Was Scott Stevens a dirty hitter

[Fugu]

If you are seriously denying that people in the 90s didnt know about head trauma then this conversation should be over. I mean Stevens himself suffered from a delayed concussion in 94.

I think people understood that a concussion (very obvious symptoms) was indeed serious, but what wasn't know, due to changes in diagnostic methods thanks to medical advances, was how early the damage starts (asymptomatic), that the damage is cumulative, and how to diagnose players.

As the evidence mounted and you started seeing players dying off in their 40s due to degeneration of the brain and neurological function, people studied the issue further. We know much more today than 20-30 yrs ago.

I'm not interested with arguing semantics with you; it's clear to anyone who has been following the sport since the 90s (or sports in general) that concussions are taken far more seriously today - back then, taking out a player's knees was considered far more serious.

I think this is true since it was immediately obvious that the knee was done, career over. Getting your bell rung didn't connote the same medical impression then as it does today.

Further to that, medically more things are possible today than in earlier eras, so the same kind of knee injury didn't necessarily mean the end to one's career.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think people understood that a concussion (very obvious symptoms) was indeed serious, but what wasn't know, due to changes in diagnostic methods thanks to medical advances, was how early the damage starts (asymptomatic), that the damage is cumulative, and how to diagnose players.

As the evidence mounted and you started seeing players dying off in their 40s due to degeneration of the brain and neurological function, people studied the issue further. We know much more today than 20-30 yrs ago.




I think this is true since it was immediately obvious that the knee was done, career over. Getting your bell rung didn't connote the same medical impression then as it does today.

Further to that, medically more things are possible today than in earlier eras, so the same kind of knee injury didn't necessarily mean the end to one's career.

I agree with all of this. To add to this, what was thought of as a "severe concussion" from a clean hit was quite rare back then. If a player "got his bell rung, but shook it off" (like the Slava Kozlov hit for example), nobody thought about it twice. Maybe they should have, maybe there was some research, but none of the players, coaches, announcers, or fans thought about it.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I always thought of him as one of the dirtiest players of his time.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I always thought of him as one of the dirtiest players of his time.

Based on?

 

[Big Phil]

Few teams have.

From 1994-2003 collectively, he was the most valuable playoff performer in the NHL, period. As you said, his impact on the game was immeasurable.

Fair points. He just might have been. He has some company as the most impactful playoff performer during this time though. Sakic, Roy, Yzerman, Fedorov, Forsberg come to mind as well. I know full well as a Leaf fan I hated when we played Stevens' Devils in the postseason.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

you know, contrary to this some opinions expressed in this thread, i actually thought of the blood and guts captains of his era who led their teams to multiple cups, stevens was the most likeable and respectable.

messier was unequivocally dirty and very cheap with the elbows and lumber, yzerman constantly whined to the refs and had a much more crosby-esque demeanour on the ice than we like to remember, leaving stevens as the stoic, classy one-- especially in direct comparison with the two aforementioned captains he met deep in the playoffs in back to back years.

this is excluding sakic and mario, because as much as i respect burnaby joe's quiet leadership i don't think anyone would consider those guys blood and guts leaders. actually, i think if any other player of that era belongs with messier, yzerman, and stevens as a blood and guts playoff leader, it's patrick roy, who was kind of a de facto captain of the '93 habs and '96 avs, if not also the '01 avs. and roy, as we all know, as much as i loved his bluster and bravado, and as much as i'm still entertained by his antics today as a head coach, had a fraction of stevens' all-business, workmanlike class.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

you know, contrary to this some opinions expressed in this thread, i actually thought of the blood and guts captains of his era who led their teams to multiple cups, stevens was the most likeable and respectable.

messier was unequivocally dirty and very cheap with the elbows and lumber, yzerman constantly whined to the refs and had a much more crosby-esque demeanour on the ice than we like to remember, leaving stevens as the stoic, classy one-- especially in direct comparison with the two aforementioned captains he met deep in the playoffs in back to back years.

this is excluding sakic and mario, because as much as i respect burnaby joe's quiet leadership i don't think anyone would consider those guys blood and guts leaders. actually, i think if any other player of that era belongs with messier, yzerman, and stevens as a blood and guts playoff leader, it's patrick roy, who was kind of a de facto captain of the '93 habs and '96 avs, if not also the '01 avs. and roy, as we all know, as much as i loved his bluster and bravado, and as much as i'm still entertained by his antics today as a head coach, had a fraction of stevens' all-business, workmanlike class.

Derian Hatcher - always the odd man out, eh?

