Usain Bolt vs. Michael Phelps

[The Zetterberg Era]

Oerter and Lewis won 4 too. And there's wrestler too but the weight classes were changed but it happened in these games.

I thought theirs were not in consecutive Olympics though. In terms of Lewis I believe the boycott would get in the way of that distinction which is really unfair for him unfortunately.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

ITT: Americans get mad

I'm American and cheer for Phelps to do well, but it seems unlike many I'm able to look at his accomplishments objectively. While he may be the greatest swimmer ever, winning more golds than Bolt isn't necessarily more impressive given the copious amount of events available to swim in compared to sprinting. I'm sure if they added events for running while blindfolded, and a "medley" of sprinting with a blindfold and without, Bolt would have a comparable medal count.

Also, for the poster touting the importance of butterfly, the other three strokes have existed for hundreds or thousands of years. Butterfly was seemingly invented so the US could win more medals at the Olympics.

 

[Jack Straw]

It would be nice if people would stop using the argument that Phelps' medal haul is less meaningful because he swims more events. You all realize that he has more than twice as many Olympic medals as any other swimmer, right? Bolt does not have have more than twice as many medals as any other track and field athlete.

Phelps' medal haul is mind-boggling. We will not see anyone approach what he's done for a long, long, time, if ever. Bolt is just as dominant but in a different way. Trying to minimize the accomplishments of either of them is absurd. They are two giants of Olympic sports and it's doubtful that we'll see anyone like either of them for a long time.

 

[HanSolo]

It would be nice if people would stop using the argument that Phelps' medal haul is less meaningful because he swims more events. You all realize that he has more than twice as many Olympic medals as any other swimmer, right? Bolt does not have have more than twice as many medals as any other track and field athlete.

Phelps' medal haul is mind-boggling. We will not see anyone approach what he's done for a long, long, time, if ever. Bolt is just as dominant but in a different way. Trying to minimize the accomplishments of either of them is absurd. They are two giants of Olympic sports and it's doubtful that we'll see anyone like either of them for a long time.

This. If you're of the opinion that Bolt is the greater athlete fine. There's an argument to be made there. But the minimization of Phelps' accomplishments is stunning. No one is even CLOSE in the Olympics let alone his own sport. Regardless of what you think about swimming Phelps should go down as one of the greatest Olympians ever if not the greatest ever.

 

[HanSolo]

I'm American and cheer for Phelps to do well, but it seems unlike many I'm able to look at his accomplishments objectively. While he may be the greatest swimmer ever, winning more golds than Bolt isn't necessarily more impressive given the copious amount of events available to swim in compared to sprinting. I'm sure if they added events for running while blindfolded, and a "medley" of sprinting with a blindfold and without, Bolt would have a comparable medal count.

Also, for the poster touting the importance of butterfly, the other three strokes have existed for hundreds or thousands of years. Butterfly was seemingly invented so the US could win more medals at the Olympics.

So we should just abolish Basketball at the Olympics too right?

 

[HanSolo]

Phelps has far more events to enter. Bolt has three events to sprint in and that is it. He has no opportunity to win 20+ golds so Phelps' medal count is misleading.

Bolt is the king.

I don't know what you read and thought I was arguing, but I can assure you my post was in response to the person who believes that in our lifetimes we will certainly see another 20+ medal winner, and not the debate of Phelps vs Bolt at large.

 

[Jack Straw]

I'm American and cheer for Phelps to do well, but it seems unlike many I'm able to look at his accomplishments objectively. While he may be the greatest swimmer ever, winning more golds than Bolt isn't necessarily more impressive given the copious amount of events available to swim in compared to sprinting. I'm sure if they added events for running while blindfolded, and a "medley" of sprinting with a blindfold and without, Bolt would have a comparable medal count.

Also, for the poster touting the importance of butterfly, the other three strokes have existed for hundreds or thousands of years. Butterfly was seemingly invented so the US could win more medals at the Olympics.

