What kind of a team are the Jackets really?

EspenK

Registered User
Sep 25, 2011
15,619
4,186
Since the end of the streak the Jackets have been less than a .500 team. While you can't ignore the streak because it did happen, suppose they went 8-8 during that period. A quick look at the standings show them fighting for a wild card spot on the one hand and not that far removed from a top 5 or 6 draft choice on the other.

Are they the team that stunned the league through December or are they as bad as they have been since? Remember the 15-1-1 finish followed by a disastrous following season. Deja vu?

:popcorn:
 

VoluntaryDom

Formerly DominicBoltsFan / Ⓐ / ✞
Oct 31, 2016
23,285
5,532
Tampa FL
The Jackets are an average, borderline-playoff squad who had a hot streak led by unsustainable power-play numbers and Atkinson heating up. Wennberg excites me as a #1C, and the likes of Saad, Atkinson, Foligno and Jenner are also top-line guys, combined with an above average defense, gives them hope to improve. Especially when Carlsson, PLD make the NHL.
 

JacketsDavid

Registered User
Jan 11, 2013
2,646
888
Mediocure team overall (meaning right at/below the playoff line) - average to me would be a team that is usually a playoff team with more than half the teams qualifying each year. They have the ability to have some incredible hot streaks, which is somewhat due to goaltending (when Bob is on he is one of the best) and streaky forwards.
The defense was much better earlier this year but Savard getting hurt and Wereneski wearing down makes them pretty average right now.
 

Valdiz

Registered User
Apr 4, 2015
76
0
Moscow
Boy, you sure are a funny kid, Johnny, but I like you!
So tell me, What kind of a boy are you, John?
*Ahem* Tulip, you forgot to relog :)

One of my favorite websites is jacketscannon, cause, you know, good CBJ&monsters coverage. But one thing that bugged me for a while (especially during the streak) was how they made fun of Ryan Lambert (you know him, right?). Only, the dude had/has a point - CBJ for this season was/is a team with unsastainable PP and PDO numbers.

Gagner who?
 

SuperGenius

For Duty & Humanity!
Mar 18, 2008
4,639
200
I never really understand analysis that disregards the good, but not the bad.

You can't apply the low points to the entire season any more than you can apply the high points to the entire season. There are ebbs and flows. They're never as good as when things are going well and never as bad as when things are going poorly. This is how it works for every team in every sport over a long season.

Fans apply this to players all of the time as well and it drives me nuts. Every player has stretches where they struggle or don't score that balance out the stretches where they are on fire. The best players minimize this, but every.single.one. of them goes through it, yet we want to trade them away whenever struggles occur or sign them long term when they're hot...it's just nonsensical.

The "unsustainable" argument is equally nonsense, IMO. Literally everything is unsustainable for long periods. Consistency certainly is more easily sustainable, but do people really think that most teams are consistent? Few teams have power play or penalty kill percentages that don't fluctuate, sometimes wildly, over the course of a season. Certainly the CBJ could be more consistent and that would be better for them and us, but the only consistent thing about youth is inconsistency. Of course no one thought they'd keep up with their levels of November and December and go 73-5-4 by the end of the season..., but why is it so easy to believe they'll maintain the lower numbers? Same guys. They could just as easily get hot again as we go through this roller coaster with them.

They are no more "below average" than they are the top team in the league. Probably a solid 3/4 in the Metro - which is right where they are.
 

db2011

Registered User
Oct 10, 2011
3,565
474
Brooklyn
A young one. The optimist in me says that THIS is the adversity that was missing in the first part of the season, and this is what the team needs to address and play through. And the timing is right for it- after a very solid start to the season that helped them get into a good position. I'm also still thinking the second half of the season is when Boone and Dubi will re-assert themselves. That seems to be happening a bit, especially with Dubi. Needs to happen more though, and some guys who have gone cold need to heat up again.

The question is, will they start clicking again in the last 1/3 of the season and get back to being a dangerous team as they hopefully get ready for a first round playoff series?
 

Cyclones Rock

Registered User
Jun 12, 2008
10,591
6,505
Wildly inconsistent.

This core group has produced at 15-1-1 finish two years ago, an 0-8 start last season and this season's 16 game winning streak. When this unit clicks, they are capable of top end performance backed by an NHL top 5 goalie.

