What does Draisaitl need to go down as the greatest ever number 2?

[psycat]

This is a silly post. More than 75% of Draisaitl's games without McDavid are in Drai's rookie year, when the Oilers were the worst team in the League and Drai was 18-19 years old, and in Draisaitl's second year, when the Oilers were again last in the Pacific.

What matters is that there have been significant and multiple stretches where Drai has out-performed McDavid. These include the 2017 playoffs, the entire 2019-20 season, the first quarter of the 2021-22 season, and the past six weeks, including the 2023 playoffs so far.

Jagr didn't beat Lemieux in scoring and for Hart trophies when they were playing together. Draisaitl has 'beaten' McDavid for a scoring title and Hart trophy while they played together.

Sure but, ill say it straight out, Lemieux was better than McDavid. Slightly off topic of course but McDavid could possibly pass him in an all-time ranking for me but it would have to be based on career value.

To me I don't think Draisaitl got any realistic shot of passing Jagr as a player and that also means he can't pass him as a #2, if we count Jagr as one that is.

Any other "#2" beyond that? Could see it happening but he is behind players like Malkin, Messier etc for me and would certainly need another couple of great regular seasons + a cup or two, preferably another individual trophy like Smythe, Ross, Hart etc and atleast okay longveity(Malkinesque) to have a solid case.

He is Forsberg territory for me if he just "plays out" his career from now on and that's still arguably the best European born "center" ever so no shame in that.

 

[daver]

Regarding when #2's production was affected by a #1, I think Jagr's production in 95/96 was influenced by Mario (even though Jagr hit that level of production, relatively speaking) a few years later). And again in 00/01.

Esposito was influenced by Orr to the extent it keeps him out of the Top 15/20 that his numbers would justify.

I would argue that Drai has been influenced by McDavid but the lack of supporting scoring over the years dampens that argument.

He deserves to be mentioned among the other #2 candidates in the league (e.g. Kucherov, MacKinnon). A Conn Smythe puts him above those two given his fuller regular seasons,

I don't think he is as good as Malkin so I would hesitate to put him ahead unless he significantly surpasses his regular resume.

 

[Moose Head]

Lindsay is a little overrated, for starters. Two, if this is about the second best player on the team, it's Red Kelly, right?

Sawchuk as well if we include goalies.

 

[Michael Farkas]

This is a silly post. More than 75% of Draisaitl's games without McDavid are in Drai's rookie year, when the Oilers were the worst team in the League and Drai was 18-19 years old, and in Draisaitl's second year, when the Oilers were again last in the Pacific.

What matters is that there have been significant and multiple stretches where Drai has out-performed McDavid. These include the 2017 playoffs, the entire 2019-20 season, the first quarter of the 2021-22 season, and the past six weeks, including the 2023 playoffs so far.

Jagr didn't beat Lemieux in scoring and for Hart trophies when they were playing together. Draisaitl has 'beaten' McDavid for a scoring title and Hart trophy while they played together.

Got it. So, it's silly when rookie Draisaitl didn't do anything with more or less the same team that McDavid inherited (the very next season). The clock doesn't start for Draisaitl until McDavid comes into the league. Not that I want to necessarily emphasize his rookie year or anything or give it undue weight...but in the context of "best second-best player of all time" you'd think there'd be some more compelling components...

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Draisaitl has 46 points in his last 22 playoff games and currently has the 2nd highest playoff PPG ever over Mario. He is also extremally durable unlike Malkin and Forsberg and has more top 5 scoring finishes than either of them. He also has more top 5 finishes than Trottier. Trottier has huge playoffs but Draisaitl is really strong there too. This has got me thinking about Draisaitl's chances of going down as the best number 2 ever.

I think the greatest ever number 2 would be Esposito. Esposito has cups, Harts and Scoring titles while being the clear number 2 to Orr in our eyes. What would it take for Draisaitl to pass him? Esposito has an advantage in that his generational talent was a defenseman which gave Esposito more of a chance for Harts and scoring titles. Draisaitl always being the second best forward on his own team makes it more or less impossible to win individual trophies since he won't lead his team in points. Draisaitl would probably need a dominant goalscoring year while being close in points to win another Hart unless McDavid misses time, but I can see Draisaitl win Conn Smyths if the team wins a cup.

If we would not consider Esposito because he is number 2 to a defenseman I think the best number 2 might be Mikita to Hull. Mikita won 4 Art Rosses, 1 Cup and 2 Harts in the 60s while leading the decade in points yet no one thought he was the best player of the decade, the consensus was that his teammate Hull was the man. Mikita did outperform Hull in regular season more than Draisaitl will outperform McDavid, but Mikita is not as strong in the playoffs as Draisaitl.

Do you think Draisaitl can go down as the best ever number 2?

Out of curiosity, why do you regard Esposito the second rather than Orr?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Out of curiosity, why do you regard Esposito the second rather than Orr?

Because Bobby Orr was a much better player, of course.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Because Bobby Orr was a much better player, of course.

Yeah, I hear ya...but Esposito was a record setter himself too though. Maybe they're 1A and 1B?

They're an interesting duo for sure.

 

[Matsun]

Out of curiosity, why do you regard Esposito the second rather than Orr?

I have Esposito as number 2 on the team because Orr was clearly better. There is obviously a difference when you play with offensive defenseman better than you than with a superior forward. It's easiest to compare Draisaitl to Forsberg and Malkin when it comes to situation.

 

[Professor What]

Yeah, I hear ya...but Esposito was a record setter himself too though. Maybe they're 1A and 1B?

They're an interesting duo for sure.

Orr is in the conversation for the GOAT. Esposito isn't. That makes it an obvious 1-2 situation for me.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Orr is in the conversation for the GOAT. Esposito isn't. That makes it an obvious 1-2 situation for me.

Very true.

I find Esposito is seriously forgotten. This man was the Alex Ovechkin of his time, scoring multiple 60 goal seasons in an era where scoring was just over 6 a game.

He wasn't flashy though, that's for sure

 

[daver]

Malkin/Crosby point shares between 06/07 and 09/10

44% of Malkin's RS points were shared with Crosby (not incl. Crosby's missed games in 07/08)

32% of Malkin's playoff points were shared with Crosby


Draisaitl/McDavid point shares between 18/19 and 22/23

59% of Draisaitl's RS points were shared with McDavid (not including McDavid's missed games in 19/20)

65% of Draisaitl's playoff points were shared with McDavid

 

[The Panther]

Got it. So, it's silly when rookie Draisaitl didn't do anything with more or less the same team that McDavid inherited (the very next season). The clock doesn't start for Draisaitl until McDavid comes into the league. Not that I want to necessarily emphasize his rookie year or anything or give it undue weight...but in the context of "best second-best player of all time" you'd think there'd be some more compelling components...

Not sure if serious...?

It's be like saying---if 1990-91 was the only season Mario Lemieux mostly missed---that Jagr's 57 points that year demonstrate that he wasn't that great without Mario.

Yes, McDavid was a better rookie than Draisaitl. This isn't news. Draisaitl didn't hit his mark until his third season.

Draisaitl is a bit of an odd player in terms of development. In Juniors, he seems to have been noted mainly as a playmaker, and his goal-scoring was very secondary (in the WHL, he got about 1 assist per game, and about 1 goal every two games). At some point, in the NHL, he transitioned to being a deadly shooter, and a high volume goal scorer.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Now, again, we're talking about best #2 of all time, right? So, imagine if Draisaitl was actually good as a rookie and had, say, 70 or so points...am I to believe that that would NOT be used to prop up his case?

 

[The Panther]

Now, again, we're talking about best #2 of all time, right? So, imagine if Draisaitl was actually good as a rookie and had, say, 70 or so points...am I to believe that that would NOT be used to prop up his case?

Nowhere am I arguing that Draisaitl is the best ＃2 of all time. I am merely saying that how he performed as a teenage rookie on the League's worst team isn't a relevant factor in evaluating this.

 

[McFlash97]

Leon's playoff resume is chalking up to be quite an incredible thing. Hopefully a cup soon and solidifies himself as one of the greatest European forwards of all time.

 

[Staniowski]

Draisaitl has consistently scored more when McDavid wasn't playing.

In '16, he scored 30 points in 37 without McDavid; 21 points in 35 games with.

In '19, 6 points in 4 games without

In '20, 12 points in 7 games without.

And just 1 game (1 point) without in the last 3 seasons.

 

[daver]

Draisaitl has consistently scored more when McDavid wasn't playing.

In '16, he scored 30 points in 37 without McDavid; 21 points in 35 games with.

In '19, 6 points in 4 games without

In '20, 12 points in 7 games without.

And just 1 game (1 point) without in the last 3 seasons.

If this is supposed to boost Drai as an independent offensive force whose numbers speak for themselves, why haven't the Oilers consistently separated them into two #1Cs like Crosby/Malkin, Sakic/Forsberg and Yzerman/Federov? Even Hull and and MIkita were mainly on separate lines.

A lack of scoring depth has been a big weakness for the Oilers in the McDavid era.

When this point is brought up, most Oiler fans point to Draisaitl's ES production going down when he is not on the same line with McDavid at ES.

This is backed up when looking at the difference in Draisaitl's production and advanced stats in the last three years when he with McDavid vs. when not at ES.

Line Combinations - Frozen Tools

NHL line combinations, NHL lineups from dobberhockey.com

frozenpool.dobbersports.com

 

[daver]

What I mean is, you can evaluate Draisaitl as a player whether he's teammates (or even linemates) with McDavid or not. Same as Esposito with Orr.

It doesn't have anything to do with whether Draisaitl is the 2nd-best player in the league. Even if Draisaitl is the 2nd-best scorer in the NHL, that doesn't mean he's the 2nd-best player.

Let's be clear here, statistically, Drai has very good arguments for being the clear #2 offensive player/forward in the league since 18/19.

NHL Stats

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The clear #2 in points, #2 in PPG, #1 in goals, #2 in GPG, and a ridiculous playoff PPG.

By usual HF measures, he would be the consensus #2 rated offensive forward if only due to his rivals having missed significant time in the regular season.

But he also has a significantly high amount of point shares with McDavid, whose stature as a Top 5/10 offensive talent all-time seems to be entrenched at this point.

I don't think we can evaluate him in a vacuum like we can for players like Malkin and Mikita, and even Esposito.

I think there is more Kurri in him then there is Jagr. But a Conn Smythe winning playoff where he outscores McDavid, or even multiple playoff runs where he outscores McDavid, can temper this.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Who was Harvey #2 behind in Montreal?

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

ChiTownPhilly's highly subjective list of top twelve 1-2s in Hockey History:

1. Béliveau-Harvey
2. Gretzky-Messier
3. M. Lemieux-Jágr
4. G. Howe-Kelly
5. Orr-P. Esposito
6. Bo. Hull-Mikita
7. Fetisov-Makarov
8. D. Potvin-Trottier
9. Lafleur-Robinson
10. Lidström-Yzerman
11. Tretiak-Kharlamov
12. Crosby-Malkin
[HMs. Bi. Cook-F. Boucher, Sakic-Forsberg]

In this group, only Hull-Mikita won as few as just one lone Championship. I'd assert that McDavid-Draisaitl have even less to work with than Hull-Mikita did. Perhaps the least-regarded player in this group is Malkin. There's a case for Draisaitl over Malkin... but (I believe) no serious case over any other...

yet.

If we limit the discussion to "1-2 Centers," then it becomes a more interesting discussion, and something other than a 'not-even-in-the-top-10' sort of exercise.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Who was Harvey #2 behind in Montreal?

Jean Beliveau

 

[daver]

If we limit the discussion to "1-2 Centers," then it becomes a more interesting discussion, and something other than a 'not-even-in-the-top-10" sort of exercise.

Considering the amount of time they have spent together at ES, are McDavid and Draisaitl two Centers or two forwards who can play both at C and on the W?

Which is the better comparable? Two Cs, or just two forwards, who were on separate lines or two forwards who played together more often than not?

Mario/Jagr would argubly be the better comparable than Crosby/Malkin. Especially where you can argue that Jagr's numbers were clearly boosted in 95/96.

 

[Staniowski]

If this is supposed to boost Drai as an independent offensive force whose numbers speak for themselves, why haven't the Oilers consistently separated them into two #1Cs like Crosby/Malkin, Sakic/Forsberg and Yzerman/Federov? Even Hull and and MIkita were mainly on separate lines.

A lack of scoring depth has been a big weakness for the Oilers in the McDavid era.

When this point is brought up, most Oiler fans point to Draisaitl's ES production going down when he is not on the same line with McDavid at ES.

This is backed up when looking at the difference in Draisaitl's production and advanced stats in the last three years when he with McDavid vs. when not at ES.

Line Combinations - Frozen Tools

NHL line combinations, NHL lineups from dobberhockey.com

frozenpool.dobbersports.com

Whether players like McDavid and Draisaitl play together on the same line, or not, depends on several factors. Like how good they are defensively, the quality of their other linemates, the quality of their defensemen and goaltender (the overall team), the teams they're playing against, etc.

 

[daver]

Whether players like McDavid and Draisaitl play together on the same line, or not, depends on several factors. Like how good they are defensively, the quality of their other linemates, the quality of their defensemen and goaltender (the overall team), the teams they're playing against, etc.

I think they play together because they cannot roll two lines consistently enough to win games. When have we ever seen a generational talent and the #2 offensive player, statistically, not be separated when a team is so lacking in offensive depth?

Regardless, it is not unreasonable to pick Draisaitl's numbers apart to assess his value or value a player like Mallkin more who proved he didn't need Crosby to produce.

 

[independent observer]

I don't know, it seems way too early to make any conclusions regarding McDavid and the playoffs. Edmonton has two playoffs runs since he came into the league, one where Draisaitl was much better and one where McDavid was much better despite the point totals being similar. Mikita and Hull seem a lot closer on paper, regardless of playoffs, but their reputations generally had Hull clearly ahead for most people.

The Kings focused on McD and that gave Drai extra space that he used to his advantage. Everyone that watches Oilers games know that McD is the engine/play driver of this team.

Lets look at McDs numbers after a couple of rounds. Some act as he underdelivered… he still scored just not in Drais level.