Rumor: Vegas: Local Rumblings About Marchessault Going On The Block

[VivaLasVegas]

I'm not disputing that, You're touting the money aspect of the deal, and that's ok if want to do that. I'm talking about the hockey aspect of the deal. What an owner gives or makes isn't my concern.

Nonetheless Vegas was set up to succeed as it pertains to the on ice product by the bountiful assets they accrued through the process.

My minor quibble is that they weren't set up to succeed, but they had a better opportunity to succeed than prior expansion teams, which is different. The Vegas organization could have easily botched it a thousand different ways.

You can't divorce the Business of Hockey from this discussion. The success or failure of teams is based on the Business of Hockey more than any other single criteria. Half of about HFBoards is about trades and acquisitions and whether a particular player was worth his cap hit. But the Business of Hockey goes much deeper than that and includes new owners who negotiate and pay for better starting assets. Nothing unfair, immoral, unethical or fattening about it.

 

[bucks_oil]

I myself never suggested they were gifted anything. But the assets they accrued through their initial expansion draft were substantial. Just very Vegas friendly. I remember seeing the boatload of extra picks they garnered for making side deals in not taking this player or that player. And to their credit they used those picks to acquire more assets like Stone as an example. They are a well run franchise. I would never dispute that. But they did have a circumstance that no other team had previously. I guess my point is that for a typical expansion team winning a title in six years is an unbelievable feat. In this scenario I don't see it that way. It's a great accomplishment but they had a nice head start.

Exactly. A blank slate and an expansion draft in a cap-constrained league is one heck of an advantage.

There are plenty of ways to play that hand and Vegas executed very well with a well thought out strategy, but let's not pretend that blank slate and draft were not a HUGE advantage vs the situation most GM's find themselves in on day one... spending years unwinding the mistakes of their predecessor.

 

[JKG33]

Oh yes they were, you're being intellectually dishonest here or just don't understand the history of expansion in the NHL. They were afforded the most advantagious scenario over the last 50 years regarding expansion.

Heck even when Seattle came in they were the only team who didn't lose a good player. Yes other teams pocketed money, but on the ice they lost key guys to their respective teams.

They weren't gifted a cup! But they were given a head start. Vegas won the cup, that's a great achievement, very hard to accomplish. But lets not act as if they were a typical expansion team that wasn't afforded a great scenario by which to succeed.

They took advantage of their scenario. That's on them. Like I said, nobody forced the rest of the league to become stupid in their dealings with Vegas.

Yes of course. I forgot. The Vegas front office is the smartest, most shrewd in the league and every other team just has no idea what they’re doing.

What else was Anaheim supposed to do? They were coming off one of their best seasons and didn’t want to lose up-and-comer Sami Vatanen. They already had Brandon Montour in their system and frankly it’s just the unfortunate nature of the beast for teams that did the losing and put in the work to assemble a strong, deep team only to watch some team come in pay for the right to just pluck someone. Again, it’s what it is and, as others have mentioned, it’s the benefit of paying such an exorbitant expansion fee.

They were given an advantageous head start and took advantage of it. Why is it such a hard concept to accept?

To the bolded, yes but unironically. Theyve been ruthless in their dealings, always chasing star players and its paid off. Damn near every other team is far too conservative, or stupid in who they aquire. Vegas is without a doubt the smartest team in the league. Many other teams could've acquired Stone, Eichel, Pietrangelo, Hill, and just about every other player crucial to their success.

Teams were only forced to lose 1 single player. Anaheim gave up the highest potential one of the bunch, and then proceeded to lose the rest of their D core in the coming years anyway. Pure stupidity. Same with Florida.. why give up 2 forwards when you just need to give up 1?

Why is it such a hard concept to get that they've one of the best managed teams of the last 6 years?

 

[Ryder71]

They took advantage of their scenario. That's on them. Like I said, nobody forced the rest of the league to become stupid in their dealings with Vegas.

To the bolded, yes but unironically. Theyve been ruthless in their dealings, always chasing star players and its paid off. Damn near every other team is far too conservative, or stupid in who they aquire. Vegas is without a doubt the smartest team in the league. Many other teams could've acquired Stone, Eichel, Pietrangelo, Hill, and just about every other player crucial to their success.

