with more points and hardware.

 

[Wrath]

Crosby may very well wind up in the top 10 players of all time. Ovechkin will be one of the best wingers, but he's still a ways behind Sid.

If their careers ended today and the HoH board started an all-time ranking project I can guarantee that Ovechkin would be ranked higher than Sid. If you don't trust the HoH rankings that's, just saying that based on the way they have voted in the past there's not a chance that Sid flis voted over OV at this point in their careers.

Sid can still easily pass OV in an all time sense, but his injuries have prevented him from doing so thus far.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I agree with everything you're saying here about Crosby, but don't kid yourself about Ovechkin, he absolutely is a sniper regardless of how many shots he takes.

Ovechkin ranks 149th in true shooting %. Stamkos and Nash the 2 guys directly behind him in goals scored rank 32nd and 27th in the NHL. Ovechkin has literally thrown the puck at the net 751 times, had 206 blocked (1st) and 189 misses (1st).

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/stats/nhl-true-shooting-percentage-leaders/2014/

Look Ovechkin is playing the best hockey in quite some time but the definition of a sniper is not what Ovechkin is. He's a volume shooter. He makes his entire offensive living off of taking any shot he can find and putting it on net (not necessarily a bad thing either).