Confirmed with Link: [VAN/NYR] Canucks acquire 4th Round Pick in 2023 for Tyler Motte

[Shareefruck]

Motte with 60 pts over the last 6 years...

Clearly he has little value to any NHL team.

Canuck fans are famous for over valuing our players. 4th line 10-15 pts per season guys like Motte are a dime a dozen.

A fourth round pick still has a slight chance of an NHL player... so you take what you can get.

Very misleading argument. He can be faulted for being injury prone (and that may ultimately be the dealbreaker), but he's been playing like a 25-30 point player the past few seasons, not to mention that most of his value is not in the numbers he produces.

Whether or not Canuck fans overvalue this player only has to do with how much they're disregarding his injury inconsistencies, not anything to do with how good of a player he is on the ice.

 

[timw33]

He's on a 4th line with Barclay Goodrow and Ryan Reaves today.

 

[orcatown]

Motte has established this season and last he is a consistently good player. He was also hugely important to the success of the team in the playoffs a couple of seasons ago. There is no over-valuation of this player by Canuck fans but only the almost universal recognition he has been a top player on the team.

Saying he was only worth a 4th because that is what they got is wrong IMO . On that basis, every trade, no matter how bad, is justified since 'that is what the team got" Surely no one is going to say that. Motte should have got more based on his play. We ended up giving up an asset for less than it was worth.

This seems a result of very flawed process by the team. All appearances, and even statement from the the team, suggest they were negotiating right up to the time of the trade. Then at the 11th hour, or beyond it, they made the decision they had to get something. I say they should have made a decision on renewing or trading Motte a long before the deadline. They had all season to try a re-negotiate or establish what the Motte camp wanted. If it was apparent they were asking too much (and the numbers thrown around don't seem that egregious) then the team should have been ready at least a week ago to move him. This would have opened up more trade opportunities including packaging Motte and/or using a third party to facilitate a better trade. As it was, most every team looking for a player like Motte had already got one or used up any cap space by the time Canuck management decided to get whatever they could.

Also, as one poster astutely proposed, they could have retained salary making Motte more attractive. And there might have been opportunities, given other teams injuries, to improve the return on Motte. But, at the end of the day, they basically ended up just dumping Motte I

Waiting to the very last minute to arrange a hasty deal is simply poor poor management and poor asset use. What they got for Motte was (and every analysis of the trade deadline moves agree) was less than market value.

I know we want to have hope that the new regime will do well. God knows we lived we lived thru awful management for years and we need some glimpses of sunshine and some hope. But the Motte deal smacks too much of the last minute fiascos of the Benning era. We should not start out excuse making for this group as so many have done throughout the tragic Benning years.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Will be interesting to see what Motte gets next season ..?…I don’t think a SC contender is going to shell out 2.5-3M to accommodate his salary demands.

I would have re signed him at $2-2.5 M…I have a suspicion that Allvin didn’t even want to go that high..

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

He's on a 4th line with Barclay Goodrow and Ryan Reaves today.

I think he’ll be an instant fan favorite..and a guy that Gallant will lean on down the stretch..

 

[KingofSurrey]

So interesting to read here how Canuck fans think Motte was worth a 2nd or a high 3rd.

Cleary NOT one team offered that. You may think your Toyota Camry from 2015 is worth 20 K .... but sadly no one will offer you that.

Canucks were offered a 4th.... that was the best offer they got.

So MOTTE is clearly worth a 4th. You take the offer and run.

 

[MS]

So interesting to read here how Canuck fans think Motte was worth a 2nd or a high 3rd.

Cleary NOT one team offered that. You may think your Toyota Camry from 2015 is worth 20 K .... but sadly no one will offer you that.

Canucks were offered a 4th.... that was the best offer they got.

So MOTTE is clearly worth a 4th. You take the offer and run.

The NHL is a very imperfect market.

Canuck fans felt given his level of play that he should have been worth a late 2nd. However, the market didn't agree. That doesn't mean that they weren't correct about his value in a perfect market.

Markus Johansson is absolute trash who makes Washington worse and was traded for two picks and a useful player. Sometimes the trade market doesn't make sense.

