What do we do with our 2024 1st

[PelagicJoe]

We will have a much better idea of what to do once the lottery drawing happens. Maybe the hockey gods will have mercy on us for once. I know, if that happens, we will all eat our hats.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Who said f*** all about linear production?

I'm saying if you give a highly skilled offensive player a lot of ice time with other skilled players he will produce.

The bolded. Kane did none of that and he seemed to do ok.

The Wings have this f***ed up tendency to take a scorer, force then to play with scrubs on checking lines, then scratch their heads when they don't produce like expected. Then once every 10-20 years or so they let a kid start on a scoring line, kid scores, and doesn't get banished. That way they can point to that kid and say 'See? We give kids a fair shake!'

You're saying that if you forcefed Berggren more minutes and more ice time, he would be certain to produce at a point a game clip. Even though the last time he did that anywhere was as a 17 year old at Skelleftea and never once in professional hockey.

The idea that somehow he'd magically continue his pace from 13.5 minutes a night of 28 points in 67 to be around 41-42 points is what I was getting at with that. That's if he continued at literally the same rate. But the higher likelihood is that he wouldn't continue to produce at a similar clip because at 20 minutes a night, he's facing much more difficult assignments and teams would start keying on him if he did start scoring.

And yeah, I agree. It's real f***ed up that the Wings want their young prospects to play a complete hockey game and aren't interested in "f*** the giveaways', did you score?

Did they throw Larkin with scrubs? Mantha? Raymond? No, because they showed in their draft year or training camp or time in the minors that they could carry that weight. The only one I'll remotely entertain your theory on is Jurco... but that was Mike Babcock calling for him long before he was ready. Tomas Jurco was literally the only forward I will countenance your opinion on "wow, they really didn't do him any favors"... and that is because Jurco was a scorer in a banger's body and Mike Babcock was a coach with no idea how to utilize that.

 

[Konnan511]

You're saying that if you forcefed Berggren more minutes and more ice time, he would be certain to produce at a point a game clip. Even though the last time he did that anywhere was as a 17 year old at Skelleftea and never once in professional hockey.

The idea that somehow he'd magically continue his pace from 13.5 minutes a night of 28 points in 67 to be around 41-42 points is what I was getting at with that. That's if he continued at literally the same rate. But the higher likelihood is that he wouldn't continue to produce at a similar clip because at 20 minutes a night, he's facing much more difficult assignments and teams would start keying on him if he did start scoring.

And yeah, I agree. It's real f***ed up that the Wings want their young prospects to play a complete hockey game and aren't interested in "f*** the giveaways', did you score?

Did they throw Larkin with scrubs? Mantha? Raymond? No, because they showed in their draft year or training camp or time in the minors that they could carry that weight. The only one I'll remotely entertain your theory on is Jurco... but that was Mike Babcock calling for him long before he was ready. Tomas Jurco was literally the only forward I will countenance your opinion on "wow, they really didn't do him any favors"... and that is because Jurco was a scorer in a banger's body and Mike Babcock was a coach with no idea how to utilize that.

He did it this year and last year in the AHL and almost again his first year in the AHL.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

He did it this year and last year in the AHL and almost again his first year in the AHL.

I wasn't aware that 64 in 70 was a point per game. I wasn't aware that 45 in 49 was point per game. I mean, I've gotten whacked for saying that Mitch Marner wasn't a 100 point skater (hitting 97 and 99).

 

[norrisnick]

You're saying that if you forcefed Berggren more minutes and more ice time, he would be certain to produce at a point a game clip. Even though the last time he did that anywhere was as a 17 year old at Skelleftea and never once in professional hockey.

The idea that somehow he'd magically continue his pace from 13.5 minutes a night of 28 points in 67 to be around 41-42 points is what I was getting at with that. That's if he continued at literally the same rate. But the higher likelihood is that he wouldn't continue to produce at a similar clip because at 20 minutes a night, he's facing much more difficult assignments and teams would start keying on him if he did start scoring.

And yeah, I agree. It's real f***ed up that the Wings want their young prospects to play a complete hockey game and aren't interested in "f*** the giveaways', did you score?

Did they throw Larkin with scrubs? Mantha? Raymond? No, because they showed in their draft year or training camp or time in the minors that they could carry that weight. The only one I'll remotely entertain your theory on is Jurco... but that was Mike Babcock calling for him long before he was ready. Tomas Jurco was literally the only forward I will countenance your opinion on "wow, they really didn't do him any favors"... and that is because Jurco was a scorer in a banger's body and Mike Babcock was a coach with no idea how to utilize that.

If you read what I said, you would know what I'm saying and not have to make up things I didn't say.

"Had you force-fed Berggren Kane's deployment and disregarded all the lost battles and defensive miscues you'd have come awful close to similar numbers."

1. There is no claim of certainty, but f*** it, I'm fairly certain.
2. Kane didn't score at a point a game clip, and even if he did, my saying "awful close to similar numbers" would not necessitate that Berggren score at a point per game.
3. Kane scored at a .94 point per game this season
4. Berggren has a .97 and change point per game in the AHL over the last three seasons. Where he was [checks notes] not 17 and [checks notes again] was playing professional hockey.
5. Hung up on math, but disregarding a massive increase in the talent and ability of linemates. That tracks.

You get distracted by an idea of what someone might have said and then get lost in the weeds. I'm not going to keep dragging you back on the path.

I wasn't aware that 64 in 70 was a point per game. I wasn't aware that 45 in 49 was point per game. I mean, I've gotten whacked for saying that Mitch Marner wasn't a 100 point skater (hitting 97 and 99).

Were you similarly not aware that 47 in 50 is also not a point per game?

 

[Konnan511]

I wasn't aware that 64 in 70 was a point per game. I wasn't aware that 45 in 49 was point per game. I mean, I've gotten whacked for saying that Mitch Marner wasn't a 100 point skater (hitting 97 and 99).

He had 56 in 53 games this season in the AHL, he had 7 in 7 last season in the AHL, and his first season (where I said almost a point per game) he had 64 in 70 in the AHL.

 

[ricky0034]

and how much would Kane be producing in the AHL?

if producing as much as Kane did given enough minutes was so easy you'd think someone else on the Wings other than literally just Larkin would have done it

 

[norrisnick]

and how much would Kane be producing in the AHL?

if producing as much as Kane did given enough minutes was so easy you'd think someone else on the Wings other than literally just Larkin would have done it

Without Larkin or Debrincat on his line? Not a whole lot. The Perron - Compher - Kane line wasn't exactly gang-busters.

Who said anything about easy? I'm not talking Kostin or Fischer here. Berggren is legitimately talented offensively. Use him as such. Oh he's bad defensively and in puck battles? Well guess what, so is Patrick Kane and no one gave two shits about that with him.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Without Larkin or Debrincat on his line? Not a whole lot. The Perron - Compher - Kane line wasn't exactly gang-busters.

Who said anything about easy? I'm not talking Kostin or Fischer here. Berggren is legitimately talented offensively. Use him as such. Oh he's bad defensively and in puck battles? Well guess what, so is Patrick Kane and no one gave two shits about that with him.

What. You can stump for Berggren without having to do this weird denigration of a Hall of Fame level player. Like, it's not a crime for Jonatan Berggren to not be as good a hockey player as Patrick Kane. Given equal opportunities, Kane will outstrip Berggren 1000 times out of 1000.

Joantan Berggren is shuttling in and out of the lineup and fighting to get out of GR because he's good and not great. He's talented but not so undeniably so that he forces their hand (a la Lucas Raymond, Moritz Seider, or Dylan Larkin).

Look, I like Berggren and agree he deserves more of a chance than he's been given. Just think it's ludicrously stupid to have to put down a legitimately great player in Kane to make his case. He wouldn't produce similarly to Patrick Kane given equal deployment.

 

[norrisnick]

You might want to re-read the thread if you think I'm denigrating a HOF level player. You might also want to re-watch the season if you think we received HOF level play...

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I can't wait for Berggren to play his way out of this organization. He is without question one of the most overrated Wings prospects in a very long time. He isn't held back, he just sucks. People will be complaining about his allergy to human contact soon enough. But hey, he is Swedish and undersized so we are all supposed to love him.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

I can't wait for Berggren to play his way out of this organization. He is without question one of the most overrated Wings prospects in a very long time. He isn't held back, he just sucks. People will be complaining about his allergy to human contact soon enough. But hey, he is Swedish and undersized so we are all supposed to love him.

You’re more right than wrong about this.

You want to see a legitimately skilled offensive player? Look at Lucas Raymond. He was so good that he made them start him at 19. He’s been so good that they’ve kept him there and he’s making huge star strides.

Young guys make the NHL by breaking the door down and forcing teams’ hands. They don’t get forced minutes to “work through it”

 

[norrisnick]

You’re more right than wrong about this.

You want to see a legitimately skilled offensive player? Look at Lucas Raymond. He was so good that he made them start him at 19. He’s been so good that they’ve kept him there and he’s making huge star strides.

Young guys make the NHL by breaking the door down and forcing teams’ hands. They don’t get forced minutes to “work through it”

Hilariously omitting that Berggren outplayed Ray in the '21 camp but got hurt so Ray got Vrana's spot (also hurt).

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

You’re more right than wrong about this.

You want to see a legitimately skilled offensive player? Look at Lucas Raymond. He was so good that he made them start him at 19. He’s been so good that they’ve kept him there and he’s making huge star strides.

Young guys make the NHL by breaking the door down and forcing teams’ hands. They don’t get forced minutes to “work through it”

The other thing is that he just sucks, Mark my words, people will tire of his softness and coaches will come to hate him. The rink ain't round. It has corners.

 

[norrisnick]

The other thing is that he just sucks, Mark my words, people will tire of his softness and coaches will come to hate him. The rink ain't round. It has corners.

This is an NHL rink if you take away the straight boards...

 

[Baaaaaaaaaaaaah]

Whatever we do, don't let Draper draft anymore.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I can't wait for Berggren to play his way out of this organization. He is without question one of the most overrated Wings prospects in a very long time. He isn't held back, he just sucks. People will be complaining about his allergy to human contact soon enough. But hey, he is Swedish and undersized so we are all supposed to love him.

No fanbase hates skill players as much as Wings fans.

 

[jkutswings]

No fanbase hates skill players as much as Wings fans.

The blueprint for this roster is four lines of two-way forwards, using scoring depth to try to make up for the lack of elite level pieces. So if Berggren is ever going to stick, he will need to provide both decent scoring AND decent two-way play.

Blame the lottery, blame the philosophy. But the kid will either adapt his game or get dealt. That's just the situation he's in.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

The blueprint for this roster is four lines of two-way forwards, using scoring depth to try to make up for the lack of elite level pieces. So if Berggren is ever going to stick, he will need to provide both decent scoring AND decent two-way play.

Blame the lottery, blame the philosophy. But the kid will either adapt his game or get dealt. That's just the situation he's in.

I think our team could easily welcome an elite perimeter playmaker that goes against the style we're trying to assemble.. we just need better supporting cast to allow that player to flourish...

Kane is a good example
Marner would be incredible

 

[jkutswings]

I think our team could easily welcome an elite perimeter playmaker that goes against the style we're trying to assemble.. we just need better supporting cast to allow that player to flourish...

Kane is a good example
Marner would be incredible

Not my personal cup of tea, but a fair point. But I don't know that anybody has seen anything from Berggren that indicates he will ever be anywhere near elite at anything. So the premise remains for Jonatan.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

No fanbase hates skill players as much as Wings fans.

And that right there is this board at its finest. He is not that skilled objectively. People want to treat him as a skilled player because we don't have a ton of skilled players to begin with. He isn't all that skilled, he is just our next most skilled player. Then we convince ourselves that he is skilled enough to play however the hell he wants at the NHL level with equal impact. We just set ourselves up for disappointment over and over and over again.

There are plenty of effective, soft, truly skilled offensive players in the NHL. Berggren, however, is not skilled enough to play that way. This is an issue because it is the only way he knows how to play or wants to play. Watch what happens when he leaves Detroit eventually. He won't be playing solid top 6 minutes on a bona fide playoff team.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

No fanbase hates skill players as much as Wings fans.

This is an insane statement.

1) Every hockey fanbase "hates" skill players. Hockey fans will 1000% take a Kris Draper who grinds every time on the ice vs a Sergei Fedorov for whom the game seems easy and it seems like he coasts. It's the sole reason why there is remotely talk of Marner getting dealt anywhere.
2) Most fanbases hate skill players who aren't really that great at being skill players. One way offensive player who scores 0.33 PPG and does nothing defensively is like a cock-flavored lollipop.
3) Where was the Wings fan hate for the Russian Five as a unit? For Pav? For Z? They don't like skilled players who don't also do something else (physicality, elite playmaking, etc)

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I think our team could easily welcome an elite perimeter playmaker that goes against the style we're trying to assemble.. we just need better supporting cast to allow that player to flourish...

Kane is a good example
Marner would be incredible

Are you suggesting that Berggren is an elite perimeter playmaker? I will let you walk that back right now...

 

[Indrid Cold]

The blueprint for this roster is four lines of two-way forwards, using scoring depth to try to make up for the lack of elite level pieces. So if Berggren is ever going to stick, he will need to provide both decent scoring AND decent two-way play.

Blame the lottery, blame the philosophy. But the kid will either adapt his game or get dealt. That's just the situation he's in.

I think you nailed it.

I still think you develop a two-way NHL game by playing IN the NHL. I certainly see Pelican's point too, though.

College doesn't fully prepare you for the workplace. You still need to develop once you're there. And playing AHL defense doesn't fully prepare you to play D in the NHL. Not all prospects are like Mo and Ray, and Berg needs NHL minutes to develop, mistakes or not.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

I do hope the Leafs lose so we get a Jumbo Joe type deal for Marner. I.E. pieces that will never be as valuable as a player of that ilk.

You know, a guy who takes WAY too much heat for non-performance so he's dealt for relative peanuts.