What to do about the second line?

[TML1]

Not sure I understand the logic. Guys want the second line to score and yet they want to keep Winnik on it???

Winnik isn't a scorer. Want the line to score -- start by replacing him.

Could not agree more. Winnik is a Steckel type player with similar numbers. Why is he on the second line? It boggles my mind that so few get this.

 

[StringsAttached]

Not sure I understand the logic. Guys want the second line to score and yet they want to keep Winnik on it???

Winnik isn't a scorer. Want the line to score -- start by replacing him.

Winnik has been underrated this year. He's good defensively. He's great along the boards and he'll get the puck to Kadri/JVR who had chemistry in the preseason.

Not to mention he can fly too.

 

[TML1]

Winnik has been underrated this year. He's good defensively. He's great along the boards and he'll get the puck to Kadri/JVR who had chemistry in the preseason.

Not to mention he can fly too.

Can fly? If he can fly it sure isn't getting him anywhere. The guy averages 5 goals a year, has hands of stone. He's a 3 rd line player at best. First thing mentioned about Winnik is he's great defensively. So since when did the 2nd line in the NHL become a defence first line ? Chemistry in the preseason? Hello it's the preseason.

 

[ldnk]

Fake may be colourful usage to illustrate, it was not a true season where you could trust a lot of performances, Frattin is just one example of that year where players that looked good never looked as good since.

It was a fake season in the sense that players were not coming in on a level playing field. Some guys were playing in the AHL (Frattin), others played in Europe, and a whole bunch sat at home on the couch and just played shinny hockey to stay in shape. It's also funny to me that the 25 games that Frattin played in that season get used as this indicator of how good he is meanwhile we have 103 other games that suggest that he has no business being in the top 6.

I also really don't understand why it is always Kadri that needs a message sent to him. Sure, his play has not been the greatest at this point, but maybe we should look at Lupul's awful play and maybe question why Winnik continues to stay in the top 6. Winnik has no business playing outside of the bottom 6. As much as I did not like Clarkson in the top 6 last year, his play is better this year. He's still not 5 million dollar player better but I would much rather see him on that line.

Even a guy like Komarov drives the net a little more than Winnik and Komarov actually skates with his head up which is crucial to playing on a line with a guy with the kind of on-ice vision like Kadri. Kadri can make those little slip plays that bottom 6 players usually can't handle because they can't coordinate their stick, their eyes, and their position on the ice.

I really don't think that Carlyle does much thinking in terms of trying to complement his lineup. Kadri keeps getting a defensive player with offensive anchor properties because his line is questionable defensively, meanwhile we march JVR-Bozak-Kessel out year after year who spend 90% of the game in their own zone for that opportunity to score goals. And it's really good when they do it so some games it's a good approach, but in games like the Bruins, you need a different style and Bozak doesn't complement it.

The current 3rd line is good in the sense that they have done a nice job cycling the puck but in general they really aren't great at turning that cycle into scoring chances because there isn't a de facto finisher on the line. It's three guys who work hard but none of them really have that ability to take control of a play and create the offensive opportunity. Santorelli has some offensive skill but he really just doesn't strike me as a guy who can thread passes or has a shot good enough to take a somewhat low percentage scoring chance and make it dangerous. Clarkson's shot just isn't good at all. He does a lot of those waffle shots that go right into the goaltender and his ability to handle passes on the rush is questionable. I do like his effort. Komarov is probably the biggest question mark on that 3rd line because he has actually made some really nice passes but holy heck is his shot ever weak.

The 4th line...well, it would be nice if we actually played one. I don't hate the strategy that Carlyle was using with inserting a top 9 winger on to the line but he was just doing it at random. It wasn't a way to give players who were playing well more ice-time, he was just rotating a guy on to the line game-by-game. Against Boston it was Lupul getting extra shifts. In the Islanders game Kessel was getting extra ice-time. If they are legitimately going to give the line 10 minutes of ice-time I would really like to see Frattin and Ashton subbed in and out and see if someone produces. While Panik isn't likely to score many goals, he was at least a 2nd round draft pick. In no way am I going to say that he is exactly the same player but in some ways he reminds me of Jiri Tlusty as a Czech player who came to the OHL to develop, puts up decent offensive numbers but doesn't produce 1st liner production with limited offensive opportunity so gets dumped.

I wouldn't mind an experiment to really shake things up for the team:

Kessel - Kadri - Komarov
JVR - Santorelli - Lupul
Clarkson - Bozak - Winnik
Panik - Holland - Ashton/Frattin

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

Kadri doesn't have the physique and conditioning to be utilized as an effective physical/agitating player. Hence, why he takes so many penalties to make up for his lack of strength.

That sure explains why he draws many more penalties than he takes.

 

[ldnk]

Can fly? If he can fly it sure isn't getting him anywhere. The guy averages 5 goals a year, has hands of stone. He's a 3 rd line player at best. First thing mentioned about Winnik is he's great defensively. So since when did the 2nd line in the NHL become a defence first line ? Chemistry in the preseason? Hello it's the preseason.

I don't know where the notion that he gets the puck to anyone has come into play. Winnik plays with his head down and he doesn't watch the play develop. That's crucial to a guy who will find players. Winnik is great being used in a 3rd/4th line role and getting premium PK time. That's what he should be used as, not on the 2nd line.

 

[613Leafer]

I would try:

Lupul-Kadri-Holland

Most centres can transition to the wing pretty easily and it happens quite regularly around the league. Holland hasnt been given a fair chance to actually demonstrate his offence at the NHL level. He's getting the Colborne treatment, who is now looking like a half-decent player.

So instead of almost exclusively playing Holland in a 4th line role for 6 minutes a night where he gets 1-2 shifts a period, no offensive minutes, limited offensive linemates, etc. Followed by trading him for peanuts. Lets put him in a position where he actually has a chance to succeed!

He has size, which our top 6 could use. Tell him to play a hard forechecking game. What's the worst that can happen? The second line will stlill not produce? At worst, nothing negative relative to right now happens, but it has the chance to have a lot of upside. He's a guy with size/skill who might actually be able to become a 40+ point NHLer if given the chance.

 

[Al14]

Didn't Frattin have some success with Lupul and Kadri once upon a time?

 

[cookie]

Lol! Ummmm... Outside the box is right. You're seriously proposing burying Kessel on a line with Santorelli and Panik? Absurd... Also, not sure why you'd want to change the third line. Komarov, Santorelli, & Clarkson have been great together. I'm just wondering why Carlyle hasn't tried switching JVR and Lupul. Lupul with Bozak & Kessel was just as effective as JVR and hopefully he could find some chemistry with Kadri to get him going. You say they're driving possession? Not sure of their advanced stats (nor do I care) what I see from watching the games intently with my eyes is a line that's ineffective in the offensive zone. Both Kadri & Lupul tend to go full lone ranger and don't look to play off eachother at all

The beauty of lineups is the kind of free reign you're given to put people together. Panik and Santorelli would be great complements to Kessel IMHO. Panik is a skilled grinding big body similar to Kulemin and Santorelli will carry out Bozak's role. Other thing to note would be the total line speed... not just top speed but also acceleration. Panik and Santorelli have shown to have a board presence and as players they might just be good enough replacements to Kessel's regular linemates.

It kind of irks me that Komarov, who is essentially like a super-charged battery, is being wasted on the third line. I mean sure, the line is driving play but what would happen if he's accompanied by better players? Wouldn't that line drive play but also contribute more to the team?

JVR and Lupul would be great complements to Kadri. Winnik is a good player but not one that screams 'offensive terror'. Both Lupes and JVR can finish and Kadri will be able to distribute the puck to them. Because they're driving possession it means they're getting shots near to the net or on goal. Having someone like JVR should help change the dynamics of the line as he's good along the boards and in front of the net, unlike Winnik.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

What's wrong with the second line? They're driving possession and getting chances for the most part.

what a world we live in

 

[Porn*]

Lupul - Kadri - Frattin / Leivo / Booth (when healthy)

Winnik should be on the 4th line since our 3rd is clicking.

 

[PanniniClaus]

what a world we live in

I think you can get away with a Winnik on that line in short bursts but over the long haul, Winnik's deficiencies will show up on the offensive side. If we were scoring more elsewhere that might be perfectly acceptable. He offers a physical grinding winger and Lupul/Kadri theoretically get enough done without another creative or "hands" player.

Winnik is a perfect 4th liner and can spot in further up.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

we're in trouble if we're hoping booth is going to be the savior.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Winnik shouldn't play another game on the 2nd line,period!.
Lines should look like this...
JVR-Bozak-kessel
Lupul-Kadri-Booth
Komorov- satorelli-Clarkson
Winnk-holland-Panik

I would rather bump Jvr down to line 2, move Lupul up to line one and call up leivo to replace Booth on line two. Booth just isn't second line material.

 

[4evaBlue]

JvR - Kadri - Santorelli

Seeing this got me thinking. The 3rd line's great and all, and the addition of Winnik could make that line truly dominant.

My second thought was: What does Santorelli bring to the 3rd line atm? When I think back of some of the great shifts of that line, I don't remember ever thinking: "Man, that was an awesome shift by Santa.", whereas the other two have definitely had their moments. I think I like to see your suggested combo just to see what Santa really has. Since that line has the microscope on them...

Still think Kadri should slide to the wing, though, regardless of who ends up centering the line. Heck, if we want to go nuts, this combo may have some merit, too:

Lupul - Santa - Kessel
JVR - Bozak - Kadri
Clarkson - Winnik - Komarov
pylon - pylon - pylon (or they may as well be w/ the icetime they're getting)

 

[The_Chosen_One]

The beauty of lineups is the kind of free reign you're given to put people together. Panik and Santorelli would be great complements to Kessel IMHO. Panik is a skilled grinding big body similar to Kulemin and Santorelli will carry out Bozak's role. Other thing to note would be the total line speed... not just top speed but also acceleration. Panik and Santorelli have shown to have a board presence and as players they might just be good enough replacements to Kessel's regular linemates.

It kind of irks me that Komarov, who is essentially like a super-charged battery, is being wasted on the third line. I mean sure, the line is driving play but what would happen if he's accompanied by better players? Wouldn't that line drive play but also contribute more to the team?

JVR and Lupul would be great complements to Kadri. Winnik is a good player but not one that screams 'offensive terror'. Both Lupes and JVR can finish and Kadri will be able to distribute the puck to them. Because they're driving possession it means they're getting shots near to the net or on goal. Having someone like JVR should help change the dynamics of the line as he's good along the boards and in front of the net, unlike Winnik.

I could see Panik working well seeing that his game is more of a top six one. He is physical and could help drive possession. I am not sure if Santa is a superior alternative to Bozak seeing that he's also more of a face-off specialist with some playmaking ability. Holland would be interesting to try, though seeing that's he's a big, shoot-first centre.

As for Kadri, I think he needs to be given the opportunity to play with JVR. Lupul can act as the third linemate giving us a legitimate top line that can actually cycle the puck in the offensive zone.

Say...

JVR - Kadri - Lupul

Panik - Bozak - Kessel

Komarov - Santa - Clarkson

Winnik - Holland - X

 

[TribalPhoenix]

Personally, I'd put Winnik down to 4th line and give Frattin a shot on the 2nd line for a couple of games until Booth is ready. Give Booth a couple of games in the bottom 6 to get his feet back, and then try him in a top 6 role.

Ultimately, we have some options that can unfold. If they don't pan out and we continue as is, the season is lost and we can realign for the trade deadline.

Personally, I see Carlyle being gone in the next month or so, so I think that question being answered will dictate the prospects of actual change in strategy, not just line combos.

 

[Durrr]

Blame the players all you want, but how the hell are we not seeing juggled lines at this point? The top 6 isn't clicking, isn't it about time we see some Lupul/Kessel, Kadri/Kessel or JVR/Kadri? What the hell is the coach thinking trying the exact same lines every night, when they haven't been working for a majority of the season so far.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Kadri Eichel Nylander
JVR Bozak Kessel (all deserve a demotion)

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

we're in trouble if we're hoping booth is going to be the savior.

We are in trouble.

 

[TheVision]

Only thing that has worked in the past (only briefly mind you) to get Kadri going is tough love. SO, maybe Peter Holland should be given a few games with Lupul on the second line, move Kadri down to the 4th; or better still watch a few games from the box.

 

[Purity*]

Blame the players all you want, but how the hell are we not seeing juggled lines at this point? The top 6 isn't clicking, isn't it about time we see some Lupul/Kessel, Kadri/Kessel or JVR/Kadri? What the hell is the coach thinking trying the exact same lines every night, when they haven't been working for a majority of the season so far.

Because it's Randy Carlyle, another one of the many flaws he has as coach.

He rode the Phaneuf-Franson PP pairing almost right until the end last season. He left it together until like game 7 of our losing streak. Before that, they were doing diddly squat on the PP for like 3 months running while giving up ridiculous amounts of SH chances because they suck at skating. This guy just refuses to shake things up when they really need shaking up. He also refused to take Orr/McLaren out of the lineup and he still never uses his 4th line.

 

[Durrr]

Only thing that has worked in the past (only briefly mind you) to get Kadri going is tough love. SO, maybe Peter Holland should be given a few games with Lupul on the second line, move Kadri down to the 4th; or better still watch a few games from the box.

Yep, even though hes one of our leading possession players, and is usually the best player on his line, he should be in the press box. Maybe the coach should do his job and adjust the lines to put all players in a good position to succeed. AKA break up the first and second lines that are clearly not working. Winnik is not an offensive player, yet once again we find a player like him on the second line. Id say go for JVR-Kadri-Komarov Lupu-Bozak-Kessel, or Kessel-Kadri-Komarov, Lupul-Bozak-JVR

 

[highslot]

put komorov on second line wing. third line would be winnik-santorelli-clarkson

komorov will add more grit, go into the corners and can pass from there. he's more defensively responsible than either, but he's no shut down forward.

 

[TheVision]

Yep, even though hes one of our leading possession players, and is usually the best player on his line, he should be in the press box. Maybe the coach should do his job and adjust the lines to put all players in a good position to succeed. AKA break up the first and second lines that are clearly not working. Winnik is not an offensive player, yet once again we find a player like him on the second line. Id say go for JVR-Kadri-Komarov Lupu-Bozak-Kessel, or Kessel-Kadri-Komarov, Lupul-Bozak-JVR

He hasn't been even remotely the best player on his line; more excuses for the little prince. He's played like garbage pretty much every game. Sitting for a game or 2 may work wonders for him and light a fire under him. But of course, he's the best player we've got, so let's just leave him be and watch him flounder for another month or so.

It's called discipline, and so far, I've seen very little of that on display from anyone in the Blue and White; especially our little savior #43.