A young defense and the lack of a top end scorer or two is probably the root cause of the inconsistency.

Having a team which can run off two winning streaks like this one has in the past 3 seasons is a huge plus. It shows that this team has the potential to make a big playoff run. It also has the potential to get swept in round 1.

It's a high class problem. Just ask an Arizona or Colorado fan.
 

MAHJ71

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Dec 6, 2014
11,724
4,019
NWA 217
I never really understand analysis that disregards the good, but not the bad.

You can't apply the low points to the entire season any more than you can apply the high points to the entire season. There are ebbs and flows. They're never as good as when things are going well and never as bad as when things are going poorly. This is how it works for every team in every sport over a long season.

Fans apply this to players all of the time as well and it drives me nuts. Every player has stretches where they struggle or don't score that balance out the stretches where they are on fire. The best players minimize this, but every.single.one. of them goes through it, yet we want to trade them away whenever struggles occur or sign them long term when they're hot...it's just nonsensical.

The "unsustainable" argument is equally nonsense, IMO. Literally everything is unsustainable for long periods. Consistency certainly is more easily sustainable, but do people really think that most teams are consistent? Few teams have power play or penalty kill percentages that don't fluctuate, sometimes wildly, over the course of a season. Certainly the CBJ could be more consistent and that would be better for them and us, but the only consistent thing about youth is inconsistency. Of course no one thought they'd keep up with their levels of November and December and go 73-5-4 by the end of the season..., but why is it so easy to believe they'll maintain the lower numbers? Same guys. They could just as easily get hot again as we go through this roller coaster with them.

They are no more "below average" than they are the top team in the league. Probably a solid 3/4 in the Metro - which is right where they are.

Great effort at talking people off a ledge.. Ever considered being an FBI negotiator?? :D
 
Last edited:

Heinze 57

Registered User
Jan 3, 2009
540
12
Cincinnati, Oh
*Ahem* Tulip, you forgot to relog :)

One of my favorite websites is jacketscannon, cause, you know, good CBJ&monsters coverage. But one thing that bugged me for a while (especially during the streak) was how they made fun of Ryan Lambert (you know him, right?). Only, the dude had/has a point - CBJ for this season was/is a team with unsastainable PP and PDO numbers.

Gagner who?

My issue with Lambert wasn't that he was wrong because of course they weren't going to win every game for the rest of the season. Nobody was arguing that. My issue with Lambert was he refused to grant the team any credit and was a dick about it and he ignored all the reasons they were winning and focused his analysis too heavily on a single advanced analytic. Then, when comparing the Jackets to other teams, teams we'd beaten already, he'd give them the benefit of the doubt that wasn't extended to us.
 

Speedy Sanderson

Registered User
Jan 29, 2012
1,567
619
As I said in a post in a different thread, I see the Jackets as a wildcard team (hopefully the first wildcard and not the second). They have a solid starting goaltender, some good puck-moving d-men, and a decent forward group. The Jackets lack a capable backup goaltender, blue-line depth, and elite scorers (Atkinson is becoming one). The faceoff numbers are also troubling. Still, with the right matchups, the Jackets could be a tough out in the playoffs (I'm assuming they can pick up at least 23 or 24 points in their last 29 games to make it in).
 

Kev22

Registered User
Feb 19, 2003
4,089
0
Plain City, OH
Visit site
How they are playing right now might be indicative of what kind of team they are. I think they need an infusion of something, because they are not playing with the same pace or speed and seem more deliberate than they have all season. The streak is starting to look more fluky by the game.
 

EdwardG

Let's Dance!
Mar 17, 2009
1,089
170
Columbus
I'm not sure if they are:
(a) a team full of young players as well as vets who have been used to losing, thus are having trouble getting up against the lesser teams.
(b) a mediocre team who went on a hot streak.

I lean toward (a) and I'm hopeful they can play well enough to get in one of the higher seeds and then we'll see how it goes in the playoffs when they should have no trouble being motivated. Given the quality young players on the blue line and the pipeline, I'm excited for the team's future.
 

gocbj

Registered User
Aug 3, 2007
414
34
C9
talent

to me it is about talent. for bleep sakes, Chicago has 3 of the top 100 players ever.

we have to perform at about 115% effectiveness (natural talent vs. results) to beat a top 1/3 team. Pittsburgh, Washington, Chicago - - they can beat a top 1/3 team with about 90% effort.