 

[KingofSurrey]

Very misleading argument. He can be faulted for being injury prone (and that may ultimately be the dealbreaker), but he's been playing like a 25-30 point player the past few seasons, not to mention that most of his value is not in the numbers he produces.

Whether or not Canuck fans overvalue this player only has to do with how much they're disregarding his injury inconsistencies, not anything to do with how good of a player he is on the ice.

You say Motte plays like a 25-30 pt player.... that is your OPINION.

Fact - Motte has 60 pts over last 6 years. FACT.

Canuck fans need to look at facts and not get carried away with over valuations of our own prospects. Motte is looking for a big paycheck this summer.... frankly he does not deserve it. Canucks were smart to step aside and let some other sucker over pay for a guy that has not once produced well for a full season. NOT once in 6 years.

 

[KingofSurrey]

The NHL is a very imperfect market.

Canuck fans felt given his level of play that he should have been worth a late 2nd. However, the market didn't agree. That doesn't mean that they weren't correct about his value in a perfect market.

Markus Johansson is absolute trash who makes Washington worse and was traded for two picks and a useful player. Sometimes the trade market doesn't make sense.

Johansson - former first round pick with 400 career NHL points.
Motte - former 4th round pick with 60 career NHL points.

Clearly one of the players has much more value and it is not Motte.

 

[MS]

You say Motte plays like a 25-30 pt player.... that is your OPINION.

Fact - Motte has 60 pts over last 6 years. FACT.

Canuck fans need to look at facts and not get carried away with over valuations of our own prospects. Motte is looking for a big paycheck this summer.... frankly he does not deserve it. Canucks were smart to step aside and let some other sucker over pay for a guy that has not once produced well for a full season. NOT once in 6 years.

An injury-prone 3rd liner isn't a 4th liner. It's an injury-prone 3rd liner.

His level of play when healthy has been very good. Unfortunately he hasn't been able to stay healthy enough to put up the 15-goal season from a 3rd line that he looks capable of, and doubtless that affected his trade value.

Also that Motte has put up 15+ goal 25+ point numbers when playing isn't an 'opinion'. Those are the numbers.

 

[MS]

Johansson - former first round pick with 400 career NHL points.
Motte - former 4th round pick with 60 career NHL points.

Clearly one of the players has much more value and it is not Motte.

One of those players is good at playing hockey and makes his team better and one of those players is bad at hockey and makes his team worse (but did some good things 5+ years ago).

Obviously one had more value, but the wrong player did and it shows how stupid the NHL trade market is.

 

[KingofSurrey]

One of those players is good at playing hockey and makes his team better and one of those players is bad at hockey and makes his team worse (but did some good things 5+ years ago).

Obviously one had more value, but the wrong player did and it shows how stupid the NHL trade market is.

OK i get it. You are better at assessing NHL talent than all the rest of the other NHL GM's.

Why didn't you say so earlier.

 

[Shareefruck]

You say Motte plays like a 25-30 pt player.... that is your OPINION.

Fact - Motte has 60 pts over last 6 years. FACT.

Canuck fans need to look at facts and not get carried away with over valuations of our own prospects. Motte is looking for a big paycheck this summer.... frankly he does not deserve it. Canucks were smart to step aside and let some other sucker over pay for a guy that has not once produced well for a full season. NOT once in 6 years.

That is not an opinion. In the games that he's actually played over the past few years, he's produced like a 25-30 point player. He only has 60 pts over the last 6 years because he's very injury prone and missed a ton of games. To suggest that that's factually indicative of his actual on-ice performance in the games he's played is misleading. On top of that, looking at his flat average over the past 6 years is also misleading because he only broke into the league 6 years ago and has generally progressed upwards since then, especially in the past 2.5 years.

2017-2018 - 46gp, 7p (12p pace)
2018-2019 - 74gp, 16p (18p pace)
2019-2020 - 34gp, 8p (19p pace)
Playoffs - 17gp, 5p (24p pace)
2020-2021 - 24gp, 9p (31p pace)
2021-2022 - 49gp, 15p (25p pace)

His overall pace over the entire 6 years is that of a 20p player (62p in 260gp).

If you're trying to argue that injuries are part of a player's value, and therefore he ends up being just as useless as a 10-15 point player on a practical level, that can be a reasonable argument, however, your statements are misleading and come across as deceptive without that clarification.

