Where do Ovechkin and Crosby Rank?

[BigDucky]

The Ovechkin thread got me thinking about these two and where they fit in all time. The all-time players lists were put together when these guys still only had a few seasons under their belts, and the positional lists obviously don't compare the two because they play different positions. What do y'all think?

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[kmad]

Top 50 right now, top 20 by the end of their careers.

 

[Yamaguchi*]

Ovechkin is among top 10 wingers (most likely No 4 - No 10)

Crosby is in the top 20 centers (most likely No 15 - No 20)

 

[Joedaman55]

I think when both of their careers are over Ovechkin will be around the top 5 area for wingers all time. Crosby I think will be around the 25 range and I am assuming injuries are going to plague his career further than they already have.

EDIT: Crosby will be around the 25 range for centers.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby is a top 20 center. Ovechkin is a top 10 winger.

They each have a ridiculous amount of awards.

 

[Bee Sheriff]

I think straight up listing without positions, Ovechkin will end up considerably better than Crosby, both will be top 50.

 

[Copmuter*]

I've never understood this need to wait until a player's career is over to give them the credit they deserve

I think Crosby is already a top 10 forward of all-time, maybe even top 5

He's 5th all-time in points-per-game

Only Gretzky, Lemieux, Bossy and Orr have out-paced him in production

 

[patnyrnyg]

Both should be top-10 overall.

 

[Fantomas]

I think Ovechkin has already proven to be better than Bossy.

Remember that Both have played 10 seasons (technically just under 10 for Ovy).

 

[drganon]

Crosby is a top 20 center. Ovechkin is a top 10 winger.

They each have a ridiculous amount of awards.

That sounds about right.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

I've never understood this need to wait until a player's career is over to give them the credit they deserve

I think Crosby is already a top 10 forward of all-time, maybe even top 5

He's 5th all-time in points-per-game

Only Gretzky, Lemieux, Bossy and Orr have out-paced him in production

If you're using points-per-game as an argument, you most definitely have to wait until his career is over to make a judgement. Trailing years will almost certainly decrease the point-per-game (Bossy is an obvious outlier).

 

[Hardyvan123]

I think when both of their careers are over Ovechkin will be around the top 5 area for wingers all time. Crosby I think will be around the 25 range and I am assuming injuries are going to plague his career further than they already have.

EDIT: Crosby will be around the 25 range for centers.

as of right now AO is around the 5ish mark for wingers and Sid is a top 20 lock for centers, heck there is an even a strong argument for being in the low teens, ie 11-15.

I think straight up listing without positions, Ovechkin will end up considerably better than Crosby, both will be top 50.

I think Sid will end up better than AO and is ahead of him right now, both are already top 50 locks as well.

I've never understood this need to wait until a player's career is over to give them the credit they deserve

I think Crosby is already a top 10 forward of all-time, maybe even top 5

He's 5th all-time in points-per-game

Only Gretzky, Lemieux, Bossy and Orr have out-paced him in production

If you're using points-per-game as an argument, you most definitely have to wait until his career is over to make a judgement. Trailing years will almost certainly decrease the point-per-game (Bossy is an obvious outlier).

sure Sid's might go down at the end, when ever that comes but he plays in a low scoring era and is still 5th all time in PPG (with an ever increasing sample size), at worst can he fall out of the top 10 all time there?

 

[Big Phil]

There is more to be written here. For players as good as them, both have playoff resumes you wish were a bit better.

There has always been talk that Crosby could end up top 5 (players) of all-time. He'd have to surpass the likes of Beliveau, Hull, etc. No easy task. I think the idea of him catching either of the top 4 is a bygone way of thinking. Beliveau? Maybe.

Ovechkin and Bossy are quite frankly very similar as of now. To be honest though, Ovechkin needs to get out of the 2nd round of the playoffs someday. This is where Bossy still beats him.

 

[Syckle78]

Yea Ovie definitely should of played for dynasty team too so he could be ranked higher.

 

[VanIslander]

The Ovechkin thread got me thinking about these two and where they fit in all time. The all-time players lists were put together when these guys still only had a few seasons under their belts, and the positional lists obviously don't compare the two because they play different positions. What do y'all think?

I think you should check out the All-Time Drafts. Click: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/forumdisplay.php?f=181

Lots of great debates over the years about relative worth of picks. Note: Cook & Makarov are between Bossy and Ovechkin in terms of wingers, and rightfully so imo (it ain't a projection draft; it's based on careers to date).

Round 1

1. ResilientBeast - Los Angeles Sharks - Bobby Orr, D
2. monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionaires - Wayne Gretzky, C
3. Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Mario Lemieux, C
4. Rob Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Gordie Howe, RW
5. Billyshoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Doug Harvey, D
6. Iceman5 - Stockholm Full Throttle - Jean Beliveau, C
7. Stoneberg & rmartin65 - Halifax Citadels - Bobby Hull, LW
8. Reds4Life & Evil Sather - Detroit Red Wings - Raymond Bourque, D
9. Modo - Las Vegas Raiders - Eddie Shore, D
10. markrander87 - Macon Whoopee - Nicklas Lidstrom, D
11. MadArcand - Les Renards d'Orléans - Stan Mikita, C
12. Hawkman & Hedberg - Ottawa 67's - Denis Potvin, D
13. papershoes & BenchBrawl - Kenora Thistles - Maurice Richard, RW
14. 87and71 - Hershey Bears - Patrick Roy, G
15. ted1971 - Quebec Aces - Larry Robinson, D
16. Dwight - West Island Lions - Jaromir Jagr, RW
17. Johnny Engine & peskypenguin4 - NLDA Angry Turnips - Red Kelly, D/C
18. nik jr - Connecticut College Camels - Dominik Hasek, G
19. King Forsberg - Orlando Solar Bears - Mark Messier, C
20. BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Howie Morenz, C
21. jarek & Dreakmur - Montreal Victorias - Bobby Clarke, C
22. tony d - Quebec Nordiques - Guy Lafleur, RW
23. TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Slava Fetisov, D
24. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Chris Chelios, D
25. VanIslander - Kitchener Greenshirts - Frank Nighbor, C
26. Sdrawkcab321 - Cleveland Barons - Steve Yzerman, C
27. TAnnala - Anaheim Axes - Phil Esposito, C
28. tony d - Quebec Nordiques - Brad Park, D
29. Cyborg Yzerman - Hartford Whalers - Bryan Trottier, C
30. Velociraptor - Kentucky Thoroughblades - Joe Sakic, C
31. King Forsberg - Orlando Solar Bears - Paul Coffey, D
32. EagleBelfour - Belfast Giants - Jacques Plante, G

Round 2

33. EagleBelfour - Belfast Giants - Pierre Pilote, D
34. Nalyd Psycho - Boston Bandits - Ted Lindsay, LW
35. Velociraptor - Kentucky Thoroughblades - Valeri Kharlamov, LW
36. Cyborg Yzerman - Hartford Whalers - Mike Bossy, RW
37. Nalyd Psycho - Boston Bandits - Bill Cook, RW
38. TAnnala - Anaheim Axes - King Clancy, D
39. Sdrawkcab321 - Cleveland Barons - Zdeno Chara, D
40. SchultzSquared - Chatham Maroons - Al MacInnis, D
41. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Sergei Makarov, RW
42. TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Cyclone Taylor, C/D
43. VanIslander - Kitchener Greenshirts - Earl Seibert, D
44. jarek & Dreakmur - Montreal Victorias - Sprague Cleghorn, D
45. BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Scott Stevens, D
46. 87and71 - Hershey Bears - Tim Horton, D
47. nik jr - Connecticut College Camels - Newsy Lalonde, C
48. Johnny Engine & peskypenguin4 - NLDA Angry Turnips - Syl Apps, C
49. Dwight - West Island Lions - Chris Pronger, D
50. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Milt Schmidt, C
51. ted1971 - Quebec Aces - Frank Boucher, C
52. papershoes & BenchBrawl - Kenora Thistles - Bill Gadsby, D
53. Hawkman & Hedberg - Ottawa 67's - Marcel Dionne, C
54. MadArcand - Les Renards d'Orléans - Alexander Ovechkin, LW
55. markrander87 - Macon Whoopee - Sidney Crosby, C
...

We presently are on pick 549 of 800 this draft. (Then there will be an all-time great "minor league draft", MLD, of undrafteds from the ATD to rebuild the next-best line-ups: 12F, 6D, 2G and a coach plus extra skaters for a full line-up). We have been doing it here at HfBoards for over a decade. It began on the History board but the ATD threads soon overcluttered the board and it got it's own board elsewhere on HfBoards.

 

[BigDucky]

I think you should check out the All-Time Drafts. Click: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/forumdisplay.php?f=181

Lots of great debates over the years about relative worth of picks. Note: Cook & Makarov are between Bossy and Ovechkin in terms of wingers, and rightfully so imo (it ain't a projection draft; it's based on careers to date).


We presently are on pick 549 of 800 this draft. (Then there will be an all-time great "minor league draft", MLD, of undrafteds from the ATD to rebuild the next-best line-ups: 12F, 6D, 2G and a coach plus extra skaters for a full line-up). We have been doing it here at HfBoards for over a decade. It began on the History board but the ATD threads soon overcluttered the board and it got it's own board elsewhere on HfBoards.

Thanks, I'll check it out. I actually participated in one a few years back.

 

[MXD]

Wow, Morenz picked at 20!?!?!?!!?!

 

[ResilientBeast]

Wow, Morenz picked at 20!?!?!?!!?!

It's because there is a stigma attached to drafting a more shoot first center since there are fewer playmaking wingers that would have good chemistry.

 

[Moose Head]

Yea Ovie definitely should of played for dynasty team too so he could be ranked higher.

Nobody's asking him to have the playoff success of a Bossy, Richard or Lafleur, but getting his team beyond the 2nd round and having some deep runs would improve his resume and improve his alltime standing.

 

[Copmuter*]

Nobody's asking him to have the playoff success of a Bossy, Richard or Lafleur, but getting his team beyond the 2nd round and having some deep runs would improve his resume and improve his alltime standing.

Team accomplishments have no place in a discussion about individual talent...

 

[Moose Head]

Team accomplishments have no place in a discussion about individual talent...

A team's success is ultimately the responsibility of the teams best players. If you don't accept that responsibility, you don't belong in a discussion of whether you are amongst the best. The true greats eventually raise a team beyond expectations and to championships.

Fact. Guys like Lafleur, Bossy, Richard have significantly better playoff numbers than Ovechkin. Until he ups the ante in the playoffs, he is the Dionne of wingers. Like I said, nobody is expecting him to lead a dynasty, but one great playoff run isn't too much to ask if he's as great as advertised, is it? Even the years where the Caps had great teams, he and the Caps didn't get it done.

He has time though. Hell of a talent, but he needs some playoff results, beyond 61pts in 58 playoff games.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

A team's success is ultimately the responsibility of the teams best players. If you don't accept that responsibility, you don't belong in a discussion of whether you are amongst the best. The true greats eventually raise a team beyond expectations and to championships.

Fact. Guys like Lafleur, Bossy, Richard have significantly better playoff numbers than Ovechkin. Until he ups the ante in the playoffs, he is the Dionne of wingers. Like I said, nobody is expecting him to lead a dynasty, but one great playoff run isn't too much to ask if he's as great as advertised, is it? Even the years where the Caps had great teams, he and the Caps didn't get it done.

He has time though. Hell of a talent, but he needs some playoff results, beyond 61pts in 58 playoff games.

Agree with the first part, but calling Ovechkin the Dionne of wingers is awfully harsh on Ovechkin. Dionne was the guy getting outperformed by his teammates in the playoffs; not Ovechkin.

 

[Moose Head]

Agree with the first part, but calling Ovechkin the Dionne of wingers is awfully harsh on Ovechkin. Dionne was the guy getting outperformed by his teammates in the playoffs; not Ovechkin.

Okay, a little harsh, but I think you get the point. He's been a decent playoff performer for the most part, but there is a drop off from his regular season play. Not as much as Dionne, but it's there.

 

[TheNuge]

A team's success is ultimately the responsibility of the teams best players. If you don't accept that responsibility, you don't belong in a discussion of whether you are amongst the best. The true greats eventually raise a team beyond expectations and to championships.

Fact. Guys like Lafleur, Bossy, Richard have significantly better playoff numbers than Ovechkin. Until he ups the ante in the playoffs, he is the Dionne of wingers. Like I said, nobody is expecting him to lead a dynasty, but one great playoff run isn't too much to ask if he's as great as advertised, is it? Even the years where the Caps had great teams, he and the Caps didn't get it done.

He has time though. Hell of a talent, but he needs some playoff results, beyond 61pts in 58 playoff games.

Significantly better numbers?

OV is 1.05ppg in the playoffs
Bossy is a 1.24ppg (playoffs)
Lafleur is 1.04ppg (playoffs)
Richard is .94 PPG (playoffs)

I suggest you dig a little deeper before you start throwing out names, as per your label I guess everyone but Bossy is a "Dionne"

For the record

Crosby is 1.24ppg in the playoffs
Malkin is 1.15ppg in the playoffs

and from my knowledge Crosby is the highest PPG producer of this era in the playoffs and not even he is at Bossy level.

 

[Moose Head]

Significantly better numbers?

OV is 1.05ppg in the playoffs
Bossy is a 1.24ppg (playoffs)
Lafleur is 1.04ppg (playoffs)
Richard is .94 PPG (playoffs)

I suggest you dig a little deeper before you start throwing out names, as per your label I guess everyone but Bossy is a "Dionne"

For the record

Crosby is 1.24ppg in the playoffs
Malkin is 1.15ppg in the playoffs

and from my knowledge Crosby is the highest PPG producer of this era in the playoffs and not even he is at Bossy level.

Geez, so you think Ovechkin is a better playoff performer than Lafleur and Richard were? (mod)