Bottom line, teams with world-class players can play 90% and win 75% of their games games. P, W and C don't need emotion and grit and lucky bounces and effort and all the other BS to win. Our best 6 players are 2nd line / pairing B+ guys on PWC.

I could go on and on but at the end of the day, our best 6 do not come close to the best 6 of PWC in terms of talent - not necessarily points and performance. Natural God-given talent.

We have to perform at 110% + to beat a top 1/3 team. PWC can beat a top 1/3 team at 90% of their top performance. If we perform at 90%, games vs. the bottom 2/3 are a coin flip at best.
 
Last edited:

MoeBartoli

Checkers-to-Jackets
Jan 12, 2011
14,070
10,277
CR described us as "wildly inconsistent" which I think hot should it. In the end, I think we are are less than the streak team but better than the post streak team. A wild swing between excellence and average at best is seen in the last thirteen games where:
- our top line has only 8 goals (they're better than that)
- bottom 6 scoring disappearing with Gagner, Karlsson 0 goals; Anderson 1, Selak 2 (those numbers should improve)
- Saad with 2 goals! (He's better than that)
- No Savard (return?)
- Bob has been good but not Vezina level (that will improve with the above)

Overall we don't have a huge margin for error and are top level only when all four lines are a threat, our D Corp can field the right pairings and Bob is at peak level to cover our shortfalls. I see us to be a win-3/lose-2 team going forward until the playoffs.....and hoping we can streak in the playoffs.
 

Dr. Fire

What, me worry?
Jun 29, 2007
7,793
63
Jacketstown, Ohio
Well since you asked:

Like any team, the Blue Jackets are beholden to shooting and goaltending success, and they don’t have a sound enough process (like, say, the Kings of the past few years) to both suffer from a low PDO and ensure long-term success. The underlying numbers say they should be a slightly above-average team, the standings say they’re elite. The underlying numbers always win out over a long enough timeline.

You can summarize the issues this way: Over this putrid 17-game stretch, in which Columbus has just four regulation wins and were just shut out at home by Vancouver, they’ve been a lot better than their record. In the previous 36 games, they were a lot worse. These things even out, though they probably shouldn’t to this extent.

Wins are wins, but long-term you are who the numbers say you are. Columbus is a perfectly alright team but it didn’t take a psychic to see trouble was on the horizon. Their air of invincibility is gone. Maybe teams will stop giving them their “A†game every night now. Maybe they’ll start posting PDOs in the 103 range. Maybe the winning hockey will start up again as a result.

But probably not.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/h...to-earth-trending-topics-extra-211549921.html

Now, what do I think?

I think they are a better team then most of us thought they would be, but not in the same strata as the Pens, Caps, etc. They are back to being the team we thought they would be pre 2015-2016 season. A team that would be in the play-off hunt, and whether they made it or not would depend on Bob, adequate scoring, and some puck luck. Their improved D has helped, and Savards return will help some.
 

CBJWerenski8

Formerly CBJWennberg10 (RIP Kivi)
Jun 13, 2009
42,340
24,267
The Jackets are an average, borderline-playoff squad who had a hot streak led by unsustainable power-play numbers and Atkinson heating up. Wennberg excites me as a #1C, and the likes of Saad, Atkinson, Foligno and Jenner are also top-line guys, combined with an above average defense, gives them hope to improve. Especially when Carlsson, PLD make the NHL.

Mediocure team overall (meaning right at/below the playoff line) - average to me would be a team that is usually a playoff team with more than half the teams qualifying each year. They have the ability to have some incredible hot streaks, which is somewhat due to goaltending (when Bob is on he is one of the best) and streaky forwards.
The defense was much better earlier this year but Savard getting hurt and Wereneski wearing down makes them pretty average right now.

This is close to how I feel.

I try my hardest, during the good and the bad, to maintain an even keel. Not to be too excited or down. Last year I was a fool and thought we would rebound and still make the playoffs after a 0-5-0 start, and I got burned hard. I'm not making that mistake again. I said during this losing skid that they are an average team with an excellent streak. I still maintain that opinion.