 

[Big Phil]

you know, contrary to this some opinions expressed in this thread, i actually thought of the blood and guts captains of his era who led their teams to multiple cups, stevens was the most likeable and respectable.

messier was unequivocally dirty and very cheap with the elbows and lumber, yzerman constantly whined to the refs and had a much more crosby-esque demeanour on the ice than we like to remember, leaving stevens as the stoic, classy one-- especially in direct comparison with the two aforementioned captains he met deep in the playoffs in back to back years.

this is excluding sakic and mario, because as much as i respect burnaby joe's quiet leadership i don't think anyone would consider those guys blood and guts leaders. actually, i think if any other player of that era belongs with messier, yzerman, and stevens as a blood and guts playoff leader, it's patrick roy, who was kind of a de facto captain of the '93 habs and '96 avs, if not also the '01 avs. and roy, as we all know, as much as i loved his bluster and bravado, and as much as i'm still entertained by his antics today as a head coach, had a fraction of stevens' all-business, workmanlike class.

True enough. You know, Yzerman joked at his retirement speech that the only people happy to see him retire were the referees. I think this helps Crosby's case today. Yes he complains to the refs, but most captains did. Chalk it up to intensity. Crosby has that, Yzerman had that. Gretzky had that even. I think the difference is Crosby and his diving habits got him more of a muddied name than Yzerman. But yeah, Stevie Y himself knew he complained to the refs a lot. No biggie.

No question about it Stevens was a beast. He was a little like Potvin that way as captains go. Intense, scary, determined. Stevens' own wife had to sit up high in the stands because seeing his eyes during the playoff time freaked her out so much. Now THAT is intensity. But I still like Messier and Yzerman as my captains. They were competitors. Yzerman played in 2002 on one knee. He gained a lot of respect with people. Messier just gave himself room because of his dirty play. In a way it's cheap, and in another way you were scared to death of him.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Derian Hatcher - always the odd man out, eh?

well, a certain mr. stevens and his conn smythe performance in 2000 keeps hatcher off the list right?

but i did feel like hatcher had some stevens-ish qualities to him (obviously), only significantly dirtier as a hitter and with the stickwork. kind of like if you crossed stevens with a WWF wrestler (not just talking physique, but not not talking about physique either). hatcher would hit you with a chair while matvichuk distracted the ref.

True enough. You know, Yzerman joked at his retirement speech that the only people happy to see him retire were the referees. I think this helps Crosby's case today. Yes he complains to the refs, but most captains did. Chalk it up to intensity. Crosby has that, Yzerman had that. Gretzky had that even. I think the difference is Crosby and his diving habits got him more of a muddied name than Yzerman. But yeah, Stevie Y himself knew he complained to the refs a lot. No biggie.

No question about it Stevens was a beast. He was a little like Potvin that way as captains go. Intense, scary, determined. Stevens' own wife had to sit up high in the stands because seeing his eyes during the playoff time freaked her out so much. Now THAT is intensity. But I still like Messier and Yzerman as my captains. They were competitors. Yzerman played in 2002 on one knee. He gained a lot of respect with people. Messier just gave himself room because of his dirty play. In a way it's cheap, and in another way you were scared to death of him.

i'm not saying necessarily that stevens was the better captain or leader or playoff performer than messier or yzerman. i'm just saying that in some ways he seemed like a choirboy compared to them-- which to me is ironic being that he's now being retroactively vilified for being a dirty player.

like imagine coach's corner in '94 and '95. don cherry would make excuses for messier-- he wants it so bad, he'll do anything to win (i.e., be a dirty SOB). he'll make excuses for yzerman-- he wants it so bad he crosses the line with the refs (i.e., he's a whiner and at times misses the forest for the trees in that respect). but scotty stevens-- "good kitchener boy. salt of the earth. plays the game the right way." you know what i mean?

 

[billybudd]

Maybe cuase I played at a level where hitting was aloud I have a different perspective.

Is Zdeno Chara a dirty player? Stevens was not a small guy and he did a lot of body on body hits

for me Marchment and Kasperitis where dity players 100% with stevens you needed to keep your head up

Chara is absolutely a dirty player. Chara should have gotten a 3 game suspension for performing intentional dentistry on Hertl last season and a another 2 for Pronger Physics Elbowing Wingels in the back of the head 5 seconds late last year. And that's just in one game.

The only distinction between Kasparaitis and Stevens as hitters is that Stevens was bigger and willing to fight to back his play up. There's no thinking one's dirty and the other not. They threw the same types of checks.

I'm on the fence about both of the last two. I can understand that their ambivalence about the other guys health could be seen as dirty, but they weren't particularly doing anything against the rules. Unsportsmanlike, sure, but is that the same as dirty? Dunno about that.

 

[billybudd]

I think people understood that a concussion (very obvious symptoms) was indeed serious, but what wasn't know, due to changes in diagnostic methods thanks to medical advances, was how early the damage starts (asymptomatic), that the damage is cumulative, and how to diagnose players.

