Vancouver Realtor facing criminal charges and lifetime ban from Beer League hockey for kicking an opponent's face with his skates

Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
8,614
3,613
If I were going to punch someone, I'd feel much more confident loading up that punch if my hand was protected in a hockey glove

It's essentially like punching someone with a boxing glove on

Even if they're wearing a helmet and cage, you can still rattle their brain rendering them unconscious
 
Last edited:

MarkusKetterer

Shoulda got one game in
Ok so here’s a question for you, if you don’t mind: scrum occurs at the crease in adult beer league hockey. It’s only pushing and shoving, until Player A punches Player B in the face with a gloved hand. Is that assault, or covered under the rules of consent? Genuinely curious, because after reading your lengthy post, I’m still unsure of whether it would be considered assault or not (given that the players didn’t “square up” ie. Both consent in the traditional sense).

Technically it’s assault. But it’s also somewhat expected that that might happen at some point. Being kicked in the face isn’t outside of being a goalie or you being in a goal mouth scrum and your head is on the ice. And even then, the other person isn’t kicking you
 

Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
8,614
3,613
Technically it’s assault. But it’s also somewhat expected that that might happen at some point. Being kicked in the face isn’t outside of being a goalie or you being in a goal mouth scrum and your head is on the ice. And even then, the other person isn’t kicking you

If I stroll the streets of Chicago late at night, it's expected I'll get robbed at some point, but the assailant is no less guilty of a crime
 

Yukon Joe

Registered User
Aug 3, 2011
6,331
4,379
YWG -> YXY -> YEG
Ok so here’s a question for you, if you don’t mind: scrum occurs at the crease in adult beer league hockey. It’s only pushing and shoving, until Player A punches Player B in the face with a gloved hand. Is that assault, or covered under the rules of consent? Genuinely curious, because after reading your lengthy post, I’m still unsure of whether it would be considered assault or not (given that the players didn’t “square up” ie. Both consent in the traditional sense).

OK, this is a good question. Unfortunately like the asshole lawyer I am I won't give you a straight answer. Because I can't.

Step 1:

So no, I don't think consent applies here. You don't automatically consent to a fistfight in a hockey game because fistfights are explicitly against the rules of hockey. Pushing and shoving doesn't imply consent to fighting.

Step 2:

What about self-defence? Well the scrum in the crease gives rise to the question. I gave a link to the self-defence provisions of the Criminal Code before, but here I'll quote them:

34 (1) A person is not guilty of an offence if

(a) they believe on reasonable grounds that force is being used against them or another person or that a threat of force is being made against them or another person;

(b) the act that constitutes the offence is committed for the purpose of defending or protecting themselves or the other person from that use or threat of force; and

(c) the act committed is reasonable in the circumstances.

(2) In determining whether the act committed is reasonable in the circumstances, the court shall consider the relevant circumstances of the person, the other parties and the act, including, but not limited to, the following factors:

(a) the nature of the force or threat;

(b) the extent to which the use of force was imminent and whether there were other means available to respond to the potential use of force;

(c) the person’s role in the incident;

(d) whether any party to the incident used or threatened to use a weapon;

(e) the size, age, gender and physical capabilities of the parties to the incident;

(f) the nature, duration and history of any relationship between the parties to the incident, including any prior use or threat of force and the nature of that force or threat;

(f.1) any history of interaction or communication between the parties to the incident;

(g) the nature and proportionality of the person’s response to the use or threat of force; and

(h) whether the act committed was in response to a use or threat of force that the person knew was lawful.

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply if the force is used or threatened by another person for the purpose of doing something that they are required or authorized by law to do in the administration or enforcement of the law, unless the person who commits the act that constitutes the offence believes on reasonable grounds that the other person is acting unlawfully.

As you can see, there are a whole bunch of factors a judge has to take into account in deciding whether self-defence applies. It's not as simple as saying 'well this guy punched first so it's automatically self-defence'.

And I'm not going to go into the difference between a punch with or without a glove - only to note in every hockey fight I've seen they "drop the gloves" before the fight.

Step 3:

So let's say self-defence (Section 34) doesn't apply.

I didn't want to get too deep in the weeds before, but what the heck:. Even though something might technically be a crime, that doesn't mean the police, or the Prosecution, will lay a charge.

Here in Alberta (and every other jurisdiction has a similar, but not identical, rule), charges will only proceed if A: there is a reasonable likelihood of conviction, and B: there is a public interest in the prosecution.

So both come into play. In a hockey game where things happen in split seconds, if there is no video it can be hard to determine after the fact exactly what happened. It's always open for police/prosecution to say "maybe this is an assault, but a judge won't be able to decide what happened". This is the 'reasonable likelihood of conviction' issue. [Note: in this case there IS video]

Finally there is "public interest". So let's go back to your original scenario. Scrum in front of the net, pushing and shoving, leading to a punch to the face with a gloved hand.

A court case can take a lot of time and money. Think of the police time, the lawyers time, and the court's time. Let's say even though Player A hit Player B in the face, that ended matters, and hell, Player A and Player B shook hands at the end of the game. Police/prosecution may well feel that even if technically a crime happened, it's not "in the public interest" to lay a charge".

On the other hand, Player A may have a long history of similar actions, Player B may have been injured, and they sure as hell didn't shake hands. Police/prosecution may well feel that it is "in the public interest" to lay a criminal charge.

Step 4:

I'm just some schmuck lawyer. At the end of the day it depends whether a judge says "Guilty" to a charge of assault or not. They can take a different view of any of the things I said above.


Summary:

The criminal courts can theoretically be involved a lot more in on-ice incidents that almost any hockey player realizes. There are a lot of reasons why they aren't, which I've tried to explain. But to say that the courts can't get involved is an error.

[Disclaimer: I'm a lawyer practicing law in Alberta, Canada, who also loves playing rec hockey. I'm not your lawyer, and this should not be taken as legal advice. Laws in your own local jurisdiction may be different]
 

TheGoldenJet

Registered User
Apr 2, 2008
9,495
4,607
Coquitlam, BC
OK, this is a good question. Unfortunately like the asshole lawyer I am I won't give you a straight answer. Because I can't.

Step 1:

So no, I don't think consent applies here. You don't automatically consent to a fistfight in a hockey game because fistfights are explicitly against the rules of hockey. Pushing and shoving doesn't imply consent to fighting.

Step 2:

What about self-defence? Well the scrum in the crease gives rise to the question. I gave a link to the self-defence provisions of the Criminal Code before, but here I'll quote them:



As you can see, there are a whole bunch of factors a judge has to take into account in deciding whether self-defence applies. It's not as simple as saying 'well this guy punched first so it's automatically self-defence'.

And I'm not going to go into the difference between a punch with or without a glove - only to note in every hockey fight I've seen they "drop the gloves" before the fight.

Step 3:

So let's say self-defence (Section 34) doesn't apply.

I didn't want to get too deep in the weeds before, but what the heck:. Even though something might technically be a crime, that doesn't mean the police, or the Prosecution, will lay a charge.

Here in Alberta (and every other jurisdiction has a similar, but not identical, rule), charges will only proceed if A: there is a reasonable likelihood of conviction, and B: there is a public interest in the prosecution.

So both come into play. In a hockey game where things happen in split seconds, if there is no video it can be hard to determine after the fact exactly what happened. It's always open for police/prosecution to say "maybe this is an assault, but a judge won't be able to decide what happened". This is the 'reasonable likelihood of conviction' issue. [Note: in this case there IS video]

Finally there is "public interest". So let's go back to your original scenario. Scrum in front of the net, pushing and shoving, leading to a punch to the face with a gloved hand.

A court case can take a lot of time and money. Think of the police time, the lawyers time, and the court's time. Let's say even though Player A hit Player B in the face, that ended matters, and hell, Player A and Player B shook hands at the end of the game. Police/prosecution may well feel that even if technically a crime happened, it's not "in the public interest" to lay a charge".

On the other hand, Player A may have a long history of similar actions, Player B may have been injured, and they sure as hell didn't shake hands. Police/prosecution may well feel that it is "in the public interest" to lay a criminal charge.

Step 4:

I'm just some schmuck lawyer. At the end of the day it depends whether a judge says "Guilty" to a charge of assault or not. They can take a different view of any of the things I said above.


Summary:

The criminal courts can theoretically be involved a lot more in on-ice incidents that almost any hockey player realizes. There are a lot of reasons why they aren't, which I've tried to explain. But to say that the courts can't get involved is an error.

[Disclaimer: I'm a lawyer practicing law in Alberta, Canada, who also loves playing rec hockey. I'm not your lawyer, and this should not be taken as legal advice. Laws in your own local jurisdiction may be different]
Thank you for the in-depth analysis! I see you have a great deal of knowledge in this and similar areas, kudos and thanks again for sharing.
 

AceKing21

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
201
204
Central NY
OK, this is a good question. Unfortunately like the asshole lawyer I am I won't give you a straight answer. Because I can't.

Step 1:

So no, I don't think consent applies here. You don't automatically consent to a fistfight in a hockey game because fistfights are explicitly against the rules of hockey. Pushing and shoving doesn't imply consent to fighting.

Step 2:

What about self-defence? Well the scrum in the crease gives rise to the question. I gave a link to the self-defence provisions of the Criminal Code before, but here I'll quote them:



As you can see, there are a whole bunch of factors a judge has to take into account in deciding whether self-defence applies. It's not as simple as saying 'well this guy punched first so it's automatically self-defence'.

And I'm not going to go into the difference between a punch with or without a glove - only to note in every hockey fight I've seen they "drop the gloves" before the fight.

Step 3:

So let's say self-defence (Section 34) doesn't apply.

I didn't want to get too deep in the weeds before, but what the heck:. Even though something might technically be a crime, that doesn't mean the police, or the Prosecution, will lay a charge.

Here in Alberta (and every other jurisdiction has a similar, but not identical, rule), charges will only proceed if A: there is a reasonable likelihood of conviction, and B: there is a public interest in the prosecution.

So both come into play. In a hockey game where things happen in split seconds, if there is no video it can be hard to determine after the fact exactly what happened. It's always open for police/prosecution to say "maybe this is an assault, but a judge won't be able to decide what happened". This is the 'reasonable likelihood of conviction' issue. [Note: in this case there IS video]

Finally there is "public interest". So let's go back to your original scenario. Scrum in front of the net, pushing and shoving, leading to a punch to the face with a gloved hand.

A court case can take a lot of time and money. Think of the police time, the lawyers time, and the court's time. Let's say even though Player A hit Player B in the face, that ended matters, and hell, Player A and Player B shook hands at the end of the game. Police/prosecution may well feel that even if technically a crime happened, it's not "in the public interest" to lay a charge".

On the other hand, Player A may have a long history of similar actions, Player B may have been injured, and they sure as hell didn't shake hands. Police/prosecution may well feel that it is "in the public interest" to lay a criminal charge.

Step 4:

I'm just some schmuck lawyer. At the end of the day it depends whether a judge says "Guilty" to a charge of assault or not. They can take a different view of any of the things I said above.


Summary:

The criminal courts can theoretically be involved a lot more in on-ice incidents that almost any hockey player realizes. There are a lot of reasons why they aren't, which I've tried to explain. But to say that the courts can't get involved is an error.

[Disclaimer: I'm a lawyer practicing law in Alberta, Canada, who also loves playing rec hockey. I'm not your lawyer, and this should not be taken as legal advice. Laws in your own local jurisdiction may be different]
Is proving intent to injure or self defense tough to prove in court? We see the video, and I am sure his lawyer can make a case that Brandon is flailing his legs in an attempt to get the other guy off of him. Me personally, I feel it was direct intent to kick the guy. I want to also assume that at that moment he was not thinking rationally and instinctively kicked, but did not realize the grave consequences of him having skates on and what it could have potentially turned into. I want to believe no human is that stupid to want to kick someone in the face while they have skates on, it's incomprehensible to me.
 

thebus88

19/20 Columbus Blue Jackets: "It Is What It Is"
Sep 27, 2017
5,078
2,705
Michigan
Gloves easily rank below sticks and elbow pads, on the ‘hockey weapon pyramid’…

Skates are easily the most dangerous, and while I’ve seen some “reckless” and absolutely malicious things done on the ice, to KICK a guy in the FACE….I’m pretty blown away by any/all of the comments downplaying a skate kick to the face, with or without the ridiculous vilification of a punch with a glove on.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
85,323
139,061
Bojangles Parking Lot
Is proving intent to injure or self defense tough to prove in court? We see the video, and I am sure his lawyer can make a case that Brandon is flailing his legs in an attempt to get the other guy off of him. Me personally, I feel it was direct intent to kick the guy. I want to also assume that at that moment he was not thinking rationally and instinctively kicked, but did not realize the grave consequences of him having skates on and what it could have potentially turned into. I want to believe no human is that stupid to want to kick someone in the face while they have skates on, it's incomprehensible to me.

That really sums up the two ways to view this incident. It would take a truly deranged individual to kick someone in the face with a skate, under almost any imaginable circumstance. A reflexive kick because you're being restrained during a fight, more understandable from a rational-thinking-human perspective.

One's interpretation of this incident depends on the assumptions they make about the player's state of mind -- do you view him as deranged or distressed? Both interpretations are groundless, so it's really a matter of interpretation. The court will end up doing basically the same thing, making an interpretive judgment based on the evidence (including the video but also testimony, personal history, and a bunch of details we will never be privy to).
 

Yukon Joe

Registered User
Aug 3, 2011
6,331
4,379
YWG -> YXY -> YEG
Is proving intent to injure or self defense tough to prove in court? We see the video, and I am sure his lawyer can make a case that Brandon is flailing his legs in an attempt to get the other guy off of him. Me personally, I feel it was direct intent to kick the guy. I want to also assume that at that moment he was not thinking rationally and instinctively kicked, but did not realize the grave consequences of him having skates on and what it could have potentially turned into. I want to believe no human is that stupid to want to kick someone in the face while they have skates on, it's incomprehensible to me.
So one more mini-essay, short than the last two.

So "proving intent to injure" isn't really a thing (usually). It doesn't matter whether you intended to injure or not. If you intended to hit, and that hit caused an injury, then too f***ing bad. It is not a defence to say "well I meant to hit the guy, but I didn't think I'd seriously hit him". There are a lot of really tragic cases out there where there's a simple assault, Guy A hits Guy B, Guy B, falls down, hits his head on a rock and dies on the spot. Guess what that's still manslaughter, even though Guy A had absolutely no intent to kill. (If he did have intent to kill that would upgrade it to murder, but murder is the only area where intent matters).

I've covered self-defence now twice. Is it hard to prove? Well it's a defence, and the Prosecution needs to prove every element of the offence "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" - the defence doesn't need to prove anything (some rare exceptions). So even if a judge thinks "well, I don't think it was self-defence, but I'm not sure" then that's good enough it's "not guilty".


Going back here the video is bad, for sure. But I think you'd need to have the witness statements of everyone involved, find out what was being said. Just as an extreme example if the realtor was saying "I'll f***ing cut you" as he was kicking, I think self defence would be impossible to prove.
 

Yukon Joe

Registered User
Aug 3, 2011
6,331
4,379
YWG -> YXY -> YEG
That really sums up the two ways to view this incident. It would take a truly deranged individual to kick someone in the face with a skate, under almost any imaginable circumstance. A reflexive kick because you're being restrained during a fight, more understandable from a rational-thinking-human perspective.

One's interpretation of this incident depends on the assumptions they make about the player's state of mind -- do you view him as deranged or distressed? Both interpretations are groundless, so it's really a matter of interpretation. The court will end up doing basically the same thing, making an interpretive judgment based on the evidence (including the video but also testimony, personal history, and a bunch of details we will never be privy to).

Couple points:

-"It was just reflexive" will not often work (not that it can't). The courts assume that you intend to carry out the actions that you carry out. The fact you wouldn't have done it if you were in your normal state of mind doesn't really matter (so being really mad, or really drunk, is not a defence). Because otherwise a large majority of criminals would claim "oh I didn't know what I was doing at the time - I would never ordinarily do that kind of thing".

-it's a great point that a court will not just make a decision based on the video alone. The court would absolutely want to hear from all the witnesses, including the kicker (if he chooses to testify). Where you make an error though is "personal history" will never come into it. Each situation is judged on its own merits.
 

Ducks4Cup

Registered User
Jun 14, 2022
133
115
Serious question cuz we have a lawyer in the house:
if I’m attacked on the street by a guy with fists am I only allowed to defend myself with fists?
so applying that to a beer league game, if a guy who’s way bigger than me manhandles me on the ice and I feel I’m going to get messed up am I allowed to defend myself any way I can?
(yes I watched the video and I know what happened)
 

Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
8,614
3,613
Serious question cuz we have a lawyer in the house:
if I’m attacked on the street by a guy with fists am I only allowed to defend myself with fists?
so applying that to a beer league game, if a guy who’s way bigger than me manhandles me on the ice and I feel I’m going to get messed up am I allowed to defend myself any way I can?

(yes I watched the video and I know what happened)

If you're being physically attacked, you can use any means you deem necessary to defend yourself

Now, what you deemed 'necessary' may have to be defended later in court depending on the circumstances
 
Last edited:

Yukon Joe

Registered User
Aug 3, 2011
6,331
4,379
YWG -> YXY -> YEG
Serious question cuz we have a lawyer in the house:
if I’m attacked on the street by a guy with fists am I only allowed to defend myself with fists?
so applying that to a beer league game, if a guy who’s way bigger than me manhandles me on the ice and I feel I’m going to get messed up am I allowed to defend myself any way I can?
(yes I watched the video and I know what happened)
There's no simple answer.

Self-defence is covered by section 34 of the Canadian Criminal Code. I quoted it before, but again:

  • 34 (1) A person is not guilty of an offence if
    • (a) they believe on reasonable grounds that force is being used against them or another person or that a threat of force is being made against them or another person;
    • (b) the act that constitutes the offence is committed for the purpose of defending or protecting themselves or the other person from that use or threat of force; and
    • (c) the act committed is reasonable in the circumstances.
  • Marginal note:Factors
    (2) In determining whether the act committed is reasonable in the circumstances, the court shall consider the relevant circumstances of the person, the other parties and the act, including, but not limited to, the following factors:
    • (a) the nature of the force or threat;
    • (b) the extent to which the use of force was imminent and whether there were other means available to respond to the potential use of force;
    • (c) the person’s role in the incident;
    • (d) whether any party to the incident used or threatened to use a weapon;
    • (e) the size, age, gender and physical capabilities of the parties to the incident;
    • (f) the nature, duration and history of any relationship between the parties to the incident, including any prior use or threat of force and the nature of that force or threat;
    • (f.1) any history of interaction or communication between the parties to the incident;
    • (g) the nature and proportionality of the person’s response to the use or threat of force; and
    • (h) whether the act committed was in response to a use or threat of force that the person knew was lawful.

So proportionality of the force is one of several factors.

If someone gives you a shove (which is unlawful), and you defend yourself by pulling out bear spray and spraying the person in the eyes, that's probably not going to be proportional (I was going to do a firearm analogy, but that brings in a whole lot of other issues that aren't helpful).

It gets even more complicated in a beer league game, because the ref should be stepping in to stop the fight so it's harder to argue you need to use a much higher level of force to protect yourself. Harder, but not impossible.
 

shoeshine boy

Registered User
Aug 14, 2008
756
123
I will first admit to only reading the 1st page of this thread but do none of you actually play??? you NEVER kick in a scrum in ice hockey. you're wearing a freaking knife on your foot! this is why it's (usually) a Match Penalty. kicks in my league have gotten players suspended for life.
Rec league fights may be stupid (and sad, quite frankly) but kicking someone when you're wearing ice hockey skates is even more stupid.
 

cowboy82nd

Registered User
Feb 19, 2012
5,113
2,320
Newnan, Georgia
I will first admit to only reading the 1st page of this thread but do none of you actually play??? you NEVER kick in a scrum in ice hockey. you're wearing a freaking knife on your foot! this is why it's (usually) a Match Penalty. kicks in my league have gotten players suspended for life.
Rec league fights may be stupid (and sad, quite frankly) but kicking someone when you're wearing ice hockey skates is even more stupid.

Welcome back shoeshine boy! I haven’t seen you around in awhile.
 

Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
8,614
3,613
It gets even more complicated in a beer league game, because the ref should be stepping in to stop the fight so it's harder to argue you need to use a much higher level of force to protect yourself. Harder, but not impossible.
What legal responsibility does a referee have to put themselves in harm's way by intervening?

I would think they sign a contract with the league before they're permitted to ref, so I'd be curious what the contract says about physical altercations
 
  • Like
Reactions: thebus88

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad