What's Your Ideal D Lineup For Next Season

[Dr Johnny Fever]

You sure it isn't personal? Kinda seems like you're taking it hard.

Not on my part it isn't. But often it's obvious you can't have a decent back and forth with some people so it kind of becomes a one sided discussion. When an unpopular view gets expressed some people feel the need to immediately jump in and take pot shots at anybody who dares disagree with their all knowing analysis.

I don't worship him. I just think that the organization has a better immediate replacement for Vatanen than for Fowler. I also think there's a very good chance that Vatanen will cost more than Fowler come July 1, and I'd rather keep Lindholm than Vatanen.

I also don't think he's nearly as bad as people make out around here. He had a great game tonight and not one of the posters who flood the GDT when he makes an error said a word about it.

I know you don't. But others here do and it's pretty obvious at times.

As for the GDTs, yeah well they are their own joke. People use good and bad plays to try and support their big picture view. I've never done that. One game is meaningless when evaluating anybody. But yeah, that's where it seems like people like to take pot shots and thump their chest when one play goes their way. It's boorish but you can count on it like clockwork.

 

[DaDucks*]

you could argue because Kesler plays with better linemates. Fowler pretty much always plays with either Bieksa or Holzer, only recently started to play with Despres. Pair Fowler with a not concussed Despres for a season and his stats are probably better.

one could also argue if Cam did a better job at finishing his opportunities, his stats wouldn't be merely as bad. One could also argue that there are more scoring opportunities in the middle of the ice, and not the outside, where Cam often resides.

 

[Ducks in a row]

I've had that discussion before and freely admitted most players are better when surrounded by better players. That's not the point. The point is that when anybody dares to say Fowler is overrated here and points to anything statistical or otherwise to defend the point, the answer back is always "it's because he has lousy partners". None of his defenders admit that he is far from consistent, regardless of partner. It's always blamed on his lack of better partners.

But I'm done trying to make the simple point that Fowler is far from the stud he is made out to be here. You all can keep worshiping him.

Some facts about Cam Fowler

He has been used more in a defensive role

He has had poor defense partners for a long time

He is worse then Justin Schultz based on warrior charts

He hasn't been used to his best abilities on the power play

Their are fans disappointed in him not being better offensively

He has been good in the playoffs better then in regular season

If someone tries to use advanced stats against him the bolded is a great reason why some people don't take much stock in the advanced stats.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Some facts about Cam Fowler

He has been used more in a defensive role

He has had poor defense partners for a long time

He is worse then Justin Schultz based on warrior charts

He hasn't been used to his best abilities on the power play

Their are fans disappointed in him not being better offensively

He has been good in the playoffs better then in regular season

If someone tries to use advanced stats against him the bolded is a great reason why some people don't take much stock in the advanced stats.

I wasn't referring to any specif advanced stat. But thanks for cherry picking to prove why no stats have meaning when questioning his value.

 

[Ducks in a row]

I wasn't referring to any specif advanced stat. But thanks for cherry picking to prove why no stats have meaning when questioning his value.

Well advanced stats get used a lot by people to say he isn't as good as think he is.

OK will list some other stats

Power Play Points
Vatanen 19 in 71 games
Fowler 17 in 69 games
Lindholm 15 in 80 games

For someone that Ducks fans haven't been that happy with on the power play he is doing alright especially when not used to best of his abilities.

Fowler 22:46 leads all Ducks defenseman

28 total points in 69 games tied 2nd most points on the blueline

Off Zone Start 44.3% the lowest Off Zone Start of all our defenseman http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67#

 

[Paul4587]

He had 1G 3A in the 13 games Fowler was out, and 3 of those points were on the PP. His ES production fell off of a cliff. And that's as the second pairing guy.

Firstly that's an incredibly small sample size to come to the conclusion that Vatanen would produce that poorly over a whole season without Fowler and secondly if you include the game Fowler went down in where he only played 3 shifts Vatanen actually had 6 points in 14 games.

OK will list some other stats

Power Play Points
Vatanen 19 in 71 games
Fowler 17 in 69 games
Lindholm 15 in 80 games

For someone that Ducks fans haven't been that happy with on the power play he is doing alright especially when not used to best of his abilities.

He did somehow manage to notch up 17 PP points this season but I still don't think he's the best option on the number one unit alongside Vatanen. In terms of time on ice, Fowler had far more PP minutes (over 40 more minutes which included getting 5 on 3 time which Lindholm didn't get) than Lindholm playing on a much better unit yet he only outscored him by two points.

The first PP unit was really good this year. I think it would have been even better with Lindholm over Fowler.

 

[Ducks DVM]

Firstly that's an incredibly small sample size to come to the conclusion that Vatanen would produce that poorly over a whole season without Fowler and secondly if you include the game Fowler went down in where he only played 3 shifts Vatanen actually had 6 points in 14 games.

I didn't include the Philly game for a couple of reasons. It wasn't a normal D rotation, and the matchups tend to be more scrambled when we go to five guys. Also, Fowler assisted on Vatanen's goal (so that one clearly doesn't count), and his assist came when he made a simple breakup at his blue line, then made a line change while Perry went 1 on 4 from mid-ice and scored - Vatanen wasn't even on the ice when the goal was scored.

The team scored 37 goals in that 13 game window. Vatanen had 1 ES point. There may not be much evidence that to say that he can't produce offensively with more defensive responsibility, but there's no evidence to say that he can, and it's a valid point to bring up for everyone comparing his production to Fowler's.he SHOULD improve in the future, but comparing what the two do is an apples and oranges comparison right now, similar to the Schultz-Fowler thing. Until there's an extended period of time when Vatanen takes all the D zone responsibilities and Fowler gets all of the 3rd pair of matchups, it's not a case of simply looking at the numbers.

 

[Duck Off]

Lindholm Manson are both top five in corsi suppression that should be a pairing for the next decade
Despres theo
Bieksa vatanen

I like Manson, a lot, but I think he has quickly become the most overrated player on our team here. He's a great young defenseman on a steal of a contract, but he's making a ton of mistakes on the 2nd pair. No way should he be penciled in on the first pair next year.

Ideal pairs next year:

Fowler-Despres
Lindholm-Manson
Theodore-Vatanen

I really don't want to trade any of our defenseman, but I still believe in trading Vatanen before Fowler. I don't think he's been near as good since he came back from injury, but I do think he's easily been our best defenseman this season. I expect Lindholm to eventually be our #1 defenseman, and I think Fowler will be great as a #2.

As far as trading Stoner and/or Bieksa. Ideally both are gone. However, with the expansion rumors going around, I think trading Bieksa has to be priority.

A more realistic ideal scenario for me would be:
Fowler-Despres
Lindholm-Manson
Stoner-Theodore

Again, I don't want to see Vatanen traded, but with Montour and Theo progressing, it seems inevitable that one of our 3 go, and Vatanen is the most expendable IMO.

 

[Sojourn]

I've had that discussion before and freely admitted most players are better when surrounded by better players. That's not the point. The point is that when anybody dares to say Fowler is overrated here and points to anything statistical or otherwise to defend the point, the answer back is always "it's because he has lousy partners". None of his defenders admit that he is far from consistent, regardless of partner. It's always blamed on his lack of better partners.

But I'm done trying to make the simple point that Fowler is far from the stud he is made out to be here. You all can keep worshiping him.

Meh. He's inconsistent. Some games he's great, other games he's more average. Average as a top 4 defenseman who is asked to anchor his D pairing, but average. The inconsistency is a problem though, because he consistently has top responsibilities, except in the games Boudreau wants the more physical match up.

I'm also not so sure he's alone in that. I think all of our young D has been pretty inconsistent. Lindholm has had his ups and downs. Vatanen has. Despres certainly has. Manson has. It's been a common theme all season. We currently don't have that guy we can trust, every single night. Early on, Fowler was a stud. Then Lindholm was a stud. Both of them hit a point where they stopped being that. Since then, I think the D overall has been more all-around solid. Less a case where an individual defenseman is standing out, and more the entire team being solid.

 

[Duck Off]

Meh. He's inconsistent. Some games he's great, other games he's more average. Average as a top 4 defenseman who is asked to anchor his D pairing, but average. The inconsistency is a problem though, because he consistently has top responsibilities, except in the games Boudreau wants the more physical match up.

I'm also not so sure he's alone in that. I think all of our young D has been pretty inconsistent. Lindholm has had his ups and downs. Vatanen has. Despres certainly has. Manson has. It's been a common theme all season. We currently don't have that guy we can trust, every single night. Early on, Fowler was a stud. Then Lindholm was a stud. Both of them hit a point where they stopped being that. Since then, I think the D overall has been more all-around solid. Less a case where an individual defenseman is standing out, and more the entire team being solid.

This is a great post.

All of our defenseman have been inconsistent this year. Fowler's inconsistencies are just highlighted more because he faces more difficult matchups more often than not.

That said, I still think he's clearly been our best defenseman this year.

 

[Ducks Nation*]

Now what would you guys want?

 

[Getzmonster]

Now what would you guys want?

I don't know about Cam v. Vats, but I do know that I'd be happy investing in a Lindholm-Vatanen top pairing for years to come. The second pairing is the issue though, and without Cam would lean heavily on Despres, at least for now, and while I'm not as down on him as others right now, it's still a frightening idea.

I keep picturing the Cam from last season's playoffs, and the beginning of this season up until his injury. That guy was great. This current guy... not so much.

edit: I guess we could see Manson with Hammer, and a Desp-Vats 2nd pairing, but I'm not at all sold on Manson as our #1RD (fancy stats can eat me), or the chemistry between 24-45 being very good.

 

[2faded]

As I said in the GDT, IF one of Vats or Fowler has to be moved, it needs to be Fowler. You need to have no fear to win in the playoffs and Fowler is scared. But, if BM can keep both then keep Fowler until his contract is up. BB needs to commit to Lindholm getting the most minute though

 

[Getzmonster]

As I said in the GDT, IF one of Vats or Fowler has to be moved, it needs to be Fowler. You need to have no fear to win in the playoffs and Fowler is scared. But, if BM can keep both then keep Fowler until his contract is up. BB needs to commit to Lindholm getting the most minute though

If Murray must move a young D (debatable I guess), and shaking up the core is also on the table (also debatable), as much as it would suck, moving Cam sort of kills two birds with one stone.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

As I said in the GDT, IF one of Vats or Fowler has to be moved, it needs to be Fowler. You need to have no fear to win in the playoffs and Fowler is scared. But, if BM can keep both then keep Fowler until his contract is up. BB needs to commit to Lindholm getting the most minute though

And let him walk? If BM isn't committed to Cam long term, now is the time to move him. Bob's got some tough decisions this summer. Tougher than the previous years. It's time for him to put his big GM pants on.

 

[gratefulyours]

still think it is to early to give up on a guy who is just entering his prime years.

if we have to trade a dman that isn't stoner or bieksa, i would vote for vats.

we have a replacement for him and he just can't take the matchups fowler does defensively.

 

[Ducks Nation*]

still think it is to early to give up on a guy who is just entering his prime years.

if we have to trade a dman that isn't stoner or bieksa, i would vote for vats.

we have a replacement for him and he just can't take the matchups fowler does defensively.

Fowler can't take the matchups he does defensively.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

And let him walk? If BM isn't committed to Cam long term, now is the time to move him. Bob's got some tough decisions this summer. Tougher than the previous years. It's time for him to put his big GM pants on.

I think if he's able to move two of Bieksa/Stoner/Despres, he can hold off on the big decision for a year, but only one year. But I don't see him moving two of those guys right now.

 

[nbducksfan19]

Fowler can't take the matchups he does defensively.

ding ding ding. I am so tired of Fowler's usage being a feather in his cap. Ultimately, he does not do a good job with his defensive starts and tough matchups, so what does it matter? There are elite Dmen, who get the tough matchups and don't do incredibly poorly in the stats department, Fowler is not one of them (however, Lindholm is/will be imo).

It is my opinion that Vatanen may not be able to take the toughest matchups either, but we don't know for sure, and at least he will battle his hardest to do so. What we do know and have seen, is Fowler has proven he cannot.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

I think if he's able to move two of Bieksa/Stoner/Despres, he can hold off on the big decision for a year, but only one year. But I don't see him moving two of those guys right now.

Yes, he could. But that would imply that Sami gets re-signed and then after holding off a year Fowler is down to one year left. He would be moveable but if Bob already knows he wants to move Cam, he will get a better price now. Maybe even somebody who could help this team make another run next year. If we could trade Fowler for Drouin +, I'd be fine with that. But I don't know if Drouin is even still on the market.

 

[Ducks Nation*]

If we are moving Fowler do it now, who the hell is going to give anything significant next year when he only has 1 year left til UFA?

 

[nbducksfan19]

Yes, he could. But that would imply that Sami gets re-signed and then after holding off a year Fowler is down to one year left. He would be moveable but if Bob already knows he wants to move Cam, he will get a better price now. Maybe even somebody who could help this team make another run next year. If we could trade Fowler for Drouin +, I'd be fine with that. But I don't know if Drouin is even still on the market.

if we could get Drouin + Palat/Kilorn for Fowler + I would be very pumped

 

[manspaceman]

I wouldn't want to be a Lindholm injury away from having Vatanen being the #1D in the lineup.

But isn't that the situation already, with or without Fowler in the roster?

I'd keep Bieksa over Despres.

 

[Ducks Nation*]

if we could get Drouin + Palat/Kilorn for Fowler + I would be very pumped

Yeah right, Drouin alone maybe now after the post season he is having.

 

[Getzmonster]

I think if he's able to move two of Bieksa/Stoner/Despres, he can hold off on the big decision for a year, but only one year. But I don't see him moving two of those guys right now.

I have strong doubts that Murray is even looking to move two of those three. He's an old school guy, and obviously highly values his crease-clearing types given how he throws money and term at them.