As the evidence mounted and you started seeing players dying off in their 40s due to degeneration of the brain and neurological function, people studied the issue further. We know much more today than 20-30 yrs ago.




I think this is true since it was immediately obvious that the knee was done, career over. Getting your bell rung didn't connote the same medical impression then as it does today.

Further to that, medically more things are possible today than in earlier eras, so the same kind of knee injury didn't necessarily mean the end to one's career.

On my phone, so I can't find the link, but Lafontaine talked about this. Long story short, he had no idea concussions were serious business until a doctor told him they jeopardized his career. Want to say that was in 96 or 97.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Chara is absolutely a dirty player. Chara should have gotten a 3 game suspension for performing intentional dentistry on Hertl last season and a another 2 for Pronger Physics Elbowing Wingels in the back of the head 5 seconds late last year. And that's just in one game.

The only distinction between Kasparaitis and Stevens as hitters is that Stevens was bigger and willing to fight to back his play up. There's no thinking one's dirty and the other not. They threw the same types of checks.

I'm on the fence about both of the last two. I can understand that their ambivalence about the other guys health could be seen as dirty, but they weren't particularly doing anything against the rules. Unsportsmanlike, sure, but is that the same as dirty? Dunno about that.

Marchment was the king of the knee-on-knee hit; absolutely dirty. IMO, the dirtiest defenseman of the television era. (Dale Hunter gets my pick for the dirtiest forward of the television era).

I somewhat agree with you on Kasparaitis - his most famous hits were clean hits like Stevens'. Not sure what Kasparaitis' history of elbowing penalties is - anyone know?

 

[Hobnobs]

True enough. You know, Yzerman joked at his retirement speech that the only people happy to see him retire were the referees. I think this helps Crosby's case today. Yes he complains to the refs, but most captains did. Chalk it up to intensity. Crosby has that, Yzerman had that. Gretzky had that even. I think the difference is Crosby and his diving habits got him more of a muddied name than Yzerman. But yeah, Stevie Y himself knew he complained to the refs a lot. No biggie.

No question about it Stevens was a beast. He was a little like Potvin that way as captains go. Intense, scary, determined. Stevens' own wife had to sit up high in the stands because seeing his eyes during the playoff time freaked her out so much. Now THAT is intensity. But I still like Messier and Yzerman as my captains. They were competitors. Yzerman played in 2002 on one knee. He gained a lot of respect with people. Messier just gave himself room because of his dirty play. In a way it's cheap, and in another way you were scared to death of him.

The difference between Yzerman and Crosby is that Yzerman was a much more classy player at the other aspects of the game.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

On my phone, so I can't find the link, but Lafontaine talked about this. Long story short, he had no idea concussions were serious business until a doctor told him they jeopardized his career. Want to say that was in 96 or 97.

Doesn't seem like quite what you were looking for, but here's one article about it:

In the fall of 1996, the Sabres captain suffered a concussion early on in the season. But back then, things were different. Hockey’s culture encouraged NHLers to play through “getting their bell rung.†Doctors had yet to fully grasp the severity of head injuries.

But deep down, LaFontaine knew something was seriously wrong.

“I remember going to the doctors and saying, ‘Something’s not right. I don’t feel like myself,’†said LaFontaine, recalling how he was repeatedly told that everything was fine.

“I remember being scared the first time and getting emotional. I played one more game and everything was going too fast. Thank God (coach) Ted Nolan pulled me aside and said, ‘You’re not right.’â€

Nolan’s decision to keep his star forward out of action literally proved to be a lifesaver.

“I had this sense of relief and I remember breaking down,†LaFontaine said. “Every single neurologist said to me, ‘Just pray and be thankful you didn’t get hit during that time. You shouldn’t have been playing. You’re so lucky you didn’t get hit during that period of time.’â€

http://hockeyjournal.com/news/pros/nhl/LaFontaine_striving_to_end_hockey-s_concussion_epidemic

That's a pretty incredible story. While specialist neurologists understood the severity of concussions, team doctors seemed to have been completely ignorant.

 

[Hobnobs]

i'm not saying necessarily that stevens was the better captain or leader or playoff performer than messier or yzerman. i'm just saying that in some ways he seemed like a choirboy compared to them-- which to me is ironic being that he's now being retroactively vilified for being a dirty player.

like imagine coach's corner in '94 and '95. don cherry would make excuses for messier-- he wants it so bad, he'll do anything to win (i.e., be a dirty SOB). he'll make excuses for yzerman-- he wants it so bad he crosses the line with the refs (i.e., he's a whiner and at times misses the forest for the trees in that respect). but scotty stevens-- "good kitchener boy. salt of the earth. plays the game the right way." you know what i mean?