This team was left for dead when the season started, even by their own fans. This was similar to the 2014 post lockout Blue Jackets where we were supposed to finish last by a mile, but we came one point from the playoffs. This team is better than that team, probably substantially better, but that team played more consistent and as a team than this one does. The team aspect is also what made us make it 2 years ago against Pittsburgh.

Anyway, back to my original point of them being left for dead, they were influenced and eager to prove they didn't suck. That last year was just a fluke of horrible luck, and a bunch of horrible seasons for individuals colliding together. Prior to the streak the CBJ started out pretty good, around the playoff bubble IIRC, while managing to string together strong wins and play well. However, teams were clearly looking by them, and the CBJ treated every game like a playoff game in the desperation factor. Not that they played like it was a playoff game, but just the desperation the playoffs provide. We jumped on some teams, noteworthy being Montreal and STL with tons of goals, and we started feeling ourselves and playing as a team. They were in the thick of the race when nobody thought they would be, and honestly the talent level on the team says they shouldn't be (Still to this day.)

Then obviously the streak happened. They treated those games like playoff games, with intensity and level of play. They got bailed out by Bob and McElhinney numerous times during the streak, but they still played a team game. Now I am going to steal an Aaron Portzline line here, and they became the hunted instead of hunters. Columbus had no business beating Montreal or Boston in late December/early January (I forget) of that win streak. They got dominated in both games. Cracks were beginning to show.

The first shock to them was the absolute domination by Washington to end their streak. I feel like this hurt their psyche a little bit, and the cracks were starting to really show, but they were fine. However, the next game is where the cracks really become noticeable.

I am a big believer in confidence. As a team, and as an individual. I feel the entire teams confidence was taken away from them in ONE PERIOD in GAME ONE last year. When we played the Rangers and had them on the ropes in game 1, after Saad scored to give us the lead late in the 3rd. You know how this story ends. We lose that game, and then get blasted the very next night against the same team. The season was over from that point forward. The teams mental stability was very fragile.

Anyway, to this year. We played the Rangers (funny right?) and we were playing our game. We were playing like our old selves during the streak. Post streak problems? Nah, not a chance. We were playing excellent hockey.....and then Curtis McElhinney turns into Curtis McElhinney and we blow that game in the 3rd. The team was playing tight as hell, nervous, and just choked that game away. It reminded me of last years team, except in one period rather than all 3. I haven't seen our game return completely since that game. I am worried since this team retains most of that same team last year that our mental stability is fragile still, and this is going to be the turning point of the season, as last years choke job against the NYR was.

Long story short, I don't believe in this team. I trust Jones. I trust Foligno, Dubinsky, Jenner, and Atkinson to at minimum provide effort and energy. I trust Bob to make some big saves, but I also concede he can be very streaky. That's about it, as far as positives. Werenski and Wennberg's games have fallen off cliffs, which is to be expected by young players, but still who are they? Saad is inconsistent as hell, is he a trustworthy top line guy? JJ isn't the same without Savard. Nuti is a rookie and plays like one. Harrington and Murray aren't special. Gagner has turned back into the player he's been during the last few years of his career.

I still THINK we will make the playoffs off that win streak, however, I don't think it will be a pretty end.

I never really understand analysis that disregards the good, but not the bad.

You can't apply the low points to the entire season any more than you can apply the high points to the entire season. There are ebbs and flows. They're never as good as when things are going well and never as bad as when things are going poorly. This is how it works for every team in every sport over a long season.

Fans apply this to players all of the time as well and it drives me nuts. Every player has stretches where they struggle or don't score that balance out the stretches where they are on fire. The best players minimize this, but every.single.one. of them goes through it, yet we want to trade them away whenever struggles occur or sign them long term when they're hot...it's just nonsensical.

The "unsustainable" argument is equally nonsense, IMO. Literally everything is unsustainable for long periods. Consistency certainly is more easily sustainable, but do people really think that most teams are consistent? Few teams have power play or penalty kill percentages that don't fluctuate, sometimes wildly, over the course of a season. Certainly the CBJ could be more consistent and that would be better for them and us, but the only consistent thing about youth is inconsistency. Of course no one thought they'd keep up with their levels of November and December and go 73-5-4 by the end of the season..., but why is it so easy to believe they'll maintain the lower numbers? Same guys. They could just as easily get hot again as we go through this roller coaster with them.

