Player Discussion: Ville Heinola

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Jun 15, 2013
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I really think some people are overdramatizing the Heinola situation.

I don't think the past season really slowed his development or will have any long-lasting impact. He still will benefit from getting more speed through physical training and working on his skating in the off-season.

Agreed.

For those that think Heinola "wasted away in the press box" all year, the reality is he appeared in 50 games, on par with what he's played in previous year, but also at a much higher level including the WJC-U20, Liiga Division 1, the AHL & NHL.

Chevy said as much in his last presser.
 
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Chevy mentionned that between Liga, WJC and moose, ville played 50+ games last year - which is the most he's ever played.

While I agree with Chevy in theory that Heinola played a lot of hockey, sometimes he is clearly talking out of his ass.

Since the Jets drafted him, he's played less hockey than he ever has.

Screen Shot 2021-06-17 at 12.28.39 PM.png


And his assertion that sliding Heinola's ELC "never entered his mind" is bullshit of the highest quality .
 

LowLefty

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Size and strength are the only advantages, and maybe slap shot.

Heinola is smarter, a much better passer, quicker. Stanley still has major problems making an outlet pass under duress.

I think the talk of him getting faster is overblown tbh. Sure, getting quicker is never a bad thing but he is going to be quick on his edges and quick mentally and decision making wise which is more important than top speed.

Heinola is likely a better player than Stanley, just not given the opportunity yet. They fill very different roles though and Paul is clearly more comfortable with one type of defensemen than the other.


There are differences in their games -
I don't see Stan having any issues making outlet passes - especially for a first year dman
Ville also had trouble with that same type of pass at times - so I do not see one much better than the other in this area,

Mo wants to balance the D core - he has the smaller skilled guys already there - he now needs to replace a few of the heavier guys with size / skill.
So in a way, yes he does prefer the bigger Dmen - because that's what he needs right now. But I think he'd like to do it with guys at a higher skill level. And that would likely be the same take any coach would have in the same situation.
If he preferred lumbering giants out there, you wouldn't see JoMo and Pionk playing the minutes they play - as for larger players, just because he plays what he has, doesn't mean he likes what he has.

This is where the discussion usually shifts to "why isn't he playing the rookies over the low talent guys?" Most likely because he understands. development and patience with a team that is based on D&D - which a lot of fans do not.
 

JetsWillFly4Ever

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There are differences in their games -
I don't see Stan having any issues making outlet passes - especially for a first year dman
Ville also had trouble with that same type of pass at times - so I do not see one much better than the other in this area,

Mo wants to balance the D core - he has the smaller skilled guys already there - he now needs to replace a few of the heavier guys with size / skill.
So in a way, yes he does prefer the bigger Dmen - because that's what he needs right now. But I think he'd like to do it with guys at a higher skill level. And that would likely be the same take any coach would have in the same situation.
If he preferred lumbering giants out there, you wouldn't see JoMo and Pionk playing the minutes they play - as for larger players, just because he plays what he has, doesn't mean he likes what he has.

This is where the discussion usually shifts to "why isn't he playing the rookies over the low talent guys?" Most likely because he understands. development and patience with a team that is based on D&D - which a lot of fans do not.
If you think Stanley is as good at breaking out of the zone as Heinola is, we are not watching the same sport.

Morrissey isn't a skill defensemen. If anything his offensive skill has been minimized at the NHL level. Now whether it just didn't translate or was coached out of him is up to interpretation. The only skill defensemen we have is Pionk.
 

Whileee

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While I agree with Chevy in theory that Heinola played a lot of hockey, sometimes he is clearly talking out of his ass.

Since the Jets drafted him, he's played less hockey than he ever has.

View attachment 447380

And his assertion that sliding Heinola's ELC "never entered his mind" is bullshit of the highest quality .
It's almost like there was a pandemic this year, or something. Not many players have played as much this season as previous seasons. Still, 50 games is decent for Heinola.
 
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JetsUK

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There are differences in their games -
I don't see Stan having any issues making outlet passes - especially for a first year dman
Ville also had trouble with that same type of pass at times - so I do not see one much better than the other in this area,

Mo wants to balance the D core - he has the smaller skilled guys already there - he now needs to replace a few of the heavier guys with size / skill.
So in a way, yes he does prefer the bigger Dmen - because that's what he needs right now. But I think he'd like to do it with guys at a higher skill level. And that would likely be the same take any coach would have in the same situation.
If he preferred lumbering giants out there, you wouldn't see JoMo and Pionk playing the minutes they play - as for larger players, just because he plays what he has, doesn't mean he likes what he has.

This is where the discussion usually shifts to "why isn't he playing the rookies over the low talent guys?" Most likely because he understands. development and patience with a team that is based on D&D - which a lot of fans do not.

Plenty here to discuss. I agree that any experienced NHL coach is gonna know the difference between big, slow unskilled and big, quick and skilled -- and will prefer the latter, all things considered. If the choice is between Hedman and Beaulieu, PoMo will go with Hedman all day long.

The problem is that we don't have a Hedman for him to choose anymore, and we aren't getting one. So he has to build his pairings from a mix of PMD talent, size and thee much smaller pool of size + skill available. Under PMD talent we have Pionk, DeMelo, Heinola, JMo and likely Chisholm in the distance. Under size we have Boo and maybe Poolman, plus whomever they bring in as depth. Under size + (some) skill, we have Stanley and likely Samberg, with Kovacevic as depth and Gawanke in the distance.

I'm a longtime booster of Biiiiig Logan -- he's smart, he works hard, he is a sneaky good passer, and when he can get his shot on net he's a sometime threat from the point. But he is nowhere near Heinola, IMO, when it comes to zone exits and entries and the ability to read the play and be a step or two ahead of it. He doesn't have Heinola's deceptive skating and passing, and he has much less of the modern PMD's 4-way mobility. Which is fine -- they have different skillsets for different roles. But I don't think Stanley ever gives you the puck retrieval, distribution and PP quarterbacking that Heinola is already able to do, and I don't think he has Heinola's top-4, maybe even top 2 upside. We've seem Heinola do it at the WJC, we saw him dominate in the AHL, we've seen it on the Jets -- and he'll only get better. In fact, I think he'll be at least as good and likely better as a PMD than JMo in short order. You don't trade that for a Ristolainen, busted-up McCabe, Olesiak, etc.

And being 6' 7'" in a speed-based sport has its disadvantages. Stanley has great reach but his in-tight skating still needs work, because he's got a giant body to move in close spaces -- he was very heavily sheltered this season, playing few to no minutes in close game-states, where the Jets were even, or leading/trailing by a goal, suggesting that they don't yet trust him to be an asset in those situations. Heinola isn't going to suddenly grow 7-8 inches and be able to do all the big D things that Stanley can, but he can gain position on opponents, strip or retrieve the puck and turn it up ice quickly and decisively, minimizing the amount of fire-drill chaos time that we've seen for years now. He brings something that the team really needs and doesn't have, just as Samberg with his blend of size, strength, positioning and calm, also should.

I guess I'm not sure that the big vs small thing is very helpful -- I know this is not the point you're making @LowLefty -- because if you are controlling the puck in your end you don't really need a core of huge crease-clearers to gain control of it. MTL has some size and grit but they also have a load of forwards who are defensively capable and committed. The Jets def need new pieces there, but another DeMelo or two plus what we have already is likely to be better, I think, than 1 strong and very expensive RHD obtained through the loss of Heinola or Samberg.

The Jets aren't finding another golden-age D corps like they had in 2016-18. But they didn't win the Cup or even the conference then either. So maybe a stronger D made up of 4-5 2nd pairing-quality players, plus a Heinola or ? at the top of his game, and a renewed commitment to strong team defence, will be the next big leap. And while I'd be delighted for a new coaching staff and new systems/structures to be installed to take that team forward, I think you need the players first, then a correct assessment of them and then a suite of systems designed around that personnel.
 
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It's almost like there was a pandemic this year, or something. Not many players have played as much this season as previous seasons. Still, 50 games is decent for Heinola.

Chevy's comments aren't pandemic related. He was trying to point out that Europeans as a rule play significantly less games that their junior & pro contemporaries do across the pond. As a rule that's true, but not in Heinola's case.

Since he was 15 he's played between 50-75+ games each season, often playing at three levels of club hockey while also playing internationally.

So 53 games last year & 50 this season aren't the most he's ever played, but rather the least.

Regardless he's still playing a lot of hockey. My point isn't that he's not, but rather that Chevy's explanation of why this was wasn't well thought through.
 
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boydkc

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Yep. Fans clamor for draft and develop but don't want the develop part. Samberg needed it. Heinola - I'll give you he should've been playing in the AHL at least instead of sitting on the taxi squad, but I think plugging him in on the 2nd pairing saying that he's ready for it is a but premature.
Phil Housley went from High school hockey in Minnesota to the NHL and he did ok. I compare Heinola to Housley with a little bit of Numminen. Sitting in the stands watching on a team with defenceman like the jets had is ridiculous in every way. Absolutely stupid stupid stupid.
 
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boydkc

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Stanley has a couple of major advantages over Ville - the obvious two are size and strength which still come in handy when playing D in this league.
Ville is small and not very quick - and that's a huge disadvantage.
Ville's advantage is his smarts and ability to move the puck - but after watching Stan, who is no slouch in this area, the gap has narrowed.

I hope Ville can put on a little muscle and add more quickness to his game - because he'll need it if he wants to break into even this D lineup.
Stanley takes the slot over Ville any day by any coach - that could change but that's where they are right now.
Stanley is not half the defenceman that Heinola is give your head a shake. Stanley will never be more than a 6-8 defenceman. Heinola will be a #1-2 defenceman in the NHL soon. How he was treated by the jets organization this past season was disgusting.
 

Whileee

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Phil Housley went from High school hockey in Minnesota to the NHL and he did ok. I compare Heinola to Housley with a little bit of Numminen. Sitting in the stands watching on a team with defenceman like the jets had is ridiculous in every way. Absolutely stupid stupid stupid.
Housley was an all-world skater. Heinola got a stretch of games as an 18 year old, and it was pretty clear he wasn't ready.
 

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While I agree with Chevy in theory that Heinola played a lot of hockey, sometimes he is clearly talking out of his ass.

Since the Jets drafted him, he's played less hockey than he ever has.

View attachment 447380

And his assertion that sliding Heinola's ELC "never entered his mind" is bullshit of the highest quality .

I dont think its BS at all. It's pretty simple. Maurice doesnt like Heinola half as much as the fans do. This isnt some conspiracy, its just him deferring to the coach...
 

Flair Hay

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Stanley is not half the defenceman that Heinola is give your head a shake. Stanley will never be more than a 6-8 defenceman. Heinola will be a #1-2 defenceman in the NHL soon. How he was treated by the jets organization this past season was disgusting.

I tend to disagree here. How Stanley was treated by our own fans was disgusting.

I love Ville's potential too, but patience is huge for developing defensemen. Good chance he is close to ready but Maurice likes Samberg and Stanley better.

Get ready for it, you're not allowed to be surprised...
 
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I dont think its BS at all. It's pretty simple. Maurice doesnt like Heinola half as much as the fans do. This isnt some conspiracy, its just him deferring to the coach...

There's no conspiracy in simple contract management and it's not simply fans here that picked up on Heinola's usage after making the Jets out of training camp the year prior.

Chevy fielded at least two direct questions from reporters in his year-ender on the topic with him having to repeat himself to deny future contract status had anything to do with Heinola's usage. In his defence, he'd never admit to this and it was a stupid question from reporters who should have expected the answer they got.

It would have been far more believable had he not said "believe it or not, it never crossed my mind," which is ludicrous statement for a GM with his roots in cap management to make.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Paul said Ville needs to get faster at his size. Not sure I agree Ville needs to get faster but that wouldn’t hurt.

It is another one of Paul's biases. Smaller guys have to be fast. He doesn't seem to notice effectiveness.
Good thing he didn't coach the Oilers in 79/80. :sarcasm: :laugh:
The Great One would have spent the next 3 seasons in the minors or the press box. :laugh:
 

Whileee

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It is another one of Paul's biases. Smaller guys have to be fast. He doesn't seem to notice effectiveness.
Good thing he didn't coach the Oilers in 79/80. :sarcasm: :laugh:
The Great One would have spent the next 3 seasons in the minors or the press box. :laugh:
Well, it's not like the combination of speed and size is irrelevant to performance.

Of course it's about performance, but I think Maurice has been pretty clear that he understands the difference. He's said on several occasions that it's not just speed per se, but how quickly a player processes the game and makes plays. But since that doesn't fit the narrative about Maurice, those quotes never seem to be incorporated.

Meanwhile, I don't understand why so many seem so bent out of shape that Maurice said Heinola doesn't need to get bigger, but would benefit from being faster. It's a fair assessment, especially if the idea is that he's going to be a too 4 D.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Well, it's not like the combination of speed and size is irrelevant to performance.

Of course it's about performance, but I think Maurice has been pretty clear that he understands the difference. He's said on several occasions that it's not just speed per se, but how quickly a player processes the game and makes plays. But since that doesn't fit the narrative about Maurice, those quotes never seem to be incorporated.

Meanwhile, I don't understand why so many seem so bent out of shape that Maurice said Heinola doesn't need to get bigger, but would benefit from being faster. It's a fair assessment, especially if the idea is that he's going to be a too 4 D.

It also doesn't fit the narrative about Heinola. He may not have great top end speed but he has quickness, especially mental quickness.

Of course he would benefit from being faster. So would Ehlers and McDavid. And it wouldn't hurt him to be a little bigger and stronger either.
 

Whileee

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It also doesn't fit the narrative about Heinola. He may not have great top end speed but he has quickness, especially mental quickness.

Of course he would benefit from being faster. So would Ehlers and McDavid. And it wouldn't hurt him to be a little bigger and stronger either.
I'm not sure what the controversy is.

But then again, I've said myself that I think Heinola could use better speed to be more effective at the NHL, so it didn't seem like an unwarranted assessment.

I thought he was faster this season than last, and the speed allowed him to really excel at the AHL level because it allowed him to pull away from fore-checkers when he had a step, and he was able to recover defensively, allowing him to have more risk in his game.

Adding more speed would allow him to be more effective against NHL forwards.
 

sipowicz

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Stanley is not half the defenceman that Heinola is give your head a shake. Stanley will never be more than a 6-8 defenceman. Heinola will be a #1-2 defenceman in the NHL soon. How he was treated by the jets organization this past season was disgusting.

Wow, thanks Kreskin!
 
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Mortimer Snerd

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I'm not sure what the controversy is.

But then again, I've said myself that I think Heinola could use better speed to be more effective at the NHL, so it didn't seem like an unwarranted assessment.

I thought he was faster this season than last, and the speed allowed him to really excel at the AHL level because it allowed him to pull away from fore-checkers when he had a step, and he was able to recover defensively, allowing him to have more risk in his game.

Adding more speed would allow him to be more effective against NHL forwards.

More speed is always better, but there is such a thing as enough speed. I think quickness is usually more important. And a lot of 'quickness' is mental. Good decisions quickly. No hesitation. Etc. These are the areas where Heinola is supposed to excel. In his limited NHL play he has had enough speed.

What exactly did Maurice say? I responded to a quote of him saying that Heinola needed more speed to play in the NHL. That is a lot different than saying more speed would be a good thing.
 

Whileee

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More speed is always better, but there is such a thing as enough speed. I think quickness is usually more important. And a lot of 'quickness' is mental. Good decisions quickly. No hesitation. Etc. These are the areas where Heinola is supposed to excel. In his limited NHL play he has had enough speed.

What exactly did Maurice say? I responded to a quote of him saying that Heinola needed more speed to play in the NHL. That is a lot different than saying more speed would be a good thing.
It was a bit of an awkward quote, but I think it was something like "Ville doesn't need to get bigger or stronger, he needs to get faster". I don't have any problem with that assessment. If he's going to be an impact player in the top-4, I think he could use a bit more speed.

The good news is that he certainly seemed to improve his speed in the past year or so, and I guess that he probably has potential to improve further with a bit more physical training and technique.
 
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LowLefty

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Stanley is not half the defenceman that Heinola is give your head a shake. Stanley will never be more than a 6-8 defenceman. Heinola will be a #1-2 defenceman in the NHL soon. How he was treated by the jets organization this past season was disgusting.

Shake your own head - your take is over the top and based in a kid that hasn't proven himself in the NHL - yet.
You don't know where Ville is going to end up any more than I do - and basing it on the fact that he is a good puck mover, is not enough.

I want to see him in a heavy game where we need guys that can strip pucks and take the man on occasion - he's too small at this point and unless he gets bigger / stronger, he's another offensive D man when we need more defense.

There' s a lot of love and speculation on this board about this guy - fine by me but calling him out as twice the dman Stanley is?
 

LowLefty

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Plenty here to discuss. I agree that any experienced NHL coach is gonna know the difference between big, slow unskilled and big, quick and skilled -- and will prefer the latter, all things considered. If the choice is between Hedman and Beaulieu, PoMo will go with Hedman all day long.

The problem is that we don't have a Hedman for him to choose anymore, and we aren't getting one. So he has to build his pairings from a mix of PMD talent, size and thee much smaller pool of size + skill available. Under PMD talent we have Pionk, DeMelo, Heinola, JMo and likely Chisholm in the distance. Under size we have Boo and maybe Poolman, plus whomever they bring in as depth. Under size + (some) skill, we have Stanley and likely Samberg, with Kovacevic as depth and Gawanke in the distance.

I'm a longtime booster of Biiiiig Logan -- he's smart, he works hard, he is a sneaky good passer, and when he can get his shot on net he's a sometime threat from the point. But he is nowhere near Heinola, IMO, when it comes to zone exits and entries and the ability to read the play and be a step or two ahead of it. He doesn't have Heinola's deceptive skating and passing, and he has much less of the modern PMD's 4-way mobility. Which is fine -- they have different skillsets for different roles. But I don't think Stanley ever gives you the puck retrieval, distribution and PP quarterbacking that Heinola is already able to do, and I don't think he has Heinola's top-4, maybe even top 2 upside. We've seem Heinola do it at the WJC, we saw him dominate in the AHL, we've seen it on the Jets -- and he'll only get better. In fact, I think he'll be at least as good and likely better as a PMD than JMo in short order. You don't trade that for a Ristolainen, busted-up McCabe, Olesiak, etc.

And being 6' 7'" in a speed-based sport has its disadvantages. Stanley has great reach but his in-tight skating still needs work, because he's got a giant body to move in close spaces -- he was very heavily sheltered this season, playing few to no minutes in close game-states, where the Jets were even, or leading/trailing by a goal, suggesting that they don't yet trust him to be an asset in those situations. Heinola isn't going to suddenly grow 7-8 inches and be able to do all the big D things that Stanley can, but he can gain position on opponents, strip or retrieve the puck and turn it up ice quickly and decisively, minimizing the amount of fire-drill chaos time that we've seen for years now. He brings something that the team really needs and doesn't have, just as Samberg with his blend of size, strength, positioning and calm, also should.

I guess I'm not sure that the big vs small thing is very helpful -- I know this is not the point you're making @LowLefty -- because if you are controlling the puck in your end you don't really need a core of huge crease-clearers to gain control of it. MTL has some size and grit but they also have a load of forwards who are defensively capable and committed. The Jets def need new pieces there, but another DeMelo or two plus what we have already is likely to be better, I think, than 1 strong and very expensive RHD obtained through the loss of Heinola or Samberg.

The Jets aren't finding another golden-age D corps like they had in 2016-18. But they didn't win the Cup or even the conference then either. So maybe a stronger D made up of 4-5 2nd pairing-quality players, plus a Heinola or ? at the top of his game, and a renewed commitment to strong team defence, will be the next big leap. And while I'd be delighted for a new coaching staff and new systems/structures to be installed to take that team forward, I think you need the players first, then a correct assessment of them and then a suite of systems designed around that personnel.

Too much here to get into in any detail but it all leads to what we both think we need right now on D -
Stanley has shown a lot of poise and decent skill for a young Dman - I believe his growth continues and he doesn't need to be fast / quick with that size because it rarely happens.
There's another really tall Dman that did well in this league - he was also slow, didn't have the sparkle the lightweight puck movers have, but he was very effective.

We can break down all the points for Ville and Stan and we're back where we started - I want to see more capable beef on the blue line - it's obvious we need it.
Adding anther small puck mover is nice - but it's not the priority right now - IMO.

And it's not big vs small - it's both. But you need to get the mix right in order to balance out the pairings.
 

LowLefty

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If you think Stanley is as good at breaking out of the zone as Heinola is, we are not watching the same sport.

Morrissey isn't a skill defensemen. If anything his offensive skill has been minimized at the NHL level. Now whether it just didn't translate or was coached out of him is up to interpretation. The only skill defensemen we have is Pionk.

Here's what I think -
Stan moves the puck well - and he's also able to retrieve it, break up physical plays, and stop things in their tracks around the net and along the walls
And if you don't do those things well, you don't get a lot of opportunity to "break out".

JoMo is fine when you pair him up with the right guy - he's already shown that. Yes, he is a skilled dman but he needs support like any pairing would.
 
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Bob E

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Calling Heinola a ‘small’ dman is a bit telling to me. With the emphasis for bigger dmen in these playoffs it seems to be top of mind for PoMo. Teams with bigger puck movers on the back end have had success preventing opponents from camping in front of their net for screens and deflections.

It would not surprise me to see Heinola moved in a package to get a top 4 dman with size and enough skill to move pucks effectively out of the zone and up to forwards. I think they aim for at least 2 such dmen.
 
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boydkc

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Shake your own head - your take is over the top and based in a kid that hasn't proven himself in the NHL - yet.
You don't know where Ville is going to end up any more than I do - and basing it on the fact that he is a good puck mover, is not enough.

I want to see him in a heavy game where we need guys that can strip pucks and take the man on occasion - he's too small at this point and unless he gets bigger / stronger, he's another offensive D man when we need more defense.

There' s a lot of love and speculation on this board about this guy - fine by me but calling him out as twice the dman Stanley is?
Phil Housley, Teppi Numminen were never close to 200 pounds and they were amazing defenceman. Jets lost in the playoffs because they were too slow and not skilled enough. Both Heinola and Perfetti have what in needed for the jets to move forward in the playoffs. Maurice is a Dinosaur and needs to go.
 
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