Actually, butterfly was invented by an Australian and was used for a while in the breast stroke competition, until it was made it's own thing.

 

[Kurtz]

Regardless of what you think about swimming Phelps should go down as one of the greatest Olympians ever if not the greatest ever.

No one is arguing Phelps isn't one of the greatest Olympians ever. I'm firmly in the pro-Bolt camp on this one, but Phelps is arguably the second-greatest Olympian of all time...behind only Bolt imo.

 

[HanSolo]

No one is arguing Phelps isn't one of the greatest Olympians ever. I'm firmly in the pro-Bolt camp on this one, but Phelps is arguably the second-greatest Olympian of all time...behind only Bolt imo.

No one is arguing that explicitly but in touting Bolt there's a lot of brushing off Phelps' accomplishments like they're a lot less impressive than they actually are, just because Phelps had access to more events.

But I mean so do gymnasts...and so do other swimmers. No one in swimming has even come close to Phelps in terms of medal count. Now, Bolt is obviously more dominant in his individual events. Fine. And that could well make Bolt the better athlete, but the fact that Phelps has access to more events shouldn't totally discredit him. He is able to qualify for more events than any other swimmer and in having access to more medals than any other swimmers/olympians it's a testament to just how athletic Phelps is. You occasionally have other beasts like Ledecky this year, Lochte in past years, Franklin in 2012 who are able to qualify and medal in multiple events. Hell, even 16 year old Oleksiak pulled her own haul there. But no one is going to match 8 golds in 8 final races. They're just not. And I'll be stunned if we even see another haul of 6 or medals for a while. And no one is going to pull the total medal count that Phelps did. Phelps may not dominate the field in individual the way Bolt does, but his ability to cram in so many heats, semis, and finals and come away with so many golds so many times...look, for me I have an inherent American bias and to me that medal count makes Phelps the greatest Olympian ever. But I can certainly see the argument for Bolt as well. However these arguments that Butterfly isn't a practically applicable stroke and that Phelps benefits from access to more events...I don't think they totally fly in making Phelps look worse than he is.

 

[Kurtz]

Hell, even 16 year old Oleksiak pulled her own haul there. But no one is going to match 8 golds in 8 final races. They're just not. And I'll be stunned if we even see another haul of 6 or medals for a while. And no one is going to pull the total medal count that Phelps did.

Didn't Spitz go for 7/7 in Golds? You've mentioned Oleksiak, and then there's Ledecky who also hasn't reached her prime yet and got 4 golds +silver this time out. I think there's every chance that these 2 can come close to his totals over the next 3 Olympics. And with the way swimming records are being smashed, I wouldn't be surprised to see Phelps fall relatively shortly.

At the same time, no one's done the 9x9 that Bolt has, and that's going to stand through our lifetimes.

 

[HanSolo]

Fine. I'm not so opposed to calling Bolt the GOAT as I am diminishing Phelps' achievements in doing so.

 

[Halladay]

It took 36 years for someone to match Spitz, and Im pretty confident nobody will ever go 8/8 in swimming.

 

[Hit the post]

Didn't Spitz go for 7/7 in Golds?

He also retired at the age of 22 (or 21?). We'll never know what his total medal count could've been.

 

[NMF78]

No one is arguing Phelps isn't one of the greatest Olympians ever. I'm firmly in the pro-Bolt camp on this one, but Phelps is arguably the second-greatest Olympian of all time...behind only Bolt imo.

Whats the argument over Phelps then? 23 versus 9 gold medals and 28 medals overall versus 9 says it all really. You could argue as a sprinter that Bolt is even more dominant but the numbers are clear Phelps is the greatest and most succesfull Olympian of all time.

 

[Plural]

Usain Bolt, and frankly, it's not even that close in my books. That said, Phelps is absolutely wonderful athlete.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Whats the argument over Phelps then? 23 versus 9 gold medals and 28 medals overall versus 9 says it all really. You could argue as a sprinter that Bolt is even more dominant but the numbers are clear Phelps is the greatest and most succesfull Olympian of all time.