Don Cherry always pumped up Ontario-based player. They really had to do something extremely dirty to get criticized. I dont think he ever criticized marchment either. Anyone remember?

 

[Big Phil]

i'm not saying necessarily that stevens was the better captain or leader or playoff performer than messier or yzerman. i'm just saying that in some ways he seemed like a choirboy compared to them-- which to me is ironic being that he's now being retroactively vilified for being a dirty player.

like imagine coach's corner in '94 and '95. don cherry would make excuses for messier-- he wants it so bad, he'll do anything to win (i.e., be a dirty SOB). he'll make excuses for yzerman-- he wants it so bad he crosses the line with the refs (i.e., he's a whiner and at times misses the forest for the trees in that respect). but scotty stevens-- "good kitchener boy. salt of the earth. plays the game the right way." you know what i mean?

No, he didn't criticize Stevens, but he had a man-crush on Yzerman too and he seemed to like Messier. In fact, Cherry's love affair with Yzerman goes quite a ways back, he was always pumping him up.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Don Cherry always pumped up Ontario-based player. They really had to do something extremely dirty to get criticized. I dont think he ever criticized marchment either. Anyone remember?

i don't remember specifics, but i feel like he treated marchment like the lowest form of scum, just like ulf samuelsson. remember, cherry hated guys who went after knees, being a bobby orr and then cam neely guy.

and btw, yzerman: also an ontario guy. grew up in ottawa, played junior in peterborough.

No, he didn't criticize Stevens, but he had a man-crush on Yzerman too and he seemed to like Messier. In fact, Cherry's love affair with Yzerman goes quite a ways back, he was always pumping him up.

yeah, cherry loved those guys, no doubt. but he excused messier's dirtiness and yzerman's yappiness by extolling their competitiveness. no excuses had to be made for stevens, by cherry or anyone else. that's the point i'm trying to make. any suggestion that stevens was dirty is revisionist and cuts squarely against his reputation at the time as the most stand-up of stand-up guys, the most honest of honest players. the only bad thing you could ever say about stevens is contract shenanigans, and even then never after '95.

 

[Hobnobs]

i don't remember specifics, but i feel like he treated marchment like the lowest form of scum, just like ulf samuelsson. remember, cherry hated guys who went after knees, being a bobby orr and then cam neely guy.

and btw, yzerman: also an ontario guy. grew up in ottawa, played junior in peterborough.

I remeber when Marchment took out Modano he blamed the whole thing on Modano. So, no, Cherry defended Marchment. He also said that he thought Marchment was one of the best defensemen in the league when he played for the leafs...

 

[Leaf Forever]

I agree with Canadiens 1958, as concussions are the game's more dangerous injury now for the affects don't show for 25-30 years. Knees would be 2nd on the list. Bobby Clarke noted in the last 5 years the game had changed from when he first started. There is little battle along the boards for the puck instead the forechecker comes in like a missile to separate the defenceman from the puck not compete for it. That opens the door for the Steve Downies of the world but getting back to Stevens he was feared so players gave him a wider space for puck movement. The fear came from his strength and vicious hits.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

The difference between Yzerman and Crosby is that Yzerman was a much more classy player at the other aspects of the game.

You never saw Stevie do things like this:

 

[Barnum]

The difference between Yzerman and Crosby is that Yzerman was a much more classy player at the other aspects of the game.

Like how? Like the time he gave all of the Boston Garden the middle finger after a series of cheap shots? Or maybe the time he attacked a fan in the Garden?

Classy guy - Then your classy guy, re-starts a fight that ends up with Jeff Lazaro never being right again, pretty much his career was finished. The crowd is yelling "Steve Yzerman *#^#" because everyone saw Mr Classy start some unnecessary nonsense, Game was over, the Red Wings should have gone home but Mr Classy..... [Mod Edit]



The first part of his career, Mr Classy did not have a great reputation, it wasn't til later that he became a leader.

 

[Barnum]

You never saw Stevie do things like this:

Yeah? See the video I posted.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Yeah? See the video I posted.

I don't think you embedded it correctly. I cannot watch it.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I remeber when Marchment took out Modano he blamed the whole thing on Modano. So, no, Cherry defended Marchment. He also said that he thought Marchment was one of the best defensemen in the league when he played for the leafs...

hmm, that surprises me. but okok so cherry repped for marchment for some reason. that wasn't the point of what i was saying; what don cherry would say was just a hypothetical example to illustrate the general sentiment about stevens. point is: nobody was calling stevens dirty. relative to messier and yzerman, he was the model of class and dignity and honest, clean play.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I don't think you embedded it correctly. I cannot watch it.

pretty sure he's talking about this vid: