Vincent Damphouse to blame

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PecaFan

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Nov 16, 2002
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me2 said:
That is what I'd love to know. You keep hearing $52m, you never actually see the details.

Burke explained this away on Sportstalk one night a few weeks ago. It had something to do with looking at a new stadium, but applying it to the wrong year, IE before the team had actually moved into that stadium. So they were taking numbers from one year, applying them to the another year, and voila, "missing revenue".
 

mooseOAK*

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Wetcoaster said:
And i have never said that they were so obligated. They do not even share this inforamtion with their partner owners and that is one of the reasons why Levitt did not provide a team by team breakdown but just a global number.

The NHL owners can continue to refuse disclsoure but that will not help a deal get done. You cannot expect the players to simply trust the owners based on what has gone on previously.

If the owners want to tie revenues to salaries then they have to open all the books and give full disclosure with unfettered access as is done in the MLB, NBA and NFL.
The NHL should operate the revenue sharing in the same way as those leagues, for sure. But are the PA's in those leagues tracking every bag of peanuts that is sold? I wouldn't think so.
 

me2

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Wetcoaster said:
The NHL has yet to offer up full disclosure.


If that is true why isn't Goodenow pushing that angle harder? When Milbury says come on down and have a look around, why doesn't Goodenow go? If Milbury then screws around with the books and won't come clean on the real details, its great PR.

Goodenow can't possibly lose by looking at the books. Either he finds $13m+ in extra revenue ($400m league wide) or the owners are exposed for not showing the real books.

How can Goodenow possibly lose? :dunno:
 

Wetcoaster

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me2 said:
If that is true why isn't Goodenow pushing that angle harder? When Milbury says come on down and have a look around, why doesn't Goodenow go? If Milbury then screws around with the books and won't come clean on the real details, its great PR.

Goodenow can't possibly lose by looking at the books. Either he finds $13m+ in extra revenue ($400m league wide) or the owners are exposed for not showing the real books.

How can Goodenow possibly lose? :dunno:
What has Mad Mike got to do with this???????????????
 

Drury_Sakic

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me2 said:
If that is true why isn't Goodenow pushing that angle harder? When Milbury says come on down and have a look around, why doesn't Goodenow go? If Milbury then screws around with the books and won't come clean on the real details, its great PR.

Goodenow can't possibly lose by looking at the books. Either he finds $13m+ in extra revenue ($400m league wide) or the owners are exposed for not showing the real books.

How can Goodenow possibly lose? :dunno:



Thats where the PA has really fugged up...

Almost every move they could make to increase their standing with the fans, they either simply ignore or managed to flub up...

Clearly, they do not see that the Fan support is what is important here.... If we were 100% behind them the owners would be more motivated to deal(well, we could not have forced them to take a crappy deal, but we could have been a bigger force behind getting a deal done sooner rather than later that was fair to the players).....

But I would say that less than 10% of people out there are behind the players in any way shape or form...with about 50% behind the owners.. and the other 40% not really caring..

The PA's PR skills are -100 out of 10!

:banghead:
 

Wetcoaster

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Drury_Sakic said:
Thats where the PA has really fugged up...

Almost every move they could make to increase their standing with the fans, they either simply ignore or managed to flub up...

Clearly, they do not see that the Fan support is what is important here.... If we were 100% behind them the owners would be more motivated to deal(well, we could not have forced them to take a crappy deal, but we could have been a bigger force behind getting a deal done sooner rather than later that was fair to the players).....

But I would say that less than 10% of people out there are behind the players in any way shape or form...with about 50% behind the owners.. and the other 40% not really caring..

The PA's PR skills are -100 out of 10!

:banghead:
Goodenow long ago decided that the PR battle was not winnable so he did not waste his time nor resources.
 

Munchausen

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Wetcoaster said:
Goodenow long ago decided that the PR battle was not winnable so he did not waste his time nor resources.

That seems like a weak argument, considering the PR battle is extremely important when you start with almost no leverage in these negotiations.
 

Wetcoaster

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Munchausen said:
That seems like a weak argument, considering the PR battle is extremely important when you start with almost no leverage in these negotiations.
How does good PR help the NHLPA? And what would it cost in time and resources to try to do something about it?

Many people look at what the players make and shake their heads because they cannot comprehend the numbers - nothing to be done about that.

This is negotiation between two private parties, the public are essentially spectators and have little impact.
 

Wetcoaster

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me2 said:
Milbs has offered Goodenow a come talk about the books.
Source????