The second bolded is your answer to the first bolded. Bolt had to work for the 100m gold in this Olympics, but he won and broke records in 2008 and 2012 by hilarious margins. It's sort of a quantity versus quality argument. Phelps won more events, but Bolt won his events with mind-boggling ease. Not to say Phelps didn't win a lot of races with ease as well, but his margins of victory were typically less outrageous than Bolt's. I personally feel that we're less likely to see another Bolt emerge than another Phelps, so I lean towards Bolt in the comparison.

 

[Incognito]

IMO, for a future sprinter to be considered better than Bolt, they have to do more than just break 9.58. Simply breaking his records isn't enough. That's bound to happen due to advances in science and training. For someone to beat him, they have to match or surpass his sustained level of dominance in relation to his peers. The only way Bolt will be dethroned is if somebody can better his triple-triple.

 

[Plural]

IMO, for a future sprinter to be considered better than Bolt, they have to do more than just break 9.58. Simply breaking his records isn't enough. That's bound to happen due to advances in science and training. For someone to beat him, they have to match or surpass his sustained level of dominance in relation to his peers. The only way Bolt will be dethroned is if somebody can better his triple-triple.

I don't think there is one clear cut recipe for someone to overtake Bolt's position as the greatest sprinter ever. Maybe someone comes along and set's new records for 100, and 200 meters. Maybe we will then widely consider that person as the greatest ever. Maybe along comes a sprinter who never breaks either of those records, but is able to sustain a level that's one tenth from those records for a decade and we consider that sprinter greater than Bolt. You really don't know what it is going to take before we see it happening.

But when it does happen, we will recognize it. That's the thing about greatness, when you see it, you recognize it. It's not about watching the clock or breaking the records (those are merely products of greatness). When a sprinter comes along who is greater than Bolt, the world will know it. It doesn't matter what kind of records he sets, or doesn't set. When it happens, we will know it.

 

[Jeffrey]

If Phelps was competing for Jamaica would he have as many medals? I doubt it
How many in individual freestyle?

 

[Fighter]

I chose Phelps, but it's really a toss up. Bolt has been unbeatable, Phelps has been beatable, yeah, but the overall medal count of the latter is downright scary.
I used to be a swimmer as well, people don't realize how tough is to swim as often as Phelps did in all his Olympics, Beijing especially.

One or the other, they are the two top dogs, can't go wrong with any of them IMO.

 

[Doomsday Device]

The second bolded is your answer to the first bolded. Bolt had to work for the 100m gold in this Olympics, but he won and broke records in 2008 and 2012 by hilarious margins. It's sort of a quantity versus quality argument. Phelps won more events, but Bolt won his events with mind-boggling ease. Not to say Phelps didn't win a lot of races with ease as well, but his margins of victory were typically less outrageous than Bolt's. I personally feel that we're less likely to see another Bolt emerge than another Phelps, so I lean towards Bolt in the comparison.

I was interested in how the two compared in margin of victory at the Olympics so I decided to look it up.

100M
1. Carl Lewis (1984) - 0.20s
1. Usain Bolt (2008) - 0.20s WR
3. Bob Hayes (1964) - 0.19s WR
4. Maurice Greene (2000) - 0.12s
4. Usain Bolt (2012) - 0.12s

200M
1. Usain Bolt (2008) - 0.66s WR
2. Michael Johnson (1996) - 0.36s WR
3. Tommie Smith (1968) - 0.23s WR
3. Usain Bolt (2016) - 0.23s
5. Shawn Crawford (2004) - 0.22s

200M Freestyle
1. Michael Phelps (2008) - 1.89s WR
2. Yannick Agnel (2012) - 1.79s
3. Michael Gross (1984) - 1.66s WR
4. Mark Spitz (1972) - 0.95s WR
4. Sergey Koplyakov (1980) - 0.95s

100M Butterfly
1. Joseph Schooling (2016) - 0.75s
2. Mark Spitz (1972) - 0.31s WR
3. Dennis Pankratov (1996) - 0.26s WR
4. Michael Phelps (2012) - 0.23s
5. Lars Frolander (2000) - 0.18s

200M Butterfly
1. Mark Spitz (1972) - 2.16s WR
2. Melvin Stewart (1992) - 1.67s
3. Michael Gross (1984) - 1.30s
4. Dennis Pankratov (1996) - 0.93s
5. Michael Phelps (2008) - 0.67s WR

200M Individual Medley
1. Michael Phelps (2008) - 2.29s WR
2. Michael Phelps (2016) - 1.95s
3. Michael Phelps (2004) - 1.64s
4. Alex Baumann (1984) - 1.63s WR
5. Tamas Darnyi (1988) - 1.44s WR

400M Individual Medley
1. Ryan Lochte (2012) - 3.68s
2. Michael Phelps (2004) - 3.55s WR
3. Tamas Darnyi (1992) - 2.61s WR
4. Tom Dolan (2000) - 2.47s WR
5. Michael Phelps (2008) - 2.32s WR

I also looked at how the current world records they hold compared to the 2nd fastest person ever at that distance and how much they broke their first world record by. Obviously the margins will be different in swimming and track.

Bolt
100M
Broke world record 3 times
Margin of first WR: 0.02s
Margin over 2nd fastest person ever: 0.11s

200M
Broke world record 2 times
Margin of first WR: 0.02s
Margin over 2nd fastest person ever: 0.07s

Phelp
100M Butterfly
Broke world record 2 times
Margin of first WR: 0.18s
Margin over 2nd fastest person ever:0.19s

200M Butterfly
Broke world record 8 times
Margin of first WR: 0.26s
Margin over 2nd fastest person ever: 1.19s

400M Individual Medley
Broke world record 8 times
Margin of first WR: 0.67s
Margin over 2nd fastest person ever: 1.36s

 

[Preds Partisan]

Phelps is the master of conserving energy and managing his events. Margins and WR/OR 's don't even play into this conversation.

 

[Eisen]

Honestly, I don't see who the greatest Olympian is only as a discussion limited between Bolt and Phelps. There are a couple more with great Olympic careers that match up considering the sport they are participating in.

 

[irunthepeg]

It would be nice if people would stop using the argument that Phelps' medal haul is less meaningful because he swims more events. You all realize that he has more than twice as many Olympic medals as any other swimmer, right? Bolt does not have have more than twice as many medals as any other track and field athlete.

Phelps' medal haul is mind-boggling. We will not see anyone approach what he's done for a long, long, time, if ever. Bolt is just as dominant but in a different way. Trying to minimize the accomplishments of either of them is absurd. They are two giants of Olympic sports and it's doubtful that we'll see anyone like either of them for a long time.

Agreed here. You can think one is better but still respect the other.

I voted Phelps but have no problem with Bolt being proclaimed as the best. It's been an honour to watch both of these men and hopefully we will see athletes emerge close to that in either the same sports or different ones.

 

[J17 Vs Proclamation]

It would be nice if people would stop using the argument that Phelps' medal haul is less meaningful because he swims more events. You all realize that he has more than twice as many Olympic medals as any other swimmer, right? Bolt does not have have more than twice as many medals as any other track and field athlete.

Phelps' medal haul is mind-boggling. We will not see anyone approach what he's done for a long, long, time, if ever. Bolt is just as dominant but in a different way. Trying to minimize the accomplishments of either of them is absurd. They are two giants of Olympic sports and it's doubtful that we'll see anyone like either of them for a long time.

We're discussing Bolt and Phelps. One is able to participate in a lot of events both due to schedule and due to the physical style of his event. The other is limited by his schedule, and the physical style of his events also make it far harder to participate in multiple events.

Phelps has won a ridiclous amount of golds/meals. An outstanding athlete. However, Bolt literally can't compete with the haul/numbers domination because it's impossible. It's easier for a swimmer to elevate themselves above their historical piers than sprinters, for obvious reasons.