What does Draisaitl need to go down as the greatest ever number 2?

[Staniowski]

Let's be clear here, statistically, Drai has very good arguments for being the clear #2 offensive player/forward in the league since 18/19.

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The clear #2 in points, #2 in PPG, #1 in goals, #2 in GPG, and a ridiculous playoff PPG.

By usual HF measures, he would be the consensus #2 rated offensive forward if only due to his rivals having missed significant time in the regular season.

But he also has a significantly high amount of point shares with McDavid, whose stature as a Top 5/10 offensive talent all-time seems to be entrenched at this point.

I don't think we can evaluate him in a vacuum like we can for players like Malkin and Mikita, and even Esposito.

I think there is more Kurri in him then there is Jagr. But a Conn Smythe winning playoff where he outscores McDavid, or even multiple playoff runs where he outscores McDavid, can temper this.

Yes, Draisaitl has a high amount of point shares with McDavid, because he plays a lot with McDavid. There's not much you can do about that. It's the same for other great players....Bossy/Trottier, etc.

Draisaitl is an all-time great, both as a goal-scorer and a playmaker.

In the playoffs, he's outscored McDavid. Not including the play-in against the weak Chicago team, Draisaitl has 64 points in 39 games; McDavid has 56 points in the same 39 games. I think the gap between them narrows against strong opposition.

 

[daver]

Yes, Draisaitl has a high amount of point shares with McDavid, because he plays a lot with McDavid. There's not much you can do about that. It's the same for other great players....Bossy/Trottier, etc.

Draisaitl is an all-time great, both as a goal-scorer and a playmaker.

In the playoffs, he's outscored McDavid. Not including the play-in against the weak Chicago team, Draisaitl has 64 points in 39 games; McDavid has 56 points in the same 39 games. I think the gap between them narrows against strong opposition.

I agree that his playoff resume can answer a few questions about his regular season resume. Not sure I see him as being the clear #2 of the McDavid era but perhaps will be the highest rated of the current #2 in the league candidates. Him vs. Mac and Kucherov, right now, would be an interesting debate.

If he outplays McDavid in the playoffs, he certainly places himself in a unique position among the other #2 all-time players who would be behind their #1's (among forward duos anyways) in playoff rankings.

 

[Video Nasty]

Play similar to how he has for the past 5 years for another 5-10 years, while helping McDavid and the Oilers win multiple Cups, while also adding a Conn Smythe to his trophy cabinet.

I’m not a mindless sicko who needs to see McDavid go down for any significant amount of time to see the kind of talent Drai is.

One doesn’t fluke their way into being no worse than 4th in both goals and points for five consecutive seasons, while reaching a higher gear when the playoffs roll around.

He really didn't.

Sure, they had the same amount of points, but the scoring environments were very different.

Kucherov had 133% the points of 10th. Next closest Lightning were at 98 and 92 points.

Draisaitl had 125% the points of 10th. Next closest Oilers were at 153 and 104 points.

Not only was the scoring itself higher in 2023 than 2019 (slightly), but the help from teammates is a different world.

I think they're close enough that you could argue either ahead.

Worth noting that despite the difference in scoring environments, both squads scored the exact same number of goals (325) to lead the league.

And if we’re going to delve into teammates scoring, the Lightning had 12 different players score 30+ points. The Oilers had 7.

Ultimately, I agree it’s close either way.

 

[Video Nasty]

* Double post

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

….bump?

 

[Matsun]

Playoff PPG	GP	P	PPG
Wayne Gretzky	208	382	1,84
Leon Draisaitl	44	74	1,68
Mario Lemieux	107	172	1,61

Playoff GPG	GP	G	GPP
Mario Lemieux	107	76	0,71
Leon Draisaitl	44	29	0,66
Mike Bossy	129	85	0,66

Playoff APG	GP	A	APG
Wayne Gretzky	208	260	1,25
Leon Draisaitl	44	45	1,02
Connor McDavid	44	43	0,98

Small sample, but it's growing and getting more and more impressive. 18+29=47 in his last 23 Playoff games.

 

[daver]

I find it interesting that the Oilers try to separate Drai and McDavid in the regular season to get a more balanced Top 6 and some much needed scoring depth but inevitably pair the two up in the playoffs.

Is this to be expected? I get the sense that the last three great centre duos (Crosby/Malkin, Sakic/Forsberg, and Yzerman/Federov) played on separate lines

 

[MadLuke]

They do play particularly well together in a way I do not remember the other duo elevating each other that much

During the season GF% together: 57.14
Drai without Mcdavid: 47.73
McDavid without Drai: 51.95

Last playoff run the 2 together had a 71% GF percentage, Drai without McDavid 10%, McDavid without Drai 53%

 

[Michael Farkas]

Well, it's a playmaker center with incredible speed and hockey sense who can manipulate passing lanes and has super human vision with one of the best shooters going (release, catch-radius, one-timer, catch-and-release, low-angle, inside, outside all of it). It's a hell of a complementary duo. Perhaps an all-time combination...

 

[jigglysquishy]

I wonder how much it actually helps Edmonton though. 2 lines of dangerous + 2 lines not dangerous vs 1 line very dangerous + 3 lines not dangerous.

 

[JackSlater]

I find it interesting that the Oilers try to separate Drai and McDavid in the regular season to get a more balanced Top 6 and some much needed scoring depth but inevitably pair the two up in the playoffs.

Is this to be expected? I get the sense that the last three great centre duos (Crosby/Malkin, Sakic/Forsberg, and Yzerman/Federov) played on separate lines

It's somewhat weird, and I do think that Edmonton would be a better team if the two of them were almost always separate, even though there would be growing pains. Tough for coaches to resist the nuclear option when they are feeling heat though. Part of it would also be that those mentioned duos don't really work together as well as their talent might indicate, though maybe Sakic and Forsberg could have if Sakic was used as the designated shooter. Yzerman and Fedorov played together when Yzerman no longer had knees.

 

[daver]

Well, it's a playmaker center with incredible speed and hockey sense who can manipulate passing lanes and has super human vision with one of the best shooters going (release, catch-radius, one-timer, catch-and-release, low-angle, inside, outside all of it). It's a hell of a complementary duo. Perhaps an all-time combination...

But it begs the question of how good Draisaitl is in a vacuum? You can clearly answer this with members of the other center duos. And Jagr given how many seasons he played with no Mario. His level of play from 98/99 to 99/00 was at the same level of his 95/96 season.

If we focus on just forward duos, Ted Lindsay comes to mind. Arguably the #2/#3 forward in the league for a spell, good enough to win an Art Ross but spent a lot of time with Howe. The difference is that, so far, an argument can be made that Drai is the better playoff performer than McDavid.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, that's why proper talent evaluation is key.

 

[WarriorofTime]

But it begs the question of how good Draisaitl is in a vacuum? You can clearly answer this with members of the other center duos. And Jagr given how many seasons he played with no Mario. His level of play from 98/99 to 99/00 was at the same level of his 95/96 season.

If we focus on just forward duos, Ted Lindsay comes to mind. Arguably the #2/#3 forward in the league for a spell, good enough to win an Art Ross but spent a lot of time with Howe. The difference is that, so far, an argument can be made that Drai is the better playoff performer than McDavid.

No offense, but do you watch Oiler games that much? How good is Draistail in a vacuum? Elite of the elite tier. Pretty obvious. Notice how the coattail rider players never last for very long. Maybe they'll get 1 or 2 monster seasons, but then they fade because they don't stand out much on their own. Draisaitl has had pretty obviously great staying power.

They get paired together a lot because they have unbelievable chemistry on the ice together. You are naming a lot of famous duos that played on teams that had elite supporting casts. Like yeah, throw Ron Francis in the mix and it's a lot easier to separate. It would be ideal to have them separated to have two stronger lines but sometimes the other Oilers don't really step up because they don't have an elite supporting cast and they waste a lot of shifts out of McDavid and Draisaitl 5 on 5, so you put them together and it's lethal.

 

[daver]

No offense, but do you watch Oiler games that much? How good is Draistail in a vacuum? Elite of the elite tier. Pretty obvious. Notice how the coattail rider players never last for very long. Maybe they'll get 1 or 2 monster seasons, but then they fade because they don't stand out much on their own. Draisaitl has had pretty obviously great staying power.

They get paired together a lot because they have unbelievable chemistry on the ice together. You are naming a lot of famous duos that played on teams that had elite supporting casts. Like yeah, throw Ron Francis in the mix and it's a lot easier to separate. It would be ideal to have them separated to have two stronger lines but sometimes the other Oilers don't really step up because they don't have an elite supporting cast and they waste a lot of shifts out of McDavid and Draisaitl 5 on 5, so you put them together and it's lethal.

I am saying that if it comes down to choosing between Drai and another player with similar numbers, Drai's time with McDavid could be viewed as a tiebreaker.

Malkin comes to mind.

 

[authentic]

I am saying that if it comes down to choosing between Drai and another player with similar numbers, Drai's time with McDavid could be viewed as a tiebreaker.

Malkin comes to mind.

I generally agree but his performance in last years playoffs on one leg and this year so far makes you wonder if that tie breaker is necessary

 

[silkyjohnson50]

I don’t think you can compare their situation to the others, especially the Detroit and Colorado duos. Those were great overall teams who could beat you in multiple ways. Those teams could and did win Cups without Sakic/Forsberg and Yzerman/Fedorov even being the 1st and 2nd most valuable players during some of those runs.

Edmonton doesn’t have that luxury. Not even close. There’s basically no chance of winning a Cup if McDavid/Draisaitl aren’t hands down the best two players on the ice, unless their goaltending went on one of those special runs.

And with that lack of depth and great overall play, Edmonton isn’t going to win a Cup winning tight, low scoring games. Better teams will score on them, period. Which means Edmonton’s best chance is still probably simply attempting to out score opponents and the best way to do that is to put McDavid and Draisaitl together.

I don’t even know why they attempt otherwise to be honest. This isn’t the regular season where you can keep them apart and still make the playoffs. Between more consistent and persistent matchups, tighter checking, and only playing playoff quality teams, it’s a completely different beast. They try them apart, end up down and then are forced to put them together to claw their way back. Just keep them together. You are what you are. And that’s a very average, uninspiring team carried by two all time greats.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

If McDavid is injured and Draisaitl carries the team like Malkin and Fedorov did.

That is such a broken narrative. If you can’t recognize Draisaitl’s talent when McDavid is in the lineup, then your opinion concerning the player should not hold any value.

The guy won a Ross/Lindsey/Hart and is one of the 2 current players with 3 50+50 seasons (Ovechkin). He’s also been better than McDavid in the postseason so far.

As time goes by, unless he suddenly drastically declines in the next couple of years, he will be closer to the Ovechkin’s and the Crosby’s than the Malkin’s and Forsberg’s all time wise.

 

[daver]

I don’t think you can compare their situation to the others, especially the Detroit and Colorado duos. Those were great overall teams who could beat you in multiple ways. Those teams could and did win Cups without Sakic/Forsberg and Yzerman/Fedorov even being the 1st and 2nd most valuable players during some of those runs.

Edmonton doesn’t have that luxury. Not even close. There’s basically no chance of winning a Cup if McDavid/Draisaitl aren’t hands down the best two players on the ice, unless their goaltending went on one of those special runs.

And with that lack of depth and great overall play, Edmonton isn’t going to win a Cup winning tight, low scoring games. Better teams will score on them, period. Which means Edmonton’s best chance is still probably simply attempting to out score opponents and the best way to do that is to put McDavid and Draisaitl together.

I don’t even know why they attempt otherwise to be honest. This isn’t the regular season where you can keep them apart and still make the playoffs. Between more consistent and persistent matchups, tighter checking, and only playing playoff quality teams, it’s a completely different beast. They try them apart, end up down and then are forced to put them together to claw their way back. Just keep them together. You are what you are. And that’s a very average, uninspiring team carried by two all time greats.

Neither did the Pens in '09. Malkin has a Cup under his belt doing exactly what McDrai seemingly cannot do, produce independent of each other.

Sakic was a one man show in '96. Forsberg was in '02. Both had exceptional regular seasons without notable support from their teammates.

You cannot quite say the same for Draisaitl, yet. He certainly is writing a great playoff resume to close the gap between him and McDavid which places him in a unique position among the other GOAT #2 players.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I love Draisaitl but his playoff PPG is vastly inflated by the fact that such a high % of his playoff games are 1st round games.

 

[sr edler]

Yeah, I mean his hands and his playmaking, not that he skates like Fedorov or something.

To elaborate a little bit on this, I like players who stand out a bit stylistically. I've seen Draisaitl make plays this season no other player in the league does, especially on his backhand pass.

I can't remember the opponent, but there was an overtime sequence fairly late this season where Draisaitl set up McDavid on a breakaway with a half-rink spinorama backhand pass (and then after McD blew the scoring chance, Drai set him up with yet another breakaway on which he scored). It almost looked a bit like Lemieux setting up one of his line-mates in the late 80s.

It wasn't this game, but the sequence is similar from this Jets match-up.

You can see as soon as McD notice Draisaitl is in control of the puck, he just explodes out of the zone as if he's 92–93 Selänne.

I'm not sure how anyone can watch these two guys play together and not see that McDavid also benefits pretty strongly from the partnership.

If you're playing with a guy who can throw you passes no one else in the game throws, I'm not sure what else there really is to discuss.

 

[McFlash97]

I love Draisaitl but his playoff PPG is vastly inflated by the fact that such a high % of his playoff games are 1st round games.

I mean... what incredible logic here.... so enlightening... can you pull up the numbers... we will wait.

Go ahead.

My suggestion if you can't.. change your username to "TheLessYouKnow"

 

[SillyRabbit]

This thread actually made me wonder:

Is current Draisaitl a better player than peak/prime Messier?

 

[daver]

That is such a broken narrative. If you can’t recognize Draisaitl’s talent when McDavid is in the lineup, then your opinion concerning the player should not hold any value.

The guy won a Ross/Lindsey/Hart and is one of the 2 current players with 3 50+50 seasons (Ovechkin). He’s also been better than McDavid in the postseason so far.

As time goes by, unless he suddenly drastically declines in the next couple of years, he will be closer to the Ovechkin’s and the Crosby’s than the Malkin’s and Forsberg’s all time wise.

So why can't the Oilers consistently separate Drai from McDavid at ES like Malkin was from Crosby and Forsberg from Sakic?

When have you seen a generational C and, in your opinion, an almost generational C, play on the same line when a team is so lacking in secondary scoring?

An almost generational C, one who is facing the other team's secondary lines and d-pairings, should be able to carry a line offensively. And the Oilers have had plenty of different wingers (and Nugent-Hopkins) to try to create a less top heavy offense. It can't always be that the rest of the forwards suck.

If Drai deserves full credit then perhaps it's McDavid who is not as effective in the playoffs.

 

[daver]

Other than Orrsposito has there ever been a duo so tied together and talented like McDrai?