Since they are not his books, I fail to see how he could make such an offer.
 

Marconius

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Wetcoaster said:
How does good PR help the NHLPA? And what would it cost in time and resources to try to do something about it?

Many people look at what the players make and shake their heads because they cannot comprehend the numbers - nothing to be done about that.

This is negotiation between two private parties, the public are essentially spectators and have little impact.

Shortsighted at best. You don't think some of the dissension among the ranks of the NHLPA isn't due to local hockey guys, once treated like heros, feeling the wrath of the fan. Virtually everywhere they look, they seem examples of how the majority of the public is becoming more and more angry with them.

These guys have been trained to react to fan support thier entire lives. Anyone who has played a semi competitive sport knows about 'home field advantage' or the crowd being the '6th man.'
 

Wetcoaster

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Marconius said:
Shortsighted at best. You don't think some of the dissension among the ranks of the NHLPA isn't due to local hockey guys, once treated like heros, feeling the wrath of the fan. Virtually everywhere they look, they seem examples of how the majority of the public is becoming more and more angry with them.

These guys have been trained to react to fan support thier entire lives. Anyone who has played a semi competitive sport knows about 'home field advantage' or the crowd being the '6th man.'
I never said I agreed with it - I am simply giving you what Goodenow has said about PR in the past.

It has worked for him up to now.
 

Munchausen

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Wetcoaster said:
How does good PR help the NHLPA? And what would it cost in time and resources to try to do something about it?

Many people look at what the players make and shake their heads because they cannot comprehend the numbers - nothing to be done about that.

This is negotiation between two private parties, the public are essentially spectators and have little impact.

I'm sorry but Goodenow is as guilty as the other side to spin things through the media, therefore he is playing the PR game (just very badly).

And having unconditional fan support would have assured them replacement players would never have flied with the fans if it comes down to this. Now, there's probably fans that will go just to make a point.

PR is the only weapon the players had, so no time and ressources should have been spared to preserve a positive public image throughout negotiations.
 

me2

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Jun 28, 2002
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Wetcoaster said:
Source????
http://www.newsalerts.com/article.php?go:67589


Milbury said he is not angry with the players, but "I'm angry at the union leadership" for "thumbing their nose" when the league offered to open its books to the union to prove its numbers. Milbury said the union should have taken a closer look at financially challenged teams such as the Islanders and Pittsburgh Penguins to get a better sense of the economics. "It's not a myth," he said.


there is one article, there are a more.

Since they are not his books, I fail to see how he could make such an offer.

Well then, take him up on his offer and ask to see the books. If he backs down then expose him as a fraud. Great PR....
 
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Wetcoaster

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me2 said:
http://www.newsalerts.com/article.php?go:67589


Milbury said he is not angry with the players, but "I'm angry at the union leadership" for "thumbing their nose" when the league offered to open its books to the union to prove its numbers. Milbury said the union should have taken a closer look at financially challenged teams such as the Islanders and Pittsburgh Penguins to get a better sense of the economics. "It's not a myth," he said.


there is one article, there are a more.

Well then, take him up on his offer and ask to see the books. If he backs down then expose him as a fraud. Great PR....
The NHL has NEVER offered to open all the team books and those of their corporate entities. Period.
 

Drury_Sakic

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Wetcoaster said:
The NHL has NEVER offered to open all the team books and those of their corporate entities. Period.



Has the NHLPA ever come out at asked to see them?


Again, along the PR standpoint..

ASK..

and if they don't let you see..


Say, "they must be hiding something"


:shakehead

The PA might actually have an argument, or at least a point if they tried to back it up....
 

Wetcoaster

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Drury_Sakic said:
Has the NHLPA ever come out at asked to see them?


Again, along the PR standpoint..

ASK..

and if they don't let you see..


Say, "they must be hiding something"


:shakehead

The PA might actually have an argument, or at least a point if they tried to back it up....
Yes they have, on numerous ocassions. The NHL refuses.
 

Wetcoaster

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Drury_Sakic said:
Link..

:dunno:
If they have, where is the media on this?
Read what Forbes had to say. They are media.
But if there is to be any hope for hockey to return to the ice this season, the league is going to have to show alittle more transparency and disclose all of an owner's source of revenue.
http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2004/1129/124_3.html

Most of the sports "journalists" appear to have difficulties finding their way to the free eats tables - they seem to have scarcely a clue about financial issues. Many still refer to the Levitt Report as an audit or keep repeating Bettman's comment of "super audit". It was nothing of the sort. So how can you expect any analysis.