Teams were only forced to lose 1 single player. Anaheim gave up the highest potential one of the bunch, and then proceeded to lose the rest of their D core in the coming years anyway. Pure stupidity. Same with Florida.. why give up 2 forwards when you just need to give up 1?

Why is it such a hard concept to get that they've one of the best managed teams of the last 6 years?

I think Tampa Bay did pretty well for themselves In that time. Having Kucherov sit out the regular season in my opinion was brilliant. Tampa Bay is a very well run franchise themselves. And I'm not a fan of Tampa Bay to be clear. They made three straight finals and won two stanley Cups. I don't think they have to take a back seat to anybody.

 

[JKG33]

I think Tampa Bay did pretty well for themselves In that time. Having Kucherov sit out the regular season in my opinion was brilliant. Tampa Bay is a very well run franchise themselves. And I'm not a fan of Tampa Bay to be clear. They made three straight finals and won two stanley Cups. I don't think they have to take a back seat to anybody.

Ok sure. I don't disagree there. But the list of teams in that is only Tampa and Vegas.

 

[Ryder71]

Ok sure. I don't disagree there. But the list of teams in that is only Tampa and Vegas.

Yeah I'd have to say Vegas is right there behind tampa. I'm not sure exactly what Colorado did the past couple years, I think they made a Conference Final the one year and won the cup. But I'd say those are the three teams with Tampa being number one because of two cups obviously.

 

[WhataKnight]

They took advantage of their scenario. That's on them. Like I said, nobody forced the rest of the league to become stupid in their dealings with Vegas.

To the bolded, yes but unironically. Theyve been ruthless in their dealings, always chasing star players and its paid off. Damn near every other team is far too conservative, or stupid in who they aquire. Vegas is without a doubt the smartest team in the league. Many other teams could've acquired Stone, Eichel, Pietrangelo, Hill, and just about every other player crucial to their success.

Teams were only forced to lose 1 single player. Anaheim gave up the highest potential one of the bunch, and then proceeded to lose the rest of their D core in the coming years anyway. Pure stupidity. Same with Florida.. why give up 2 forwards when you just need to give up 1?

Why is it such a hard concept to get that they've one of the best managed teams of the last 6 years?

You worded my argument better than I could.

One addendum would be that they hired up a statistics nut with a law degree for their hockey ops - one of those guys with the room full of dry erase boards and spreadsheets. Look no further than that for much of the architecture behind how to get an expansion team a war chest they can move in an accelerated fashion to reach the level of roster quality (and cap crunches) we see with teams like Tampa in such a short time.

 

[Vegan Knight]

This is a fun thread……

Perhaps the reason why this story has legs would be due to Schmidt, Pacioretty and Fleury? Since the Knights seem to wear the villain tag so well, it’s an easy conclusion to jump to.

There’s some sense in such a trade, and they’d made such harsh moves in the past. My thinking after digesting this more is that it begins and ends there.

(Anyone still mad about Fleury should go back and watch the Montréal series. The team just flat out played better when Lehner was in net, since they didn’t have to worry about Josh Anderson teleporting behind Fleury in an upper bowl-level, distracting flash of light for what, like a third time?

This isn’t said to talk shit on MAF and it’s a shame how he found out about the trade. Just saying that from a Vegas on-ice-product perspective, they saw they could win with Lehner. Probably influenced a little decision making with Adin Hill, another big-bodied goalie.)

Barbashev found out he was traded when his wife read it on Twitter or something. It happens often.

Also, Fleury and Walsh knew the teams were talking, they tried to sabotage those talks by saying Fleury would retire and not ever play for Chicago.

Fleury learning the trade had officially gone through would not have been a surprise. The whole narrative was just their PR spin and people hate the Golden Knights so it was eaten up.

Someone said it earlier in the thread and it's been said before, Vegas is the only team not allowed to trade players. Going by the reaction whenever they do.

But the Marchessault rumors I haven't even seen. OP probably just made a post about nothing. It seems to be just speculation because he said they didn't talk extension yet. I don't think he gets traded when Vegas probably needs more goals on the roster next year, not to trade 30 of them.

Whether it would be smart to let Marchessault walk after this year is another topic entirely. It might be.

 

[al secord]

"Oh Marchessault? We won't see him no more."

 

[WhataKnight]

Barbashev found out he was traded when his wife read it on Twitter or something. It happens often.

Also, Fleury and Walsh knew the teams were talking, they tried to sabotage those talks by saying Fleury would retire and not ever play for Chicago.

Fleury learning the trade had officially gone through would not have been a surprise. The whole narrative was just their PR spin and people hate the Golden Knights so it was eaten up.

Someone said it earlier in the thread and it's been said before, Vegas is the only team not allowed to trade players. Going by the reaction whenever they do.

But the Marchessault rumors I haven't even seen. OP probably just made a post about nothing. It seems to be just speculation because he said they didn't talk extension yet. I don't think he gets traded when Vegas probably needs more goals on the roster next year, not to trade 30 of them.

Whether it would be smart to let Marchessault walk after this year is another topic entirely. It might be.

I saw the rumours. Kinda came up out of nowhere and made it as far as the Locked On Golden Knights podcast. It seems they had to grab stories from this season about friction between Cassidy and Marchessault (which I’d never heard and still think was clickbait-based.)

I’m still of the opinion that it only took off as a talking point because the Knights draw loads of hate; more like “that’s something those evil Golden Knights would do!” than anything else.

Gas, grass or ass - I’d see reason for it if someone capable of scoring those goals with better term and contract were coming back, but it takes a GM willing to make a deal based solely on getting a Conn Smythe winner.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Most loyal Vegas move

Loyal to the game.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

For some reason I see Marchessault getting traded for a superstar goaltender. I'm not talking about Hellebuyck either.

But if Vegas trades Marchessault that'll be their all-time lowest move. I even wonder if that team will ever retire numbers.

 

[HockeyF3ind]

More cups than Vancouver in 53 years as well. Won their first one 6 years after joining the league.

More cups than Toronto in 56 years also.

 

[JKG33]

For some reason I see Marchessault getting traded for a superstar goaltender. I'm not talking about Hellebuyck either.

But if Vegas trades Marchessault that'll be their all-time lowest move. I even wonder if that team will ever retire numbers.

Why does Vegas need another goalie? They've got arguably the best tandem in the league signed at a combined $6m for the next 2 seasons

 

[WhataKnight]

For some reason I see Marchessault getting traded for a superstar goaltender. I'm not talking about Hellebuyck either.

But if Vegas trades Marchessault that'll be their all-time lowest move. I even wonder if that team will ever retire numbers.

They’ll be fine at goal for a bit - Thompson and Hill now, though they have Patera, Saville and Lindbom in the system. Goal ain’t the position they need to bolster - it would be at forward; Eichel seems to work better with a grinder on one side and a finisher on the other so he doesn’t have to drive everything himself. All moving Marchessault would do is necessitate the acquisition of his replacement.

Any Marchessault trade would/“should” require a player with ceiling and term coming back. Not that LA is trading with Vegas anytime soon, but unless someone with a Byfield-like ceiling is coming back, the right answer is to laugh and hang up the phone.

Happy keeping him in Vegas if the Knights aren’t getting goals and youth back. The strength of this rumour may just be seeing who’s crazy enough to offer a bloated package to get a Conn Smythe on the roster along with the belief that the Knights would flip Marchessault for “future considerations” or close to it.

 

[GreeningOil]

No one should question Vegas management. They've won 11 rounds in 6 years.
In 2021-22 they only missed due to having the worst injuries in the league.

Marchessault will be 33 at the time an extension would kick in, and he'd want a raise. It makes perfect sense to part ways and get value from him now, leveraging that Conn Smythe.

They trade how I do in EA Sports NHL

 

[TheBeard]

They took advantage of their scenario. That's on them. Like I said, nobody forced the rest of the league to become stupid in their dealings with Vegas.

To the bolded, yes but unironically. Theyve been ruthless in their dealings, always chasing star players and its paid off. Damn near every other team is far too conservative, or stupid in who they aquire. Vegas is without a doubt the smartest team in the league. Many other teams could've acquired Stone, Eichel, Pietrangelo, Hill, and just about every other player crucial to their success.

Teams were only forced to lose 1 single player. Anaheim gave up the highest potential one of the bunch, and then proceeded to lose the rest of their D core in the coming years anyway. Pure stupidity. Same with Florida.. why give up 2 forwards when you just need to give up 1?

Why is it such a hard concept to get that they've one of the best managed teams of the last 6 years?

Good managed team, yes. No question. But also a case of being born at third and claiming you hit a triple. Playing with the benefit of hindsight makes every decision look genius/stupid. While every team can go for the stars, very few had the ammo or the room to go for practically all of them. Is constantly betting the farm a proven strategy for winning? Absolutely not, and very few, if any can afford to go that route. Again, kudos to them for accomplishing what they did, but let’s be honest, much of the trade commodity they acquired was a case of other GMs having to make the decisions for Vegas. Anaheim, again, having just come off one of their best seasons and already having a surplus of young, unproven defencemen, we’re forced to make the decision to trade Shea because they didn’t want to lose Manson, who, himself was a young up and comer. Columbus was in the same boat, not wanting to lose their starting goalie or a young Josh Anderson. The plethora of picks they were given were from other teams not wanting to lose the pieces they scouted and developed. Vegas didn’t develop their own guys, instead they just turned around and traded for more established stars. That’s fine, good strategy for them but not without the potential consequences. Florida? Well, can’t speak for them and their actions.

But to sit here and claim that Vegas outsmarted everyone because at the time teams didn’t want to lose already major contributors is just naive. Calling them one of the smartest simply because they had no interest in actually developing their own players is lazy. But hey, they got their cup and I hope it’s enough to keep the fans engaged a few years down the road when they’re toiling closer to the bottom of the standings with no real future in terms of youth.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

If he’s indeed available, Dubas should inquire about him. marchy would be a massive addition to the Pens top 6.

 

[Lacaar]

For some reason I see Marchessault getting traded for a superstar goaltender. I'm not talking about Hellebuyck either.

But if Vegas trades Marchessault that'll be their all-time lowest move. I even wonder if that team will ever retire numbers.

I don't think you understand that Vegas doesn't have to work on the same premises that most other NHL teams do.

Vegas, Tampa, Rangers as examples.

Those teams could shit can the entire Team. And 80% of the players in the league would line up begging to be traded or sign there as UFA's. It's a luxury Vegas has realized and implements. It's why those teams are so bloody successful. Go there and don't perform.. shit canned (traded, left to rot in minors, ignored, then not resigned.. whatever they can do). That just doesn't work for a lot of the teams in the league.

I guess what I'm saying is that the factors that determine if a player wants to play in that city considerably favor those teams. QUITE considerably favor. The biggest reason is they're such destinations that they can keep competitive, which is one of the biggest drivers of player motivations for chosing a destination.

A hyperbole to illustrate the point. Vegas can trade Marchessault. Go on social media and tell him to "f*** off and never come back" with the confidence that his replacement.. whether it be from trade or UFA will not only sign, but at a discount. All while having the replacement signing all years in his effective window due to age. While Calgary would be forced to re-sign him at an increased premium into retirement years where half or more of the contract is a hindrance.

Vegas has 1 player.. 1 player signed past 35 and That's Pietrangelo to age 37.
The Flames have 4 players signed past 35... 4 f***ing players they had to beg... by giving years into their late 30's to sign there.

And we wonder why non-destination markets in Canada, Buffalo, Minnesota, Philadelphia, Columbus, etc don't win cups. The best chance they have is winning a generational lottery and driving hype to get players to play there without the "Non-Destination" premium. And that team just lost to Vegas. So even that hasn't proven fruitful.

There's all this talk about parity but for the most part of the last 30 years most Stanley cup winners have been at what most people would consider "Destination" cities. Vegas is probably the team that is most aware of this situation and takes advantage of it. I don't blame them one bit.. they're their to win and If Calgary gets f***ed over... all the better for them. It's not like Calgary fans are going to stop coming to watch.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Vegas has 1 player.. 1 player signed past 35 and That's Pietrangelo to age 37.

Probably a good time to put him on the block. Wonder what we can get out of him?

 

[myleafs]

Literally the only team that would do it is vegas. Insane. And these stupid fans here (yes i live in vegas) will just sit there and say oh okay they must have had their reasons, probably what any team would do right?

Insane?...yeah who wants to have all that success and a cup...must be a bummer. You guys should try the leafs way....you know...keep the same guys over and over, and dont have any success...much more satisfying.

 

[WhataKnight]

Yikes! l didn’t know that hockey ops were so easy that McPhee and Lugerner just had to piss into the wind to get a Cup.

“Porque no los dos.” They aren’t monumentally smarter than the rest of the league, and they had a favourable entry into the league. They still nailed that entry they could still have failed, and given the number of moving parts in hockey ops which I can’t even imagine, aren’t as much the beneficiaries of luck as some would suggest. The answer looks in the middle to me. (One example would be Karlsson - thrust into 1C roles at the start when he wasn’t more than 2C/3C consideration with CBJ; holds it for one year before proving to max out as 2C……a near-perfect one behind Eichel given the roster’s “flexibility” at C before the trade with Buffalo.)

As for Marchessault, again - I think this story has legs more due to expectations on Vegas’ reputation than any grounded exploration. Eichel’s an easy villain card, Marchessault’s got a mouth, the team is new, in the desert……easy for them to be cast as villains. They doubled down on a roster that already worked once. Can’t see it unless they implode before the TDL.

 

[glovesave_35]

No one should question Vegas management. They've won 11 rounds in 6 years.
In 2021-22 they only missed due to having the worst injuries in the league.

Marchessault will be 33 at the time an extension would kick in, and he'd want a raise. It makes perfect sense to part ways and get value from him now, leveraging that Conn Smythe.

Exactly. This is how successful winning franchises operate. When the Patriots were winning all the time they weren't afraid of letting a stat player leave.

 

[Lacaar]

Probably a good time to put him on the block. Wonder what we can get out of him?

He's still got a few years of good hockey left in him. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see you trade him right when he's on the tip of decline or starting his decline, though in this case he does have a nmc. Heck he may be a good bet to be quite effective into the later years of it. Or Vegas makes the nmc go away somehow.

Similar to Reilly Smith. I think Pittsburgh got hosed on this trade. Of all the players I watched in that series he was probably your worst, or should I say least impactful.

Point is I don't think Vegas treats their players poorly by any means. They just have the luxury to made hard decisions without fear of reputational impact amongst the players and coaches. You don't perform.. you're out. A luxury a lot of the teams around the league doesn't have because unlike Vegas everyone isn't lining up to take their place.

Calgary can drop a player. But the replacement isn't going to be a good one. It's a rookie.. or some guy just trying to stay in the league.. or they overpay. They trade for a player and have to overpay to keep him.

Vegas can drop anyone on the team. Trade for and sign anyone, sign any UFA at minimal a fair salary (NEVER EVER have to overpay, and usually drive a discount)

This shit adds up. Combine that with good management and Vegas has a strong advantage over the rest of the league.

The player pool they can draw from is practically 100%.
Calgary's realistic player pool is likely 80% with 20% of them wanting a premium in salary to play there.

 

[Seanaconda]

That is very revisionist. Fluery and his agent made themselves a distraction because Fleury didn't want to split time with Lehner, and the Vegas organization thus dumped Fleury on Chicago, who thought so highly of him that they more-or-less immediately dumped Fleury on Minnesota ... to the chagrin of some of the Wild fans.

Vegas Golden Knights goalie Marc-Andre Fleury gets agent Allan Walsh to remove tweet criticizing coach Peter DeBoer

Photoshopped image showed Vegas Golden Knights goalie Marc-Andre Fleury being impaled by a sword with the name of coach Peter DeBoer on blade.

www.usatoday.com

Vegas has a reputation for treating players very well while they are here: So well, in fact that it actually generated a complaint.

Pacioretty slams teammates and coaches in Vegas over “country club atmosphere”

“It was weird... there was no accountability,” says the star forward.

www.hockeyfeed.com

Oh lol patches got traded because he isn't fun
Well apparently not hating your job works for some people lol

Exactly. A blank slate and an expansion draft in a cap-constrained league is one heck of an advantage.

There are plenty of ways to play that hand and Vegas executed very well with a well thought out strategy, but let's not pretend that blank slate and draft were not a HUGE advantage vs the situation most GM's find themselves in on day one... spending years unwinding the mistakes of their predecessor.

Like if you did a real full scorched earth rebuild you could get to a similar situation of lots of cap and lots of draft/ prospect capitol

They just skipped the part where they had to suck first