They are no more "below average" than they are the top team in the league. Probably a solid 3/4 in the Metro - which is right where they are.

I hope you're right. But I just don't see it that way. I see them as more of a 5-6 in the metro based on talent (the only team I can absolutely 100% say we're better than is New Jersey. Philly is close, but NJ is the only for sure.) rather than top 4.

Maybe I'm just a glass half empty person. :laugh:
 

major major

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
14,598
1,669
I'll tell you all in a month. :laugh:

Mediocure team overall (meaning right at/below the playoff line) - average to me would be a team that is usually a playoff team with more than half the teams qualifying each year.

I'm skeptical about this line of reasoning. Teams aren't static like that. Some are up and coming - you might say the Jackets are in this camp with a very young core. Others are on the way down. The Wings are worse than the Jackets but have made the playoffs every year - are they then an above average team in your book?
 

Valdiz

Registered User
Apr 4, 2015
76
0
Moscow
I'll tell you all in a month. :laugh:
I'm skeptical about this line of reasoning. Teams aren't static like that. Some are up and coming - you might say the Jackets are in this camp with a very young core. Others are on the way down. The Wings are worse than the Jackets but have made the playoffs every year - are they then an above average team in your book?
I wholeheartedly agree that teams aren't static. As mentioned by posters above, we must consider all the highs and lows of the season - and that is the biggest concern: this team has been hot for a stretch before, but in the long run, none of these stretches were indicative that CBJ can maintain great level of play for long. And when we analyze those stretches, we can see why they are happening, for example this season - red-hot PP and addition of young core (also, puck luck in many cases).
On the other hand, when low, it seems that they just quit and don't care. I mean, the fact that i watch them in the night because of the time differnence and go to bed devastated (see NJ and Canucks) is on me - it's my choice. But the sold out home ice and they lose to NJ like THAT? Come on.
Even Torts says that he can't figure out what happened to them. And that's my concern - what is the reason behind thise humiliating defeats? Is there really an attitude problem, or are that just physically/mentally tired at this point in season?

I reaaally hope that this is just some twisted plan to go down in the standings to get an easier opposition in the playoffs.
P.s. Lately, Rangers seem to be CBJ-spirit-breakers, I hope it's just a coincidence.
 
Last edited:

JacketsDavid

Registered User
Jan 11, 2013
2,646
888
I'm skeptical about this line of reasoning. Teams aren't static like that. Some are up and coming - you might say the Jackets are in this camp with a very young core. Others are on the way down. The Wings are worse than the Jackets but have made the playoffs every year - are they then an above average team in your book?

Guess you would say Detroit is a good team (historically) that is declining.

The Jackets are a crappy team (historically) that is rising?

But the question is what are they right now - and I do think the CBJ will make the playoffs this year, but not sure if you can look at them vs the competition and say they will be better next season? Too many streaky players (power play, Gagner are top of mind), Werenski probably isn't the 2nd coming that he looked like to start the season (sorry he's going to be a very good player, but I don't think his start to the season was a floor for his future). It's also very apparent that our past demons (lack of effort) have not been rid of.

Bottom line we aren't the worst team in the league any more (past few seasons over all) and we aren't the best team (like the first half of the season). We're in an incredibly tough division and not sure if we can expect regression from Pittsburgh or Washington unless something happens to their elite players. You can probably look at the Rangers as a team we can compete with for 3rd.
 

major major

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
14,598
1,669
I'm not answering the OP question, just responding to a couple things:

It might be telling that we're sitting here wondering about what the optimal playoff seed should be ("Should they finish 2nd 3rd or 4th in the Metro?"), and then wondering why the players seem to be not giving their all in 2017. It's not intentional but almost every game matters more to the other team. I think the young squad needs to stop looking for emotion and learn how to be professionals. I think most teams look for emotion, but the great teams that avoided ever having a losing streak didn't succeed on the basis of always finding emotion for every game.

The team scoring in 2017 is not bad. Looks to be an above average number of goals, close to 3 per game. For all the talk about slumping scorers, I don't think that's cost the team too many wins, unless you were expecting 5-4 or 6-4 wins. The goals against on the other hand is up massively, especially since Savard's been out.