 

[MS]

OK i get it. You are better at assessing NHL talent than all the rest of the other NHL GM's.

Why didn't you say so earlier.

I honestly don’t even know how to respond to an outlook this simplistic.

 

[KingofSurrey]

That is not an opinion. In the games that he's actually played over the past few years, he's produced like a 25-30 point player. He only has 60 pts over the last 6 years because he's very injury prone and missed a ton of games. To suggest that that's factually indicative of his actual on-ice performance in the games he's played is misleading. On top of that, looking at his flat average over the past 6 years is also misleading because he only broke into the league 6 years ago and has generally progressed upwards since then, especially in the past 2.5 years.

2017-2018 - 46gp, 7p (12p pace)
2018-2019 - 74gp, 16p (18p pace)
2019-2020 - 34gp, 8p (19p pace)
Playoffs - 17gp, 5p (24p pace)
2020-2021 - 24gp, 9p (31p pace)
2021-2022 - 49gp, 15p (25p pace)

His overall pace over the entire 6 years is that of a 20p player (62p in 260gp).

If you're trying to argue that injuries are part of a player's value, and therefore he ends up being just as useless as a 10-15 point player on a practical level, that can be a reasonable argument, however, your statements are misleading and come across as deceptive without that clarification.

Oh i see.. We don't need guys that put up points in a season.... we need guys that have a high points per game but are injured most of the time.... Really ? Good luck building a team full of guys that rarely play....

 

[KingofSurrey]

I honestly don’t even know how to respond to an outlook this simplistic.

You tried to sell your 2015 truck on marketplace.... U asked for 20 K.
The most anyone offered you was 10 K.

Do you still think your truck is worth 20 K ? The market supply and demand rules and is 100% accurate.

It is only a sellers misconception that makes it seem out of whack...

 

[MS]

You tried to sell your 2015 truck on marketplace.... U asked for 20 K.
The most anyone offered you was 10 K.

Do you still think your truck is worth 20 K ? The market supply and demand rules and is 100% accurate.

It is only a sellers misconception that makes it seem out of whack...

32 GMs is a tiny market that is easily skewed.

If some idiot thinks a washed-up Martin Erat is worth Filip Forsberg … that’s the market but it’s imperfect and inefficient and doesn’t mean that the actual value is correct relative to what you’re actually getting.

There are UFAs this summer who are undervalued by the market and will be bargains and there are Rasmus Ristolainens who are badly overvalued by the market.

 

[Shareefruck]

Oh i see.. We don't need guys that put up points in a season.... we need guys that have a high points per game but are injured most of the time.... Really ? Good luck building a team full of guys that rarely play....

I see that you did not bother to read the entire post, which addresses this exact thing and extends that olive branch.

 

[4th line culture]

You tried to sell your 2015 truck on marketplace.... U asked for 20 K.
The most anyone offered you was 10 K.

Do you still think your truck is worth 20 K ? The market supply and demand rules and is 100% accurate.

It is only a sellers misconception that makes it seem out of whack...

Does this mean the 100% accurate market value of beagle was 3mil a year?

 

[Dab]

 

[KingofSurrey]

OR

Tyler Motte. - today's game

0 goals - 0 Assists - 0 Points.

In his teams 7-4 loss.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Fans are going to love him in the big apple…I think that he’ll finally get the recognition he deserves in the East..Hard working fearless player..Let’s hope his body keeps up with his desire..He does take a lot of abuse from opponents..

 

[orcatown]

32 GMs is a tiny market that is easily skewed.

If some idiot thinks a washed-up Martin Erat is worth Filip Forsberg … that’s the market but it’s imperfect and inefficient and doesn’t mean that the actual value is correct relative to what you’re actually getting.

There are UFAs this summer who are undervalued by the market and will be bargains and there are Rasmus Ristolainens who are badly overvalued by the market.

Exactly - saying the market establishes actual value is simplistic and silly. I suppose Loui Eriksson was worth his 6 mill. per. And as far selling or buying used cars if you think you're always getting actual market value it's time you took a longer look a under the hood.

There are any number of factors that bloat or deflate the price of player at the time of a trade. Maybe injuries force you into the trade, maybe the player asked for a trade, maybe the owner is demanding you make a trade or maybe the GM is flat out being stupid ( and we've had proof enough of this - although I guess King of Surrey would insist all Dim Jim's moves were only establishing true market value). And I would say circumstances affected the value we got back for Motte. Canucks waited too long and seemingly left opportunities, that other teams took advantage of, slip away while they attempted to negotiate with Motte agents. If a decision was made earlier and more decisively then I believe other options, given some of the other trades made for less impactful players, was possible. Any negotiations should have been precluded long before the deadline.

And talking only about points with Motte is short sighted. He anchored and was the best player on a line that shut down other teams top lines during the resurgence by the Canucks. More than this, his return coincided with a huge improvement in the PK. Before he returned we were giving up goals at a historical rate and losing game after game b/c of it. Without an improvement on the PK, which did center around Motte, there was no way we were competitive.

Indeed I would say that Motte was instrumental, given the line that formed around and improvement in the PK in turning the season around. This lead to obvious interest in Motte by other teams. But by the time the Canucks got around to moving him seems like most teams had completed their dealings.

 

[KingofSurrey]

Exactly - saying the market establishes actual value is simplistic and silly. I suppose Loui Eriksson was worth his 6 mill. per. And as far selling or buying used cars if you think you're always getting actual market value it's time you took a longer look a under the hood.

There are any number of factors that bloat or deflate the price of player at the time of a trade. Maybe injuries force you into the trade, maybe the player asked for a trade, maybe the owner is demanding you make a trade or maybe the GM is flat out being stupid ( and we've had proof enough of this - although I guess King of Surrey would insist all Dim Jim's moves were only establishing true market value). And I would say circumstances affected the value we got back for Motte. Canucks waited too long and seemingly left opportunities, that other teams took advantage of, slip away while they attempted to negotiate with Motte agents. If a decision was made earlier and more decisively then I believe other options, given some of the other trades made for less impactful players, was possible. Any negotiations should have been precluded long before the deadline.

And talking only about points with Motte is short sighted. He anchored and was the best player on a line that shut down other teams top lines during the resurgence by the Canucks. More than this, his return coincided with a huge improvement in the PK. Before he returned we were giving up goals at a historical rate and losing game after game b/c of it. Without an improvement on the PK, which did center around Motte, there was no way we were competitive.

Indeed I would say that Motte was instrumental, given the line that formed around and improvement in the PK in turning the season around. This lead to obvious interest in Motte by other teams. But by the time the Canucks got around to moving him seems like most teams had completed their dealings.

Or other option...... no other team in the NHL ( not including rangers ). even wanted to add Motte to their club......
Hence - little value.

 

[Peen]

It's hard/impossible to tell what's actually going on.

Sometimes the best thing you can do is nothing and there's a realistic argument to be made to support doing nothing this TDL.

Objectively speaking, this group of guys never got a real chance to be a real team

1. They have an absolute bell end for an owner
2. They had an absolute moron for a GM who they literally NEVER talked to face-to-face as communication was strictly through their agents
3. They had a trash incompetent coach with the personality of a dead fish who absolutely butchered the pre-season

I think this roster might have the highest skill potential of any Canucks team in our pathetic history and, for the first time ever for everyone except for Bo, having a normal pre/regular/possible-post season with a normal management team could be exactly what the boys need to develop chemistry and trust and friendships which leads to team defense and team toughness and the disappearance of Bozo.

And we transition from a shady af Aquilini subsidiary to a Tampa/Carolina type of org.

Maybe?

I think you are mayor of wrongville here.

Poolman, Schenn have no skill.

Myers looks flashy but his skill is useless in his position and there's a reason why he's a net negative in high leverage minutes. There's also a reason that, regardless of deployment, he doesn't really accomplish much offensively.

Hughes, sure. No one in my lifetime has even been close.

OEL can do some things in a skillful way, but nothing that I haven't seen from like any canucks blueliner in the past decade. His game has fallen so far from what he was 5-6 years ago.

Forwards - Lammikko, Highmore, Dickinson, Pearson, Richardson have none. Chiasson has none.

If your skills are marginal at ES, like, are you even a skilled player or are you just a flashy one?

Like, maybe just the top six and hughes is roughly equivalent skill wise, but even then, it's not even overly skilled? I don't know.