Confirmed with Link: [VAN/NJD] Canucks trade G Cory Schneider to Devils for 9th Overall Pick - Part III

[King of the ES*]

The decision to trade Schneider was made and the next decision was what acceptable offer to accept. The Canucks decided to trade Schneider to a team that isn't a direct competitor. Why is that silly? If you run a business and you made the managerial decision to sell an asset is it silly to prefer to sell to a company who isn't a direct competitor? Makes sense to me.

New Jersey's not a direct competitor? I guess they're an NHL team because they're trying to win a Super Bowl?

Yes, we play Edmonton more. But like I said, if you're so scared of trading Schneider to a division rival, maybe you should ask yourself if you should be trading him at all.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Let me try again since you keep missing the point. You keep saying that the goal is to improve the team and not make the team worse. My point is that not allowing a team (a divisional rival) get better is of value. That's why teams try to avoid trading the best player in the deal to a divisional rival. That's why some teams, even if they don't admit it, make moves to better match up against certain teams.

What I'm saying is the couple of extra times we would play Schneider is of minimal consequence. Do you really think that a potential loss of a point or two will be what keeps us out of a playoff spot?

And here the best offer (Oilers' offer) wasn't the offer that made the Canucks better relative to their immediate competition. That's what I meant when I said that while the ultimate goal is to win the Cup (making moves that improves the team the most), the first goal is to make the playoffs (making sure the team is one of the better teams in their division).

Again, do you really think that trading Schneider to Edmonton would be the difference between us making the playoffs or not?

 

[deckercky]

With divisional playoffs, divisional strength is a lot more significant now.

 

[Bleach Clean]

New Jersey's not a direct competitor? I guess they're an NHL team because they're trying to win a Super Bowl?

Yes, we play Edmonton more. But like I said, if you're so scared of trading Schneider to a division rival, maybe you should ask yourself if you should be trading him at all.

Trading Schneider at all is an altogether separate argument. I, like you, was not in favour of him being dealt.

However, given that management felt he had to be moved, moving him outside the division makes every bit of sense. Less frequency of play, and no direct divisional playoff implications (new format).

No one is saying he could not have been dealt within the division, just that there should be extra value associated with the trade commensurate to his talent level. For me, given that speculation regards that difference as a 2nd round pick (not what was asked but what was reportedly offered), I'm more than happy with management forgoing that extra value to deal him to the east.

With divisional playoffs, divisional strength is a lot more significant now.

For sure. I could not imagine the humming and hawing that would occur over EDM directly ousting VAN in the playoffs, with Schneider being a key figure. And he has that ability. Simply a "no thank you" from me on that front. Management absolutely made the right call in _this_ regard (if it was even a decisions, that is).

 

[Chubros]

What I'm saying is the couple of extra times we would play Schneider is of minimal consequence. Do you really think that a potential loss of a point or two will be what keeps us out of a playoff spot?



Again, do you really think that trading Schneider to Edmonton would be the difference between us making the playoffs or not?

A big part of managers not wanting to trade top players within the division is self-interest. The microscope is on a GM for a lot longer when his team faces the player that was traded away half a dozen times or more a year. Trade that player to the other end of the continent and its out of sight out of mind for fans, media, and ownership. That makes it a bit of an agency problem - what is best for the manager is not necessarily best for the team.

For this scenario? I would not want Vancouver to have to face Schneider a bunch of times every year and possibly in the playoffs just for a small upgrade from 9th to 7th overall. It would have to be a significantly better package.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

A big part of managers not wanting to trade top players within the division is self-interest. The microscope is on a GM for a lot longer when his team faces the player that was traded away half a dozen times or more a year. Trade that player to the other end of the continent and its out of sight out of mind for fans, media, and ownership. That makes it a bit of an agency problem - what is best for the manager is not necessarily best for the team.

For this scenario? I would not want Vancouver to have to face Schneider a bunch of times every year and possibly in the playoffs just for a small upgrade from 9th to 7th overall. It would have to be a significantly better package.

For me, assuming the rumours that the Oilers were willing to add the 37th overall(who turned out to be Zykov) plus a prospect on top of moving up from 9 to 7 is more than worthwhile.

I would be very disappointed if the reason Gillis took a lesser package from New Jersey was for the sake of the media. No GM should value the media/fans opinion over tangible assets.

 

[opendoor]

For me, assuming the rumours that the Oilers were willing to add the 37th overall(who turned out to be Zykov) plus a prospect on top of moving up from 9 to 7 is more than worthwhile.

I would be very disappointed if the reason Gillis took a lesser package from New Jersey was for the sake of the media. No GM should value the media/fans opinion over tangible assets.

What rumors are those? Pretty much any credible rumor I've read suggests that that was Gillis' asking price from Edmonton, not what the Oilers were offering. Which means you and Gillis are in complete agreement.

 

[Pip]

Still waiting for credible article of a confirmed Edmonton offer that Gillis turned down. Saying MacTavish was super choked at the draft doesn't count.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Still waiting for credible article of a confirmed Edmonton offer that Gillis turned down. Saying MacTavish was super choked at the draft doesn't count.

Dreger at the draft:

"The expected rate of return from Edmonton, I'm told, was significant. It included a first round draft pick, a second round draft pick, and a top prospect, so that's a lot more, with all due respect to the New Jersey Devils, than what the Devils have just paid to acquire Cory Schneider."

It makes a lot of sense why the Oilers were in disbelief when the trade went down given that their offer was much better.

 

[Pip]

I remember a report coming out after that said that was Gillis' asking price. Unless it was confirmed I don't buy it. Iginlas to Boston was a done deal.

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2013/07/01/vancouver-canucks-premium-edmonton-oilers-cory-schneider/

Says that's the asking price, not what was offered

 

[Vankiller Whale]

I remember a report coming out after that said that was Gillis' asking price. Unless it was confirmed I don't buy it. Iginlas to Boston was a done deal.

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2013/07/01/vancouver-canucks-premium-edmonton-oilers-cory-schneider/

Says that's the asking price, not what was offered

So Gillis was asking for 7th, 2nd, plus a top prospect(Klefbom maybe?)

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the most the Oilers were willing to offer was more than the Devils though.

I mean, that very same article pretty much says the exact same thing I've been saying, right?

From a team perspective, it would seem the Canucks were overestimating the negative ramifications of Schneider staying in-division, and consequently charging a premium well above the potential negative impact Schneider might have on them.

 

[Pip]

I didn't like the article for the opinion of the writer, just to stop the talk of saying that the Oilers for sure offered that package.

 

[ItsAllPartOfThePlan]

Dreger at the draft:

"The expected rate of return from Edmonton, I'm told, was significant. It included a first round draft pick, a second round draft pick, and a top prospect, so that's a lot more, with all due respect to the New Jersey Devils, than what the Devils have just paid to acquire Cory Schneider."

It makes a lot of sense why the Oilers were in disbelief when the trade went down given that their offer was much better.

EXPECTED rate of return...

 

[Vankiller Whale]

I didn't like the article for the opinion of the writer, just to stop the talk of saying that the Oilers for sure offered that package.

Well, I would easily take something like Ristolainen + Zykov over Horvat even without a prospect involved. Facing Schneider a few extra times a year shouldn't be a deal breaker.

And for those saying that what if we lose to the Oilers in the playoffs, it might just as easily happen that we beat the Oilers and we would have lost to whoever we might have played in their place if they didn't have Schneider.

Speculation like that doesn't really accomplish much.

 

[Pip]

Says we'd draft Zykov with the second. Gillis is GM

does not compute

 

[opendoor]

So Gillis was asking for 7th, 2nd, plus a top prospect(Klefbom maybe?)

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the most the Oilers were willing to offer was more than the Devils though.

I mean, that very same article pretty much says the exact same thing I've been saying, right?

How much more though? If Edmonton was only willing to throw in #56 overall would it be worth it? The 1st rounder would likely be Horvat regardless if it was #7 or #9 so the only additional assets would be whatever Edmonton added, and it doesn't sound like they were interested in adding much. If they had been willing to go somewhere near Gillis' asking price of #7, #37, and a prospect then I expect discussions would've gone further.

I see very little upside in dealing Schneider to Edmonton at the type of return he would've garnered (a 2nd round pick isn't all that valuable) and the potential for a big downside. And it doesn't even have to be due to head to head play. One or two lost home playoff dates (say, due to Schneider and Edmonton causing the Canucks to lose home ice advantage by finishing above them) over the next several years would likely generate more of a loss than the cash value of a 2nd round pick.

 

[Wisp]

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the most the Oilers were willing to offer was more than the Devils though.

you only think that because your argument hinges on it. Dreger's backtrack plus the article LPH just reported implies that no, it's not a reasonable assumption.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

you only think that because your argument hinges on it. Dreger's backtrack plus the article LPH just reported implies that no, it's not a reasonable assumption.

Uh...can you explain how they imply that?

 

[Wisp]

Uh...can you explain how they imply that?

My meaning is obvious and I know better than to take the bait from you. You're capable of reading comprehension. Use it.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

How much more though? If Edmonton was only willing to throw in #56 overall would it be worth it? The 1st rounder would likely be Horvat regardless if it was #7 or #9 so the only additional assets would be whatever Edmonton added, and it doesn't sound like they were interested in adding much. If they had been willing to go somewhere near Gillis' asking price of #7, #37, and a prospect then I expect discussions would've gone further.

I see very little upside in dealing Schneider to Edmonton at the type of return he would've garnered (a 2nd round pick isn't all that valuable) and the potential for a big downside. And it doesn't even have to be due to head to head play. One or two lost home playoff dates (say, due to Schneider and Edmonton causing the Canucks to lose home ice advantage by finishing above them) over the next several years would likely generate more of a loss than the cash value of a 2nd round pick.

Well, Gillis being willing to take Horvat so high up does cloud the issue somewhat, but from my own personal point of view I do see a difference in value between 7 and 9.

And you really think that a team should nix a trade just because if the team you're trading the player to gets home ice advantage ahead of you then you might lose out on a game or two of potential revenue?

Maybe the team should purposely throw away some games if we're up in a series, in order to help generate more revenue by playing an extra game or two.

 

[Pip]

Uh...can you explain how they imply that?

Youre willing to believe any rumour is it fits your narritive, yet disregard factual information when it doesn't.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

My meaning is obvious and I know better than to take the bait from you. You're capable of reading comprehension. Use it.

I don't have Dreger's retraction on hand, but from the article at least, it assumes the exact opposite:

It’s difficult to know the price point at which Edmonton would have been willing to consummate a trade, but for the sake of argument let’s imagine the Oilers would have been willing to move a seventh overall pick and a good young player – either already on the NHL roster or a nearly NHL-ready prospect – in a deal. Would that kind of top-up be enough to make up for trading Schneider within the division?

 

[Wisp]

I don't think you know what 'for the sake of argument' means, Vankiller.

In any case, here's Dreger's retraction:

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger 1 Jul
Canucks were not have offered a 1st, 2nd and a very high end prospect by the Oilers, but that is what Gillis asked for...#trustmysource

so yes. you are making assumptions that contradict the information on hand because your argument hinges on it.

 

[StringerBell]

I don't have Dreger's retraction on hand, but from the article at least, it assumes the exact opposite:

Using someone else's uninformed assumptions to back up your own uninformed assumption isn't going to take you very far. Even if we knew Edmonton made a better offer it doesn't mean anything unless we know what that offer was. Would you rather seen Gillis take the better offer if it was just 7th overall instead of 9th? I sure wouldn't.

 

[Wisp]

I'd like to add, in the absence of information, we're all making assumptions and speculating here. It's just that Vankiller is the only one traveling in the opposite direction of where the few sign posts we do have are pointing