I do think a lot of responsibility for the drop in play is on our wingers. The strongest part of the team is the forecheck and backcheck by the heavy skilled wingers. When they out work teams it opens up so much space for others - gaps for skilled plays, the D can stand up or pinch, etc. .. They end up with most of the play in the offensive zone, which is the best way to play D. But that's distinct from any issue with goal scoring, per se.
 

Forepar

Registered User
Nov 6, 2011
1,232
702
South-Central Ohio
Jackets season in 4 stages:

0-2-0 OMG, SOJ!

11-3-4 Hey, they've rebounded, they are in the hunt. Are they for real?...when actually, they had so many games in hand that they were nicely above the PO bar at that point, just the actual points just showed them right at the bar.

16-0 OMG, we are the best team in the league...going to win President's Cup, can't wait for home ice in playoffs. How dare anyone criticize the basis of our success.

7-9-1 OMG, SOJ.


I have no idea when the current lull breaks, but it will. Probably not going to get 2nd spot in Metro, and 1st spot in Metro is getting out of reach. If you had said before season started, or even after the 11-3-4 stretch that CBJ would be fighting for 3/4 spot in Metro, with 100+ points likely, with the 4 spot being the #1 WC, most of us would have jumped for joy x3.

The fact that they went 27-3-3 was quite a feat, maybe even moreso than the the 16-game streak, as far as showing us what they COULD be. I recall thinking that at 11-5-4, with the first 2 games looking like 2015-16, that if they could somehow keep at 11-5-4 pace that would be 104 points. Guess what...they are 23-9-1 since then, which includes the current 7-9-1 skid.

They are not the most talented team in the NHL, not in top 3.
They are not the best team in the NHL, currently top 4 in points, probably top 8/10 all things considered, better than that when 72 is hot, but in a confidence/effort spin.
They are a bit too fragile - I had the same feeling CR did when CBJ blew the Ranger game in early January, cold sweat flashback to game 1 of 2015-16 season.

But this team can and has ramped it up against better opponents, even during this recent skid. Prior CBJ teams could not do that. They are not the CBJ of old, the are the CBJ of YOUNG (as in too young to not get caught up in the emotional stuff, the highs of playing PIT and NYR, the lows of playing VAN to less than a full house). I am not predicting a complete turnaround, but if they go 6-4 or 6-3-1 every ten games here out, they would be considered a solid team (even without the streak). They are still learning how to do that, even though their season record overall is above that pace. Going 4-3 every 7 games in PO wins series, even Cups. Going 1-4, followed by 6-0 means you lost the first round and won the first 6 preseason games the following year.

I almost think Torts likes the mystery of games like Sat v NJD and Thurs vs VAN - it puts his YOUNG team in adversity and he believes he can coach them out of it. If they had continued hot, he was worried how would they react to be being down 1-2 or even 1-3 in a PO series...he is getting a chance to find out early, and the kids are learning. It may be that the learning is NOT about this year's PO, but next season and next season's PO. They may not make it all the way back to solid this year, but they likely will still get in the PO, and there is so much positive and so much learning going on ... hard to comprehend that at times. I get as ****** off as EDM or even MFRONE at some of the play recently. The two Murray plays on Thurs almost had me in the ER, and had me forgetting the progress he's been showing for a while. But overall, what a great spot they are in... whether that means a PO run this year or a quick exit that creates even more fire for next year...and as they get older, they won't need as much of that fire, just consistent professionalism.

Ramblings from an old guy (sorry OG), just trying to enjoy the ride without getting too frustrated...some of this ramble is to myself, as I have started to become unglued at times the past few games. Gave myself a talking too after Thursday's game to relax a little. I don't think they will completely choke their wonderful start away, but I understand the angst many have (me included). My optimism is that they had that 11-3-3 stretch right before the 16-0 stretch. 33 games is more than just a hot streak. This 7-9-1 spin is the same number of games as that 11-3-3 stretch - The are somewhere between those two (18-12-4 would be mathematically precise), which is the equivalent to 96-97 points. That is a slightly above-average team, with so much youth and potential for the future. This wasn't supposed to be THE year; I hope it still is, but don't expect it...but future looks so much better than before.
 
Last edited:

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad