Was Jonathan Toews ever the 2nd best centre in the NHL?

[VanIslander]

Was Zetterberg ever the 2nd best center in the NHL?
Nieuwendyk?
Goring?

 

[Fatass]

Was a key player on three Cup winners. He was definitely top two centre. Got to be key in a Cup win to be considered great. Otherwise there’s something missing from a great player. And Toews lead his club to multiple Cups. Nothing missing from him being great.

 

[ESH]

Maybe the year he was voted the 2nd best center in All-Star voting

 

[Fatass]

Was Zetterberg ever the 2nd best center in the NHL?
Nieuwendyk?
Goring?

Were those three even the best centres on the clubs they helped to win the Cup?

 

[Gorskyontario]

Were those three even the best centres on the clubs they helped to win the Cup?

Toews was a solid player and very good center, but the most important player on those hawks teams was Keith. Probably followed by Kane.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Toews was a solid player and very good center, but the most important player on those hawks teams was Keith. Probably followed by Kane.

Don’t forget Bryan Bickell.

 

[sr edler]

While it's true Keith was probably the most overall important piece (or overall best player, or both) on those Cup teams (slightly ahead of Toews), I still remember when he broke out offensively in his Norris season, this offensive breakout happened largely in a context of being in a beneficial situation with his teammates, meaning he suddenly had a lot of new high-skill guys around him there who helped him unleash (such as Kane, Toews, Hossa, et cetera).

Duncan Keith was not yet a star player in the league when Toews and Kane joined the club in 07–08, he was merely a very promising young 30-point D with unknown offensive ceiling. And during said teammates' rookie seasons, he was still a 30-point D.

Still, it's also not even like Keith dragged D things entirely on his own in Chicago later on as well, regarding Cup things. Seabrook was there, Hjalmarsson as well, some other okay-ish guys as well. Those Chicago teams were arguably more stacked on D than on C.

Though there is a portion of hockey fans who try to spin everything against Toews, and everything in favour of Keith and Kane. Example, Seabrook was there but it somehow only benefited Toews (because not very good player, obviously ).

Also, it's pretty funny in this thread someone tried to bash Toews by claiming he had a head-to-head competitive playoff series with peak Henrik Zetterberg. If people now have to stoop to that type of shallow level "insults", it's really gotten pretty bad.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Don’t forget Bryan Bickell.

He outscored Toews in their 2013 run.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

At Toews peak he was definitely #2C only behind Crosby but it was for a very short time span. The guy was a force.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Those Chicago teams were arguably more stacked on D than on C.

Way more stacked on D than ever at C, no question for me.

 

[Gorskyontario]

At Toews peak he was definitely #2C only behind Crosby but it was for a very short time span. The guy was a force.

At no point was he ever better than Malkin except in the minds and hearts of the Canadian media and Chicago fans. There were other centers consistently better than him aswell(Datsyuk, Zetterberg,Bergeron), but Malkin is the most indefensible to debate.

 

[LightningStorm]

Looking back on the 2010-2015 period 10-15 years later, a big thing I think the two way centers win cups crowd (with Toews, Kopitar and Bergeron winning all 6) overlooked is that they each had a d-man who in my opinion was a better player than them (Keith, Doughty, Chara) and, like the centers, were also in their primes. Lets take a look on who the rest of the best centers at this time had on their blueline:

Crosby and Malkin: Letang is good, but not in the tier of those 3. Though MAF is why they struggled in the postseason those years, which, as I said upthread, is a big reason I find him overrated historically. Pens D wasn't as deep either, which is why I think the Hawks would beat them if they ever played in a final during this period.

Stamkos: Hedman would eventually become as great as those 3, but he wasn't there yet. The Bolts D depth at the time is a much worse story.

Sedin: Never played with an elite d-man.

Getzlaf: After the Pronger/Niedermayer period.

Datsyuk/Zetterberg: Lidstrom was near the end/retired.

Needing a true #1C AND #1D to win a cup is a tale as old as time, and as I said, on all 3 teams I thought their best D was better than their best C. Other great C's of that era won cups before and after that period with better support on the blueline, and the Pens served as the exception because having the 2 best C's in the game is obviously a huge outlier.

 

[sr edler]

Way more stacked on D than ever at C, no question for me.

Hah, yeah, I even forgot Brian Campbell was on that first Cup team when I typed that post, that's a pretty nice guy to have on your 2nd pairing. Then they had guys like Oduya and Rozsival as well, who are nice depth guys.

 

[sr edler]

By the way, does anyone have advice on how to reduce the f***ing annoying ads and pop-up ads on this site?

Give them your money and they might remove the most obnoxious ads (?). I was about to post a Mr. Krabs money GIF but I don't even know if you can post GIFs on this site anymore.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Maybe between 2013-2015 he was. He was clutch on team Canada also.

 

[MadLuke]

One issue is that early on the 2010-2015 you have Datsyuk, Malkin if he play, etc...

And the 2013-2015 Getzlaf was really good,lead all center in playoff PPG, only below Crosby-Malkin-Tavares in regular season PPG, second in points.

