Was Jonathan Toews ever the 2nd best centre in the NHL?

[Crosby2010]

So we all remember the time when Toews was very much a golden boy in the NHL. Lots to like about him. It all started in the 2007 WJC when Canada won in a shootout in the semis and Toews scored all three goals. His legend started then, and it would be easy to just live off of that sort of hype but it was only the beginning. Cups in 2010, 2013 and 2015. The nickname "Captain Serious" the type of player who was a born winner. Instrumental player on the 2010 and 2014 Olympic teams and the 2016 World Cup team. A perfect example of a player whose true value didn't always show up on the stat sheet. And even then in a rare occurrence it did. In 2013 Toews led the NHL in even strength goals. This was maybe his best season. 48 points in 47 games (shortened season), 2nd team all-star, 4th in Hart voting, Selke winner, Stanley Cup winning captain. Not to mention Chicago was the last team to lead the NHL in points and win the Cup. They had a 24-game unbeaten streak and they were the straw that stirred the drink in the NHL then.

I am going to say for about a 4-5 span he was the best centre in the NHL behind Crosby. Some in the media liked him over Crosby, which was absurd, but to me there was a very good argument that he was slotted in as the 2nd best centre during the 2010-'15 or so era.

Crosby even despite his injuries was #1. Malkin did have a huge 2012 season, but also had some injuries and this was also that bizarre time where the Pens lost some head scratchers in the postseason with much of the blame going on their stars. Stamkos was scoring a lot, but there wasn't that "it" factor like Toews had. Getzlaf would be another name that could pop up as the #2 centre during that time. Either way, I don't think it was an exaggeration nor is it revisionist history that he was at that level in the NHL. It may have helped that there was a bit of a lull in the NHL at this time, reminiscent of the early 2000s where there were less dominant players having big years but either way I truly believe Toews was the 2nd best centre in the NHL for a brief time and it coincided with the Hawks winning Cups.

Lastly, let's remember 2014. Toews was the poster child for winning, and Crosby hadn't won in 5 years and there were those choke jobs the Pens had dealt with recently in the playoffs. The idea was that Crosby is captain of Team Canada at the Olympics. It was the right choice and the obvious one. But even Sid publicly said he personally asked Toews if it was okay. To me I think that says it all right there.

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[WarriorofTime]

Toews 2-way analytic god game in his prime was perhaps overly loved by the "media" types but the internet types never gave him his due in that respect. Pretty much in every area other than powerplay scoring, Toews was elite

 

[Stephen]

I will always defend Toews and Kane by saying they excelled at being great players on great teams that won championships. They won early and often and that’s all you need to know.

Sometimes that’s used against players in one vs one comparisons and player rankings, where guys with help are somehow worse off cause they were with other greats… but great players with great players doing great things is really the benchmark of pro sports.

 

[TLEH]

Without really getting into media narratives and stuff, the analytics tell you that he was the 2nd best center for a period of time, yes. Then of course he fell off faster and the name recognition and winning led to him being overrated for a bit.

 

[LightningStorm]

I'd rank him 5th. 1st is obviously Crosby, and Malkin is definitely 2nd.

Crosby even despite his injuries was #1. Malkin did have a huge 2012 season, but also had some injuries and this was also that bizarre time where the Pens lost some head scratchers in the postseason with much of the blame going on their stars.

Let's just say this stretch is a big reason I find MAF overrated from a historical perspective.

Back to my rankings, Stamkos is 3rd. Prior to his leg injury, it looked like he could rival Ovechkin in Rocket Richard races. Plus he was a much better skater prior to this terrible injury. It's not that he lacked the "it" factor, he just didn't have the cup winning core around him yet.

I always considered Toews in the tier with Kopitar and Bergeron. Selke level defensive scorers who still had enough offense for a 1C. During this period, which was more or less the best of all 3, I'd go Kopitar 4th, Toews 5th, and Getzlaf 6th, and Bergeron 7th.

It may have helped that there was a bit of a lull in the NHL at this time, reminiscent of the early 2000s where there were less dominant players having big years but either way I truly believe Toews was the 2nd best centre in the NHL for a brief time and it coincided with the Hawks winning Cups.

Definitely agree about the lull, in addition to all of my top 3 centers having injuries, which was an argument some used for Toews having a high ranking. Another thing I'd point out in terms of this being a weak period for centers is that of the 7 centers on my list, only Crosby and Getzlaf were definitively even the best player on their own team. Malkin was behind Crosby, Stamkos was 50/50 for who the best on the Bolts was at the time, while I personally rank Doughty, Keith, and Chara above Kopitar, Toews, and Bergeron.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Definitely not, with all due respect to a quality player. But unless that "4-5 span" in the OP represents "minutes" in a playoff game vs. Vancouver, then no...and I don't think it was super close to being the case either.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

nope.

he had a short lived run near the top, but was never above Crosby or Malkin

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Crosby and Malkin were the two best centers in the league from 2007 until 2015

 

[hawksrule]

He was never as good as Crosby/Malkin/Bergeron. There were times he may have been the best in the next year, so a peak at four.

 

[GlitchMarner]

It was a different time. If he was at his peak now, would anyone rank him above McDavid, MacKinnon or Matthews? How about Draisaitl?

Two-way centres were among the best and most successful in the early to mid 2010s. That was around the time hockey analytics and advanced stats became a big deal for some people as well. Suddenly many were obsessing over things like Corsi and P/60 as much as if not more than scoring.

There were definitely more talented centres, but he made a strong overall impact and contributed significantly to the success of the most prosperous team of that period.

Personally, I'm not convinced he was any better than Datsyuk, Bergeron or Kopitar. They were all in the same tier.

The offensively-talented and playmaking centres of the time had problems with injuries/consistency and couldn't win the Cup.

People remember Malkin at his best, but he was rarely if ever at his best after 2012. He would constantly miss games as well.

Stamkos suffered that leg injury in 2014 and his team wasn't great between 2010 and 2015.

Joe Thornton was constantly disappointing in the playoffs.

Henrik Sedin couldn't win it all, either.

Then there were guys like Giroux, Backstrom, Getzlaf, Tavares...

If you think deeply and delve into advanced stats, I'm sure you can justify giving him a high ranking... but second in the League at centre may be a stretch... same with third if you put Malkin ahead of him. He was definitely top ten, and just off the top of my head I'd be fine with having him in the top five for that 2010-2015 stretch.

 

[Dingo]

I always considered Zetterberg better than him, especiallly when he kade him have a mental breakdown in the playoffs and had to be consoled by Seabrook.

Crosby, Malkin for sure
Zetterberg, Datsyuk when healthy, Bergeron and Kopitar probably
Stamkos and Giroux, id have to check year by year as i feel there were ups and downs

He was top 10, i dont think top 5 for any great length of time.

Probably have Henrik over him for a spell, and Backstrom for periods, too.

 

[Stephen]

It was a different time. If he was at his peak now, would anyone rank him above McDavid, MacKinnon or Matthews? How about Draisaitl?

Two-way centres were among the best and most successful in the early to mid 2010s. That was around the time hockey analytics and advanced stats became a big deal for some people as well. Suddenly many were obsessing over things like Corsi and P/60 as much as if not more than scoring.

There were definitely more talented centres, but he made a strong overall impact and contributed significantly to the success of the most prosperous team of that period.

Personally, I'm not convinced he was any better than Datsyuk, Bergeron or Kopitar. They were all in the same tier.

The offensively-talented and playmaking centres of the time had problems with injuries/consistency and couldn't win the Cup.

People remember Malkin at his best, but he was rarely if ever at his best after 2012. He would constantly miss games as well.

Stamkos suffered that leg injury in 2014 and his team wasn't great between 2010 and 2015.

Joe Thornton was constantly disappointing in the playoffs.

Henrik Sedin couldn't win it all, either.

Then there were guys like Giroux, Backstrom, Getzlaf, Tavares...

If you think deeply and delve into advanced stats, I'm sure you can justify giving him a high ranking... but second in the League at centre may be a stretch... same with third if you put Malkin ahead of him. He was definitely top ten, and just off the top of my head I'd be fine with having him in the top five for that 2010-2015 stretch.

Two way centers aren’t an artifact of the 2010s. They will always have utility and someday in the foreseeable future someone will win a cup with one leading the way a la Toews.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

No way.

Right place, right time...he has playoff success but that's because of Kane and Keith...not to say Toews didn't play his part because he did.

The whole "better than Crosby?" was a TSN/Pierre McGuire thing that came about during Ovechkin's 30 goal era and Crosby's concussion/neck injuries.

A couple guys fought back on that narrative I still remember an exchange between James Duthie and Bob McKenzie...

(This is just after the Penguins elimination in 2013)

Duthie: Look at Toews, who always delivers in the playoffs.

McKenzie: well no, Toews has 5 goals his last 42 playoff games.

 

[JackSlater]

I think it depends on what sense someone is second best. In the general sense he wasn't in that Crosby and Malkin were always better, in addition to whatever others. If it is narrowed down you could make the case that Toews was the second best centre in the NHL in the 2013 season where Malkin was banged up, but really he's right there with Datsyuk, Getzlaf, and Stamkos at the time.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I'll add too that the league did him no favors with their over-promotion of him.

Never forget the roundtable discussion featuring all time legends in Gretzky, Orr, Mario, Crosby...and Toews?! That more than anything drives the backlash against him

 

[GlitchMarner]

Two way centers aren’t an artifact of the 2010s. They will always have utility and someday in the foreseeable future someone will win a cup with one leading the way a la Toews.

Two-way centres aren't suddenly insignificant.

However, during the entire 2010s decade, pretty much only teams that had a strong two-way centre won the Cup: Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar, O'Rieilly. Backstrom and Crosby weren't quite at their level defensively but were far from one-dimensional centres when they won their Cups that decade. Plus Crosby had Malkin and Backstrom had Kuznetsov.

This decade Tampa has won twice. Point is a two-way centre, but Kucherov's prolific point production has also contributed greatly to Tampa's Cup wins. COL won with the offensive-minded MacKinnon as their top centre and Vegas had Eichel as their top pivot last year. It seems scoring is translating better into winning this decade. If McDavid wins a Cup or two, this trend may continue (not that he's bad defensively).

 

[Stephen]

Two-way centres aren't suddenly insignificant.

However, during the entire 2010s decade, pretty much only teams that had a strong two-way centre won the Cup: Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar, O'Rieilly. Backstrom and Crosby weren't quite at their level defensively but were far from one-dimensional centres when they won their Cups that decade. Plus Crosby had Malkin and Backstrom had Kuznetsov.

This decade Tampa has won twice. Point is a two-way centre, but Kucherov's prolific point-production has also contributed greatly to Tampa's Cup wins. COL won with the offensive-minded MacKinnon as their top centre and Vegas had Eichel as their top pivot last year. It seems scoring is translating better into winning this decade. If McDavid wins a Cup or two, this trend may continue (not that he's bad defensively).

Eichel is an interesting player. He had a reputation as an all-world, all-skill superstar center but has kind of evolved into a two way, PPG center on Vegas. So he has kind of drifted into Toews territory away from the McDavid, Mackinnon and Matthews type centers in the game.

 

[Sentinel]

Only when Datsyuk wasn't playing.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Great player, but unfortunately he was anointed above his actual contributions by a media that was overzealous for the next "Mr. Canada."

Never top 2 in my opinion, but still a great player who was part of a 3-headed monster that led a dynasty to lots of amazing successes.

 

[MadLuke]

Only when Datsyuk wasn't playing.

Which was quite often after 2010 (he still had some incredible playoff round in him, but never challenged during a full season the number 1 player in the league anymore much from memory)

 

[Sentinel]

Which was quite often after 2010 (he still had some incredible playoff round in him, but never challenged during a full season the number 1 player in the league anymore much from memory)

There is more to life than offensive numbers.

 

[MadLuke]

There is more to life than offensive numbers.

Offensive number or their absence was not mentioned or implied, just game played....

 

[MadLuke]

Was Toews the second best center at playing hockey for a significant amount of time.... (over the Malkin-Crosby-Datsyuk-Getzlaf-Stamkos-Kopitar-Sedin-Zetterberg)

From 2010 to the end of the 2015 playoff, among center he was 5th in even strenght point in the regular season, #1 in plus-minus, number one in playoff points by a large amount winning 3 cups, 2 gold medals mvpish tourneys, his team was the best in the nhl over that time he did it all. Has the best GF% in the league over that stretch

He did the most, was he the best for that ? Not really (almost all season in that stretch you take more than one other center a list of center if your are not the Hawks if they are healthy for a playoff run we can imagine), but he did it.

 

[banks]

Toews is one of the reasons I became a Blackhawks fan. I have 2 Toews jerseys. He's one of my all-time favourite players. And I've met him in real life.

I think there's an argument to be made that he was a top 5 C for stretches. But even I can't make a case that he was #2 behind Crosby for more than a brief stretch. And if I can't be convinced, then almost no one will considering the "Toewsisoverrated" opinion that still permeates since that top 100 selection.

No.

 

[NordiquesForeva]

The answer is a resounding "no" to the question at hand, but imo he was almost certainly a top-5/6 centre for some stretch of his career. Toews is a classic example of a player that did a lot of things well, had no obvious holes in his game, and did a few things at an elite/near-elite level - namely faceoffs, defensive play from the centre position, and forechecking in the o-zone. He wasn't an elite playmaker or scorer of course, and that imo is what makes him only a borderline top-5/6 guy and what keeps him from being in the top-2.

All told, if he was your top centre and surrounded by offensive talent you were in good shape (as is evidenced by Chicago's 3 Stanley Cups), but there is nothing to separate him from 200-foot contemporaries like Zetterberg, Kopitar or Bergeron, let alone obviously better players like Crosby, Malkin, or Datsyuk, or Getzlaf and Stamkos to a lesser extent.