Russ Conway is one of the few to do it and he trashed the Levitt Report.

Ted Saskin and Andrew Zimablist one of the leading sports economists in the US had this to say to the Toronto Star:
A North American sports business expert said yesterday that he trusts Forbes magazine more than the NHL when it comes to the amount of money the league lost last season.

In its Nov.29 issue, Forbes claims the NHL sustained cumulative losses of $96 million (all figures U.S.) in 2003-04, which represents a huge disparity from the $224 million the league claims it lost. The issue of devastating losses has been at the heart of the league's expressed need for cost certainty and is one of the major battlegrounds in its labour dispute with the players, which will enter its 60th day tomorrow.

The players, skeptical of the owners' claimed losses all along, have an ally in Andrew Zimbalist, an economics professor at Smith College in Northampton, Mass., and the author of the book Baseball and Billions.

"It's impossible to tell you whether the real number is $96 million or $224 million," Zimbalist said, "but from what I know about how manipulatable the numbers are and the NHL's behaviour over the past couple of years, I'd be inclined to say it's a lot closer to $96 million than it is to $224 million."

The NHL Players' Association gave the report an enthusiastic endorsement while the league dismissed it as ill-informed and inaccurate.

NHLPA senior director Ted Saskin, in a release, said "the independence and integrity of Forbes is unquestionable" and its' analysis and valuations are used by NHL owners and their investment bankers when they buy and sell teams.

The article alleged the discrepancy is due to the league's penchant for under-reporting revenues, a claim backed up by both the NHLPA and Zimbalist, who said it is much easier for teams that own their buildings and broadcasting facilities to transfer revenues.

"It is no surprise that Forbes found the NHL has vastly overstated its losses by not including all of the revenues earned by NHL teams," Saskin said. "We agree with Forbes' conclusion that the NHL should show more transparency and disclose all of an owner's sources of revenue in their financial reports. We have been saying the same thing for many years."
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...835&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064

Here is Goodenow:
"We have consistently stated that one critical issue of disagreement between the NHLPA and the League on finances is how to define the complete business of owning an NHL franchise, and how to address the significant inconsistencies contained in the NHL's voluntary and unaudited URO reporting process," said Goodenow. "At the outset it is clear the Levitt report, commissioned by the League, is fundamentally flawed when the author "elects" to define hockey revenues on the same basis as used in the NBA and NFL for defining revenues in their salary cap systems.

"We were given access to the UROs (Unified Report of Operations ) for 30 clubs, but were only able to conduct a thorough review of four NHL clubs. On those four clubs alone we found just over $52 million in hockey related revenues and benefits not reported in the League's voluntary and unaudited URO process. If we are given similar access to all of the other individual teams' financial information, presumably used in the Levitt report, we will be in a position to provide further comment."

Goodenow was incorrect in this initial assessment given just after the release of the Levitt Report to the extent that Levitt never did have "access to all of the teams' individual financial information" - Goodenow's presumption was in error. Once you carefully analyse the Levitt Report and read the notes attached thereto it is clear that Levitt never had access to the teams books nor those of the related corporate entities - he used the URO's.

Here is what the NHLPA did when doing the four team review in 1999 and 2000. Bear in mid they were not given access to the books:

"We went and requested further information that spoke to a lot of the related entities and disclosed a lot of revenue sources that clearly were not being counted in the URO process," NHLPA senior director Ted Saskin told The Sporting News. "Just on those four teams alone, we saw a swing of $52 million toward profitability. That's only on four out of 30 teams.

As Russ Conway says:
Bettman has repeatedly referred to the report as "a superaudit," implying its findings can be taken to the bank.

In fact, it is not an audit.

Levitt himself calls the report an "independent review."

Richard Delgaudio, a professor of accounting and auditing at Merrimack College in North Andover who is a certified public accountant and nationally known lecturer on accounting, explained the difference between an audit and a review.

"An audit implies that you look at documentation and source documentation," he said. "A review is when you just kind of look things over to see if it seems right."

Delgaudio is one of several experts who examined the Levitt report for The Eagle-Tribune. They did not question the work that went into the findings, but said the report was clearly not an audit, let alone a superaudit.

"If anybody calls this a superaudit, you give them my number," said Nelson Blinn, a 36-year certified public accountant from Haverhill and member of the Banknorth auditing committee. "This is absolutely, unconditionally not an audit. To pass it off as one is nonsense."

The Levitt report largely relies on audited financial reports supplied by the NHL teams themselves.

Blinn said that was "another area of concern."

"If you're an accountant working for a team or working for a company related in some way with the team, you're working for the same owner. That's who pays you, so you've got his best interests in mind."

Blinn said if an independent auditor did the work, "dollars to doughnuts, you'd get altogether different numbers."

The Levitt report authors said they verified the team audits independently.

Another problem was that not all the teams reported hockey revenue the same way.

For business and tax purposes, almost every NHL club operates under an "umbrella" of inter-related companies and trusts that control the myriad streams of revenue -- gate receipts, concessions, arena advertising, merchandise, luxury suite rentals, broadcasting rights and more.

For example, money from food concessions at Bruins games doesn't go to the Bruins but to a separate company controlled by team owner Jeremy Jacobs. Rink-board advertising money goes to another Jacobs company.

Twenty-two of the 30 NHL clubs play in arenas that are least 50 percent "owned, operated or controlled" by either the team, an affiliated business or related-party.

When the Levitt report was done, four teams -- the Bruins, New York Rangers, New Jersey Devils and Philadelphia Flyers -- also had an ownership interest in the cable TV companies that broadcast their games.

"Each entity, they include different things in their hockey revenue," Delgaudio said. "They may have subsidiary companies that account for the signage income or the television income and all that.

"You'd have to look at each one individually and make sure they were recognizing the revenues exactly the same as your definition. And if they didn't, you'd have to make adjustments for it."

The authors of the Levitt report say they did make the required adjustments and were able to account for all hockey revenue, no matter how it was generated or which subsidiary it flowed through.

But the benchmark they used to make those adjustments raises questions.

The benchmark was total paid attendance to all events at the team-controlled arenas where most NHL cubs play. That was the method used to separate "hockey" revenue from money generated by other arena events and affiliated businesses. NHL teams, TicketMaster and other sources provided the attendance figures.
.......
Delgaudio, the Merrimack College accounting professor, said it would have made more sense to consult with the players before the Levitt report was done.

"Because unless they agree with your definition of hockey revenue, what's the sense of doing it?" Delgaudio said.

"You're setting up the rules yourself, without the other person or the other entity agreeing, in this case the Players Association. And then coming up with that number and saying, 'See.' ...

"So the process didn't solve anything. It's one-sided. They used their own rules in coming up with a conclusion."

Here is a much more in-depth criticism of the Levitt methodolgy and the fact he did not go through the books:
In a recent issue of The Hockey News, Bill Daly defended the Arthur Levitt report by asking all critics to read it first. Perhaps Daly should've asked his boss Gary Bettman to read it first -- Bettman, in the news conference introducing the report, said, "Actually, we thought the percentage of gross revenue taken up by player salaries was 76%, he [Levitt] said 75%."

Actually, he said no such thing. Levitt said 75% of net revenue, not gross revenue, goes toward total player costs, not just salaries. These are significant differences. What the NHL calls net revenue (a measure it invented all for itself that comes closest to what everyone calls gross profit) is gross revenue net of direct costs -- except for player salaries, as direct a cost as there is for a hockey operation. Other costs, such as travel expenses, insurance, social security, and the like, make up part of the 75% Bettman incorrectly called "player salaries" -- Levitt even includes minor league salaries, which would be fine if minor league revenues were included, but they were not.

Actually, I take it back -- Levitt didn't write "gross revenue" but he did say it. When asked quite plainly during the press conference introducing his report, "Can you tell me what the gross revenues of the League actually equal," Levitt responded, "two billion". But he probably just misspoke in the heat of the Q and A.

And the very next question? "Can you tell me what comes under the universe of player costs? I assume that's more than just what they are paying in salary." Deferring to his lieutenant Lynn Turner, the response was, "salary and bonuses, benefits and other payments including pension benefits, CBA monies, those are the type of costs that are all included in the player costs." No mention of travel expenses, insurance payments for injured players, minor league salaries, NHL award payments (that's part of what he meant by "CBA monies") -- those might have prompted additional questions.

The truth is, the NHL doesn't want anyone to read the report, and doesn't expect anyone to. The whole world parrots their net revenue of $1.996 billion, player costs of $1.494 billion, and the 75% ratio between the two without understanding of what those terms mean. The NHL even created its own web site for CBA issues that quotes Daly's letter to THN challenging critics to read Levitt's report, the transcript of Bettman's introductory press conference with its misstatement about player cost ratio, the transcript of Levitt's introductory press conference with its misstatement about gross revenues, and the full report itself.

The NHL attempted to bolster its case for a salary cap by hiring former SEC chairman Levitt to audit the league's finances for 2002-03. Despite Bettman's misreading, Levitt did indeed bolster the NHL's case, reporting $273 million in operational losses, additional losses of $100 million in interest payments (a non-operational cost), and a player cost ratio he claims is out of whack with other leagues.

That's $273 million in operational losses -- not true earnings after accounting for interest, tax, depreciation, and amortization (except for the $100 million selectively reported for one type of interest) -- for hockey operations as stand-alone entities, not including the joint operations at least 22 teams enjoy with related business entities like arenas, other sports franchises, and media networks. And that's 75% of net revenue of nearly $2 billion (aka gross profit), not gross revenue, going for total player costs, not just salaries.

Net revenue is not a term you will find in any accounting glossary. The closest you'll come is net sales, allowing deduction for returns, discounts, and undeliverable merchandise from gross revenue. Gross profit, the closest accounting term to the NHL's net revenue, is net sales minus the actual cost of goods sold -- for a hockey operation, the cost of food sold by concessions, for example. The NHL goes beyond that, deducting every direct cost from gross revenue, not just cost of goods sold (to extend the concession example, the cost of labor).

Look at any financial report for any company in the world, and you will not see anything resembling what the NHL calls net revenue (you'll find reports that show net revenue in the sense of net sales). Every other company in the world wants to maximize revenue, and then account for cost, not understate revenues and overstate a single expense category, as the NHL does for public consumption (their actual books have still not been scrutinized in full by anyone, including Levitt).

No surprise, despite his so-called independence, that Levitt came within $12 million of the league's own loss declaration and within 1% of its player cost ratio. But me, I'm a diehard skeptic, especially when nearly a hundred owners each worth hundreds of millions or billions of dollars cry poverty over less than $300 million -- less than the total amount they kicked in to help themselves weather a lockout. So I read the report, in detail (even before Daly exhorted me to -- my article originally started with the sixth paragraph, the others prepended in response to Daly). And I read other documents the report refers to, such as the NBA and NFL Collective Bargaining Agreements (CBAs).

And I hate to say it, but I come away believing Levitt has performed a conscious, if completely legitimate, sleight of hand, designed first, last, and always to support the NHL's claims, not test them.
....
So what are we, in the final analysis, supposed to make of all this? Bill Daly tells us to read the report before criticizing it, yet Gary Bettman misquotes the key finding in the report, which is then universally parrotted by people who clearly did not read the report. Daly tells us that at minimum the report should lay to rest the NHLPA's claim that the NHL's finances are unaudited, even though Levitt is clear in his report that not every team's finances were audited and that team audits are not likely to match the UROs, and is clear in his overall philosophy that auditors tend not to be as independent as they are supposed to be in order to ensure their future employment.

Levitt tells us at least twice, with no equivocation, per his assignment, that the URO instructions for 2002-03 were adequate and the teams complied with them, but tells us too that he corrected inadequacies in the 2001-02 URO before sending the 2002-03 URO out to the teams, and that he corrected results reported by the teams. Levitt tells us that he "would neither underwrite as a banker any of these ventures nor invest a dollar of [his] own personal money in a business which appears to be heading south."

And yet, five teams have changed hands during or since the doom and gloom season his report covers, five others have been bought since 2000 (salary escalation already well under way by then), and an eleventh team (Toronto) has had significant changes to its capital structure and controlling interest due to a major equity transaction. Daly tries to explain that away by saying, "Recent investors in NHL clubs have invested at significantly discounted (even depressed) values." In other words, they have done what smart investors always do -- buy low, hoping to one day sell high. But the former SEC chairman, stockbroker, and economic development chief, who should know about the concept of buying undervalued assets, wouldn't "invest a dollar" in this business.

It's like watching clothes spin endlessly in a dryer -- as long as no one actually stops the spin to take a cold hard look at the laundry in the harsh glare of the public eye, the truth remains safely hidden and the spinmeisters have done their job.
http://ordinaryleastsquare.typepad.com/dubi/2004/03/reading_compreh.html
 

Russian Fan

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Wetcoaster said:

Why do you post many web links like that Wetcoaster , you know that everything that is not related to the NHLCBAnews.com or close to Bettman/Daly are just plain lied [/end of Sarcasm]
 
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