So maybe not ever at any precise point was Toews clearly the second best but for the larger period the second most effective center, the one you pick, maybe.

 

[Gorskyontario]

One issue is that early on the 2010-2015 you have Datsyuk, Malkin if he play, etc...

And the 2013-2015 Getzlaf was really good,lead all center in playoff PPG, only below Crosby-Malkin-Tavares in regular season PPG, second in points.

So maybe not ever at any precise point was Toews clearly the second best but for the larger period the second most effective center, the one you pick, maybe.

He was a good player on a really good team. He got the best results during that period captaining 3 teams to cups. Realistically he was maybe at best borderline the 5th best center in the league, although his youth would make him more appealing than Datsyuk/Zetterberg for example.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Hah, yeah, I even forgot Brian Campbell was on that first Cup team when I typed that post, that's a pretty nice guy to have on your 2nd pairing. Then they had guys like Oduya and Rozsival as well, who are nice depth guys.

By 2015 the defensive depth fell apart and they were icing an AHL pair (Timmonen was finished) for the last couple rounds. Seabrook had already started to fall off. That was Keith’s finest hour for sure. 2013 was pretty great 1-6 on D and the top four were at its best in 2010.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

By 2015 the defensive depth fell apart and they were icing an AHL pair (Timmonen was finished) for the last couple rounds. Seabrook had already started to fall off. That was Keith’s finest hour for sure. 2013 was pretty great 1-6 on D and the top four were at its best in 2010.

I'd argue that after Keith the D in that span that was the biggest factor was Hjalmarsson. Rock solid, minute eating shut down guy

 

[archangel2]

Nope. Whether or not he boosters like it, that starting point will always be points

Here are the guys who got more pts than him during is career who also played center

Crosby
Malkin
Kopter
Stamkos
Backstrom
Joe Pavelski (who played more C before moving to the wing)
Joe Thornton
Ryan Getzlaf (fun debate would be who was the better between them)
John Taveras
Eric Stall
Patrice Bergeron

I would put Toews over Stall and Backstrom easily. but the others? a couple are a toss up. But Sid, Geno, Stamkos, Thornton, Getzlaf and Bergereon.--They had his skill set but more offensive kick

There is more to life than offensive numbers.

take a look at the list I posted and tell me 11 I posted how many are below him?

 

[yada]

By the way, does anyone have advice on how to reduce the f***ing annoying ads and pop-up ads on this site? About six months ago, or so, it became incredibly annoying.

It's not really an issue on a full-size screen, but on my Surface Pro (which I use at home), the ads are so intrusive that it makes it really difficult to even see the screen. Honestly, it's making it a drag to even use this forum.

(Yes, I re-set the general site settings and set pop-up ads' settings to 'off', but the ads are still popping up.)

Personally i have to view this site using the adblocker internet browser

 

[WarriorofTime]

Nope. Whether or not he boosters like it, that starting point will always be points

Here are the guys who got more pts than him during is career who also played center

Crosby
Malkin
Kopter
Stamkos
Backstrom
Joe Pavelski (who played more C before moving to the wing)
Joe Thornton
Ryan Getzlaf (fun debate would be who was the better between them)
John Taveras
Eric Stall
Patrice Bergeron

I would put Toews over Stall and Backstrom easily. but the others? a couple are a toss up. But Sid, Geno, Stamkos, Thornton, Getzlaf and Bergereon.--They had his skill set but more offensive kick


take a look at the list I posted and tell me 11 I posted how many are below him?

Toews at his peak was a top 15-20 scorer over a decent stretch of time that leaned goal scoring and leaned five on five not powerplay and was a possession, analytic, matchup god. I don’t need a specific number of where he was but the whole backlash always went way too far. 2013 he was definitely hawks mvp (although not playoffs, but the cumulative). Their center depth kinda stunk that year as they were putting old man Handzus with Kane at even strength, Shaw who was more a flex at third line center and then due to injury and such, Bolland dropped to fourth line center. Still one of the most dominant teams ever which is impressive with how much people often give centers all the credit. Speaks to how important and valuable Toews was and how well he performed.

 

[archangel2]

Toews at his peak was a top 15-20 scorer over a decent stretch of time that leaned goal scoring and leaned five on five not powerplay and was a possession, analytic, matchup god. I don’t need a specific number of where he was but the whole backlash always went way too far. 2013 he was definitely hawks mvp (although not playoffs, but the cumulative). Their center depth kinda stunk that year as they were putting old man Handzus with Kane at even strength, Shaw who was more a flex at third line center and then due to injury and such, Bolland dropped to fourth line center. Still one of the most dominant teams ever which is impressive with how much people often give centers all the credit. Speaks to how important and valuable Toews was and how well he performed.

take a look at the list I posted of C who played at the same time as him and you will many that have the same if not better analytical numbers

 

[WarriorofTime]

take a look at the list I posted of C who played at the same time as him and you will many that have the same if not better analytical numbers

So you believe at no period or stretch was Toews a Top 10 center?

 

[Gorskyontario]

Kopitar was also better than Toews.