What we had. Jason Spezza.

[Holdurbreathe]

Unfortunately hindsight is all we can use in order to have discussions on past events in the world of hockey.

Everything in my post was relating to the fact that you think that signing Spezza for what he he got in Dallas was wrong because he isn't a #1 center any more.

Spezza's only criteria was to win. He can't help the holes management made in the line up.

I don't think management were interested in extending Spezza because they needed him to get to a certain point. Keeping the team just good enough to keeping fans coming while they stock piled picks and developed them. Meanwhile he maintained his production

You argue that on one hand Spezza isn't a #1 center because he had a down year even though he out scored both his linemates then in another post say that he was a #1 center when his line mates had career years. This helps explain my argument even more because it shows that his down year wasn't his fault. It pretty much shows he did what he could with what he had to work with. Spezza had a knack for getting career seasons out of his linmates (Alfie 103pts, Heatley 103pts, Michalek 35g, Greening 37pts, Karlsson 78pts)

When Spezza signed with Dallas he had no connection with them like he did with Ottawa so asking for the going rate for a #1 center because he was one was not a surprise. Spezza's life was in Ottawa and in my opinion wanted to stay here. In order to win I think he was the type of person who would have sacrificed money for that opportunity but only if the goal was to truly win. Let's just say Spezza agreed to sign for 6.5m over 4 years, a year latter when Ryan's contract were due and the goal was to win, you may have been able to convince Ryan to take a similar contract. Sacrifice 1 million and Murray goes out and finds that top forward and D man to make a run. We will never know.

They traded for Mac and Ryan to help Spezza? The Same Spezza who had 84 points and 2 linemates who had career years? In 2013 management knew that Greening and Michalek were not good enough and waited until the last second to bring in Hemsky which had positive effects but was too little too late. Ryan was probably brought in to play on the first line but mac wasn't. The addition of Ryan and Mac were to fill holes in our top 2 lines that were vacated by the loss of Alfie. Losing Alfie left 2 holes in our lineup, the player to replace Alfie and the player we had to give up to get Ryan. Those 2 moves got Ottawa back to were they were prior to Alfie's departure and we were not any better. We were still looking for another top 6 forward and that's why Hemsky was brought in.

As for Ryan, to date he has played like a 5 million dollar player and is nowhere near the caliber of player Spezza was. I would take Spezza's phantom back passes over Ryan's slumps any day.

The biggest problems for this team was the loss of Alfie and the financial restraints. Those 2 things made management change their strategies in a snap of a finger from going from trying to win (with Maclean) to trying to develop with (Cameron). Spezza was caught in the middle.

Think you need to stop suggesting I made comments I never made and keep things in context of the discussion.

My 2012 comment was in response to your "Spezza by himself might not produce point per game numbers but on a line with Greening and Ol' dirty knees Michalek".

The point being was he played like a #1 center then, but not when he played with "Greening and " Ol' dirty knees" two years later.

It is you that can't have it both ways, can't say Greening and Michalek had career years because of Spezza, then say Spezza has a down year because of the same two guys.

Fact is Jason suffered a significant back problem that effected his game and unfortunately he couldn't play at the same level and it is why he is the #2 guy in Dallas. Spezza still has great offensive instincts, but he can't carry a top line playing 20+ minutes a game anymore.

Ottawa didn't need Spezza playing line 1b minutes at $8M a year, which is what he really did in his last season here.

One more comparative, in his down year in Ottawa he played 75 games, produced 66 PTS, including 22 PPP, and averaged 18:12 TOI/GP playing with table scraps.

Last season with Dallas he played all 82 games, produced 62 points, including 26PPP, averaging 17:13 TOI/GP.

Spezza appears to be trending downward in his productivity and it all can't be blamed on linemates, unless Nill forced him to play with even less talented table scraps.

This was the point of my original post and the following post, both of which you seemed to misinterpret.

Again I hope Jason does well and he and his family are happy in Dallas.

Lastly, the bolded.

I disagree simply because it isn't true.

Management started to rebuild back in 2011 when they traded Fisher and Kelly and announced their strategy to draft and develop believing it was the solution to long term competitiveness.

Melnyk clearly stated they were going to spend money on development and NOT chase high profile free agents. It was also quite clear they would only pursue younger experienced NHL players in trades to expedite the rebuild process.

The Sens have pretty much stayed the course and followed the plan.

Fact is there was no need to spend like crazy simply because the cost to acquire top tier players wasn't only in money, but also top prospects like Stone, Zibanejad, Hoffman, Ceci, and Pageau.

While people continue to beat this spending drum, it really has no merit IMO.

Finally I do agree they missed Alfie, but his leaving shouldn't have caused Spezza to play less than inspired hockey.

 

[Stylizer1]

I have a hard time believing that Spezza would have given us a discount. He didn't on his previous contract so why would he now. He also asked for a trade (regardless of his reasons as Stylizer pointed out) and at the time his request became public, he had apparently asked in previous years, so saying he wanted to be here long term also doesn't seem believable.

I think that both sides wanted to move on. Sens wanted more of a 2 way center group and I think Spezza just wanted a fresh start somewhere else and maybe found that captaincy wasn't for him. There is no way he could have given up the C and lived it out in Ottawa, he would have been roasted by media and fans.

I find it hard to believe that he only figured out what the captaincy was all about the first year he had it. Alfie wanted to win and so did Spezza and they both left. If you remember Spezza signed his extension just after going to the finals along with Heately.

After making 60 million over a 12 year career I don't think it would be that far off to suggest he may take a 4 million dollar hit over 4 years to help the team try and win. He took somewhat of a front loaded contract so that his pay would be 5 and 4 million in the final 2 seasons. Just like Alfredsson did in his last 2 seasons with the sens.

As I remember he didn't just come out and ask for a trade. He spoke to Murray about it in 2011 because Murray was trading away most of the team and he thought they didn't need to do that. We don't know what happened in that meeting to convince Spezza to stay but I am sure it wasn't "We're going to keep you around so that we can rebuild this team to the point that we don't need you". I remember when the were trying to win it for Alfie and trying to win it for Murray. That sentiment kind of fizzled out the last few seasons when it was clear the team had no intention of going for it.

Murray had a job to do by keeping fans interested enough to come. Murray comes off as a real honest guy but I think he is as much a manipulator and uses the press flawlessly to convey what he wants. The misunderstanding with Alfredsson, The all of a sudden unhappiness with Maclean, throwing Spezza under the bus when Spezza came out in later interviews which were opposite of what Murray said.

Here is a video of Spezza talking about the captaincy:

http://video.stars.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=736756

Was Spezza also concerned about Ottawa’s ability to spend enough to ice a contender? Perhaps. Certainly Alfredsson’s departure was tied to money and the Senators ability to contend. Presenting Act II of the drama, Captains Who Won’t Go Down with the Ship.


“We’ve obviously put the ‘C’ on the wrong people here,†Senators general manager Bryan Murray said, then added, “no, I don’t know. It’s disappointing when you lose good people. â€


Murray insists there is another side to the financial story – he offered Spezza an extension, he says, but “perception is what you make it to be.†The GM declined to say what level of hockey budget he will have, promising fans a hard-working competitive team.


“If you do it right, you don’t always have to be right up against the cap,†Murray said. No, but the Stanley Cup winners tend to live in that neighbourhood.



Wayne Scanlan, Ottawa Citizen

Spezza commenting on not having the "C".

http://video.stars.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=724387

I'm pretty sure this can put to rest he couldn't handle being the captain.

At no point did Spezza ever talk bad about the Sens in any interview I have seen him in. In Murray's comments though he always wants to make it clear that he is not the bad guy and likes to throw out reason(s) to make it look like he did everything possible.

 

[Stylizer1]

Think you need to stop suggesting I made comments I never made and keep things in context of the discussion.

My 2012 comment was in response to your "Spezza by himself might not produce point per game numbers but on a line with Greening and Ol' dirty knees Michalek".

The point being was he played like a #1 center then, but not when he played with "Greening and " Ol' dirty knees" two years later.

It is you that can't have it both ways, can't say Greening and Michalek had career years because of Spezza, then say Spezza has a down year because of the same two guys.

Fact is Jason suffered a significant back problem that effected his game and unfortunately he couldn't play at the same level and it is why he is the #2 guy in Dallas. Spezza still has great offensive instincts, but he can't carry a top line playing 20+ minutes a game anymore.

Ottawa didn't need Spezza playing line 1b minutes at $8M a year, which is what he really did in his last season here.

One more comparative, in his down year in Ottawa he played 75 games, produced 66 PTS, including 22 PPP, and averaged 18:12 TOI/GP playing with table scraps.

Last season with Dallas he played all 82 games, produced 62 points, including 26PPP, averaging 17:13 TOI/GP.

Spezza appears to be trending downward in his productivity and it all can't be blamed on linemates, unless Nill forced him to play with even less talented table scraps.

This was the point of my original post and the following post, both of which you seemed to misinterpret.

Again I hope Jason does well and he and his family are happy in Dallas.

Lastly, the bolded.

I disagree simply because it isn't true.

Management started to rebuild back in 2011 when they traded Fisher and Kelly and announced their strategy to draft and develop believing it was the solution to long term competitiveness.

Melnyk clearly stated they were going to spend money on development and NOT chase high profile free agents. It was also quite clear they would only pursue younger experienced NHL players in trades to expedite the rebuild process.

The Sens have pretty much stayed the course and followed the plan.

Fact is there was no need to spend like crazy simply because the cost to acquire top tier players wasn't only in money, but also top prospects like Stone, Zibanejad, Hoffman, Ceci, and Pageau.

While people continue to beat this spending drum, it really has no merit IMO.

Finally I do agree they missed Alfie, but his leaving shouldn't have caused Spezza to play less than inspired hockey.

Agree to disagree.

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

I find it humorous that many are comparing Ryan to Spezza when he had 8 less points than Spezza in 4 less games while slumping for nearly a month and a half while playing with two rookies on his line.

Meanwhile, Spezza played with the Art Ross winner and Tyler Seguin on the powerplay.

And Ryan back checked like a demon last year. When he wasn't scoring, at least he wasn't scored on.

 

[Stylizer1]

I find it humorous that many are comparing Ryan to Spezza when he had 8 less points than Spezza in 4 less games while slumping for nearly a month and a half while playing with two rookies on his line.

Meanwhile, Spezza played with the Art Ross winner and Tyler Seguin on the powerplay.

And Ryan back checked like a demon last year. When he wasn't scoring, at least he wasn't scored on.

New team different dynamic. How can you possibly compare?

Do you honestly think Spezza would have only 8 more points if he were on a line with Stone and Hoffman?

 

[Xamar*]

Well ok then.

I must have you confused with someone else from those threads. My apologies.

Probably me.

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

New team different dynamic. How can you possibly compare?

Do you honestly think Spezza would have only 8 more points if he were on a line with Stone and Hoffman?

So Ryan is expected to develop instant chemistry but Jason Spezza, since he moved, needs a season or two...?

Keep moving those goal posts. You might be able to get to the point you're trying to make.

 

[BonkTastic]

Probably me.

Hmm, yes. Possibly.

 

[Stylizer1]

So Ryan is expected to develop instant chemistry but Jason Spezza, since he moved, needs a season or two...?

Keep moving those goal posts. You might be able to get to the point you're trying to make.

Great, the brains of the operation.

Being the one that the offense runs through to becoming one that is a support would be a bigger difference than coming from a team where you are on the 2nd line and joining a new team on the second line.

You would think with the departure of Spezza that Ryan would become better and yet a second season of below average play and 2 rookies out scoring him.

But he used to be a 30 goal scorer so it's okay i guess. Maybe this year he actually earns his salary.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Yashin was definitely the most naturally skilled player in the modern history of the team. Also one of the top 3 jerks.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I find it hard to believe that he only figured out what the captaincy was all about the first year he had it. Alfie wanted to win and so did Spezza and they both left. If you remember Spezza signed his extension just after going to the finals along with Heately.

After making 60 million over a 12 year career I don't think it would be that far off to suggest he may take a 4 million dollar hit over 4 years to help the team try and win. He took somewhat of a front loaded contract so that his pay would be 5 and 4 million in the final 2 seasons. Just like Alfredsson did in his last 2 seasons with the sens.

As I remember he didn't just come out and ask for a trade. He spoke to Murray about it in 2011 because Murray was trading away most of the team and he thought they didn't need to do that. We don't know what happened in that meeting to convince Spezza to stay but I am sure it wasn't "We're going to keep you around so that we can rebuild this team to the point that we don't need you". I remember when the were trying to win it for Alfie and trying to win it for Murray. That sentiment kind of fizzled out the last few seasons when it was clear the team had no intention of going for it.

Murray had a job to do by keeping fans interested enough to come. Murray comes off as a real honest guy but I think he is as much a manipulator and uses the press flawlessly to convey what he wants. The misunderstanding with Alfredsson, The all of a sudden unhappiness with Maclean, throwing Spezza under the bus when Spezza came out in later interviews which were opposite of what Murray said.

Here is a video of Spezza talking about the captaincy:

http://video.stars.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=736756



Spezza commenting on not having the "C".

http://video.stars.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=724387

I'm pretty sure this can put to rest he couldn't handle being the captain.

At no point did Spezza ever talk bad about the Sens in any interview I have seen him in. In Murray's comments though he always wants to make it clear that he is not the bad guy and likes to throw out reason(s) to make it look like he did everything possible.

I loved Spezza, still have jerseys with his name on them. I thought he was our best player on our finals run.

I respect your opinion on him.

I just can't bite on this though. I think he wanted out regardless of how it was worded by either side, it just seems clear to me that it was time to split for both sides. I think it was the right time to move on because imo his best years are behind him and we still got a decent package of assets/cap space rather than him walking for nothing a year later.

 

[Hutz]

How can you not miss this.

 

[BonkTastic]

Great, the brains of the operation.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

Great, the brains of the operation.

Being the one that the offense runs through to becoming one that is a support would be a bigger difference than coming from a team where you are on the 2nd line and joining a new team on the second line.

You would think with the departure of Spezza that Ryan would become better and yet a second season of below average play and 2 rookies out scoring him.

But he used to be a 30 goal scorer so it's okay i guess. Maybe this year he actually earns his salary.

Throughout this entire thread, you've continued to pass off baseless assumptions you have accepted as truths and tried to pass them on to the rest of us as facts.

I'll wait for you to provide the NHL study that shows that changing teams is much more difficult than playing with two rookies. Because your "role change" arguments holds as much water as your laughable assertion that Spezza would have taken less than money to continue to play here. Especially when Ryan changed his role to actually play both ends of the ice. And he managed to change his game in one season. Whereas, Spezza continues to struggle in the defensive end today.

The above posts continues to illustrate you have no point other than your need to continue your "it's management's fault about everything" agenda.

Keep going, it's amusing.

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

I think he's setting us up to let us know how Dallas dry heat affected Spezza's on-ice play and how Ottawa's more humid air would be better for Jason's skin so therefore h would have signed a 4 year deal for less money than Turris' contract.

That's probably his next angle.

 

[Stylizer1]

Throughout this entire thread, you've continued to pass off baseless assumptions you have accepted as truths and tried to pass them on to the rest of us as facts.

I'll wait for you to provide the NHL study that shows that changing teams is much more difficult than playing with two rookies. Because your "role change" arguments holds as much water as your laughable assertion that Spezza would have taken less than money to continue to play here. Especially when Ryan changed his role to actually play both ends of the ice. And he managed to change his game in one season. Whereas, Spezza continues to struggle in the defensive end today.

The above posts continues to illustrate you have no point other than your need to continue your "it's management's fault about everything" agenda.

Keep going, it's amusing.

Everything in this thread that I have posted is my opinion. What you determine as fact is really just your opinion too.

Get over yourself.

 

[topshelf15]

Think you need to stop suggesting I made comments I never made and keep things in context of the discussion.

My 2012 comment was in response to your "Spezza by himself might not produce point per game numbers but on a line with Greening and Ol' dirty knees Michalek".

The point being was he played like a #1 center then, but not when he played with "Greening and " Ol' dirty knees" two years later.

It is you that can't have it both ways, can't say Greening and Michalek had career years because of Spezza, then say Spezza has a down year because of the same two guys.

Fact is Jason suffered a significant back problem that effected his game and unfortunately he couldn't play at the same level and it is why he is the #2 guy in Dallas. Spezza still has great offensive instincts, but he can't carry a top line playing 20+ minutes a game anymore.

Ottawa didn't need Spezza playing line 1b minutes at $8M a year, which is what he really did in his last season here.

One more comparative, in his down year in Ottawa he played 75 games, produced 66 PTS, including 22 PPP, and averaged 18:12 TOI/GP playing with table scraps.

Last season with Dallas he played all 82 games, produced 62 points, including 26PPP, averaging 17:13 TOI/GP.

Spezza appears to be trending downward in his productivity and it all can't be blamed on linemates, unless Nill forced him to play with even less talented table scraps.

This was the point of my original post and the following post, both of which you seemed to misinterpret.

Again I hope Jason does well and he and his family are happy in Dallas.

Lastly, the bolded.

I disagree simply because it isn't true.

Management started to rebuild back in 2011 when they traded Fisher and Kelly and announced their strategy to draft and develop believing it was the solution to long term competitiveness.

Melnyk clearly stated they were going to spend money on development and NOT chase high profile free agents. It was also quite clear they would only pursue younger experienced NHL players in trades to expedite the rebuild process.

The Sens have pretty much stayed the course and followed the plan.

Fact is there was no need to spend like crazy simply because the cost to acquire top tier players wasn't only in money, but also top prospects like Stone, Zibanejad, Hoffman, Ceci, and Pageau.

While people continue to beat this spending drum, it really has no merit IMO.

Finally I do agree they missed Alfie, but his leaving shouldn't have caused Spezza to play less than inspired hockey.

Awesome post ,Spezza was and is a falling star ,we enjoyed the best part of his career .But him leaving was best for both parties

 

[Stylizer1]

I loved Spezza, still have jerseys with his name on them. I thought he was our best player on our finals run.

I respect your opinion on him.

I just can't bite on this though. I think he wanted out regardless of how it was worded by either side, it just seems clear to me that it was time to split for both sides. I think it was the right time to move on because imo his best years are behind him and we still got a decent package of assets/cap space rather than him walking for nothing a year later.

I think he wanted out too. The problem is everybody has their reasons why. My opinion was that he would have stayed if management was committed to improving the roster to win. I think management said no and that they wanted to develop more and it made the decision for him.

Fans now know it's a wait and see approach as to a 1 or 2 players away from making a run at it. Murray has always said he was looking for a top forward and a top Dman but never went out and got them. All of the fans were waiting for it and it never happened. Now with how last season played out we know definitively that the team is solely looking to develop. The acquisition of Hemsky was a halfhearted attempt to keep fans interested and make the team a little better.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Where's the video for "goals against"?

First post wins this thread.

Ah yes, the classic "false outrage of defamation"....

Not one person in this thread thus far has "piled on" Spezza.

I'm looking forward to the Ales Hemsky, Christoph Schubert and Oleg Saprykin threads in the "What we had." series. Should be enlightening.

Loooooooooooool, great post.

 

[Cosmix]

Yashin was definitely the most naturally skilled player in the modern history of the team. Also one of the top 3 jerks.

I don't see Yashin as "the most naturally skilled player in the modern history of the team". Spezza and Karlson come to mind before him. Hossa and Havlat would earn some consideration too.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I don't see Yashin as "the most naturally skilled player in the modern history of the team". Spezza and Karlson come to mind before him. Hossa and Havlat would earn some consideration too.

Yashin is definitely ahead of Spezza. But yes, Karlsson is at the point now of leaping ahead of Yashin.

 

[Stylizer1]

Yashin is definitely ahead of Spezza. But yes, Karlsson is at the point now of leaping ahead of Yashin.

Now you've lost me.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

I think he wanted out too. The problem is everybody has their reasons why. My opinion was that he would have stayed if management was committed to improving the roster to win. I think management said no and that they wanted to develop more and it made the decision for him.

Fans now know it's a wait and see approach as to a 1 or 2 players away from making a run at it. Murray has always said he was looking for a top forward and a top Dman but never went out and got them. All of the fans were waiting for it and it never happened. Now with how last season played out we know definitively that the team is solely looking to develop. The acquisition of Hemsky was a halfhearted attempt to keep fans interested and make the team a little better.

Bob Mackenzie interviewed Peter Chiarelli recently for TSN.

It covers the Oilers obviously, however Bob asked Peter if he would be willing to trade one of the young Oilers to improve an area of need.

Chiarelli responded by saying getting players in the NHL today was extremely difficult and only going to get harder in the future. So while he might be willing to trade it would be very difficult to get what he felt was needed.

This from a GM sitting on a bunch of top young players that you would think would return whatever he wanted.

So while Murray may say publically he wants to add a player of two or even move a player or two, that shouldn't be interpreted by anyone as a done deal.

It obviously follows, if you can't obtain what you want you continue on the path you're on.

 

[Stylizer1]

Bob Mackenzie interviewed Peter Chiarelli recently for TSN.

It covers the Oilers obviously, however Bob asked Peter if he would be willing to trade one of the young Oilers to improve an area of need.

Chiarelli responded by saying getting players in the NHL today was extremely difficult and only going to get harder in the future. So while he might be willing to trade it would be very difficult to get what he felt was needed.

This from a GM sitting on a bunch of top young players that you would think would return whatever he wanted.

So while Murray may say publically he wants to add a player of two or even move a player or two, that shouldn't be interpreted by anyone as a done deal.

It obviously follows, if you can't obtain what you want you continue on the path you're on.

Edmonton is in a different situation than Ottawa was. Ottawa had cap space, Edmonton now not so much. Ottawa has young players on very easy to move contracts, Edmonton doesn't. I could be wrong but I think Mackenzie is referring to one of Edmonton's top young players as in Nuge, Hall, Eberle, Yak. They would have to clear some cap space to fill out their roster better. Most trades nowadays are equal in value unless you are trying to dump really good players for scraps ie, Kessel to Pitt. If they trade away a Draisitl, Nurse, or Reinhart that doesn't really help them bring quality talent unless of course it's another young player on a cheap contract. Also Ottawa is further ahead in development compared to Edmonton and is in a better position to take on high value contracts to improve themselves. Because Murray is working on an internal budget he can't make those deals and can only make a deal where he basically robs a team ie the Turris trade.

Looking at Murray's past deals to improve this team he has traded away picks, minor league players, and prospects for what he has gotten in return. Rarely does he trade away roster players. When he does it's for picks and prospects not established players. At some point Edmonton is going to have to decide how to balance the contract situations with their younger players. Unfortunately the previous management groups had no idea what they were doing and has left Edmonton in financial trouble because they gave to big of contracts too fast. McDavid is likely not the type of player you give a bridge contract too seeing as they gave their big 3 incredible raises out of their rookie contracts. If McDavid lives up to the hype his next contract should start at 8 million. I can't see going forward Edmonton making mistakes on contracts again but this is Edmonton we are talking about.

In order to land a top 6 forward or a top4 Dman you got to give up more than a prospect unless you are taking a salary dump.