WJC: U.S. WJC Discussion

[AmericanDream]

Seems a tad bit sensationalist. Yes, I agree that Prince deserved more of a shot, but to suggest the U.S. brass has an anti-CHL bias is wrong. There are eight CHL kids on the roster (both goalies not to mention both guys with the A's on their jerseys). Is there a pro-USNTDP bias? Sure, but that's to be expected with a grass roots program designed to win international competitions.

As for your last paragraph, if someone is going to hold a grudge do you really want him on your team?

I know I didnt state it that way above, but I thought that it was implied that the US has a bias for the USNDP not an anti-CHL bias. the only guys they gave a shot from the CHL was guys that played on the USNDP or helped out for a few games like Watson.

I will make this clear again, the US doesnt have a bias against CHL kids, they have a bias for anyone that plays for the USNDP...now with that said, that pretty much will leave out the majority of top CHL kids and continue to make it look like an anti-CHL bias. and people are getting tired of it. I am tired of talking about it, but as long as these issues keep happening, those of us that give two craps have to continue to talk about it so that it stops happening.

as for your last comment about holding a grudge, I think you are missing the point here. the point isnt these kids holding a grudge so why should we want them, the point is that more and more players will continue to say no to play for this country and we dummies will continue to make pre World Championship rosters with all these guys that "should" be playing but wont.

why are they saying no? some have legit reasons, but I will damn well guarantee that more and more are saying no because either they got screwed over or another close friend got screwed over from the CHL and so on and so forth. That is why we are scraping the bottom of the barrel for players as it is with the WC.

and would I blame these kids for holding grudges? heck no, these kids have every right to hold their grudges, though playing for your country is the greatest honor and most of those kids believe that, they have been hurt and jaded prior so maybe they lose a bit of that love....

it is a trickle down effect and it may be getting worse in the next few years.

you know more then anyone I love USA Hockey, but I can call it out when I see bullcrap things going on, and I hate to say it but it stinks to high heaven what has been going on with the selection process over the past 6-7 years, and is only looking slightly better because more USNDP alumni are playing in the CHL.

I think this team is a Gold medal calibre team, but that isnt the point, it is about fairness and bringing in the best kids no matter where they are from....that isnt really happening sadly.

 

[AmericanDream]

the other issue is the fact that the NHL gives money to USA Hockey...

I cant imagine the NHL looking at US WJC teams that are loaded with non USNDP players, and wondering why are we giving you all this money to develope hockey in this country (which a lot of it goes directly to the USNDP program) and your best players are coming outside of the USNDP....you really dont need our money, do you?

maybe USA Hockey needs to put USNDP alumni on this team for that fact alone.....to justify the money it gets from the NHL? way above my level of hockey knowledge, but just a thought none the less.

 

[WaltWhitman]

as for your last comment about holding a grudge, I think you are missing the point here. the point isnt these kids holding a grudge so why should we want them, the point is that more and more players will continue to say no to play for this country and we dummies will continue to make pre World Championship rosters with all these guys that "should" be playing but wont.

.

Be honest. Are you just mad because you were off by a couple players on your roster prediction? I admit I don't know the backstory of every kid that tried out for the team, so maybe that's why I'm not as emotionally invested as you seem to be.



Honestly, who cares. I don't care either way, but I have faith that Team USA chose the best TEAM they could. Maybe that means they didn't take the best 22 PLAYERS available.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

USA has a good team, Shane Prince is *NOT* the difference between gold, and not medaling at all....infact where does he fit on this team if it's not as a top 6 forward?

 

[Ban Hammered]

Kids are going to be pissed over not being picked but it does not mean the USNTDP has a bias against them. Are they more likely to go with kids they are more familiar with and have spent time on at the. USNTDP? Sure but this whole "bias" against other players is just sour grapes and if these players decide they don't want to represent their country if asked later because they weren't picked at this time then that's their issue but it won't be USA Hockey that would look bad for it.
I also agree that Shane Prince will not be a difference between any medal the US could win this year. He got cut and I'm sorry, but get over it.

 

[Rally Donkey]

....and in 5 years we will wonder why more of these kids who make it to the pros are turning down offers to play for the US in the World Championships...because many who come through the CHL route have and will continue to hold grudges towards USA Hockey. Cant wait for USA Hockey to call on Jared Knight in 3 years when they are desperate for players at the WC!! thats going to be priceless.

Can you imagine when these guys are playing in the NHL and having fantastic seasons? Everyone's expecting them to fall all over themselves to play for the Olympic team and they say, "go eff yourself." Better yet, they say "sure I'll play," and then they conveniently "forget" to board the flight on the way to opening ceremonies.

... you know more then anyone I love USA Hockey, but I can call it out when I see bullcrap things going on, and I hate to say it but it stinks to high heaven what has been going on with the selection process over the past 6-7 years, and is only looking slightly better because more USNDP alumni are playing in the CHL.

That's what I appreciate about AD - you call "bullcrap" but still give credit where it's due. You can root for the US and still shine a light on imperfections.

All of the kids this team who have CHL credentials got them AFTER playing on the NTDP, Hlinka, U18 or other USAH select team. USAH doesn't have enough teams to offer every Bantam an Ann Arbor locker stall, but they shouldn't hold it against those players. If a Bantam doesn't have a commitment from an NCAA school at 17 and he's playing AAA hockey, he's got to come up with another $10-20K (fees, equipment, travel) for one more year hoping that he'll have a commitment in his senior year. If he gets injured in his junior year, that scholarship is out the window. If he doesn't get invited to the NTDP and can't come up with the additional money for AAA/Travel, then his best option is the CHL cuz they're paying for his gear, ice, and education. But if he takes that offer, he's snubbed by USAH for the rest of this pre-NHL years. The US Program is excellent, but why are most of this team's players jumping over to the CHL instead of sticking with their college programs? I have my opinion on that, but what does USAH say about it?

Switching Gears
After seeing Smith-Pelly go down, the Hurricanes GM is looking like a genious - no way they could afford a similar fate with Faulk.

Trouba's looking feisty, Clendenning's looking a little lost, but Merril's like - "what time off?" LOL. Can't believe Gravel was back in the game after being knocked senseless- that seems a little irresponsible to me. I hope they put safety first - given all the recent attention to head injuires there's no reason to put an obviously concussed player back in the lineup in game that's nothign more than a warmup.

USA should win this if our D can tighten up and stay healthy. Hoping to see Gibson against Russia, and New Year's Eve is gonna be a freaking barn burner

 

[Ward Cornell]

USA has a good team, Shane Prince is *NOT* the difference between gold, and not medaling at all....infact where does he fit on this team if it's not as a top 6 forward?

I've defended USA Hockey in cutting Jared Knight but who ever said that Shane Prince wouldn't be a top 6 forward is IMHO wrong.
Shane Prince (once again IMHO) is not only a top 6 forward on Team USA but he would also be on every other team in the WJHC.

 

[PaulieVegas]

Mr. Ogrean (sorry, left the "r" out the first time) said the movie was very accurate with two exceptions: (1) the portrayal of Craig Patrick as some kind of unintellectual patsy; and (2) the notion that Herb Brooks already had the team picked when they went to camp and/or that no one other than Herb had any say-so in who ended up on the team. So...

 

[William H Bonney]

Connor Brickley is doubtful for tomorrow's game against Finland due to the cut he received on his leg.

 

[BJD]

how did merrill do the other day?

 

[Rally Donkey]

Finland 4 - USA 1

Here's an example of my argument that puck-moving defensemen need to be balanced with shut-down specialists - 1-4 vs Finland. The US could've used a little more "shut-down" tonight. In August at the first camp in Lake Placid, USA Team White beat Finland 4-1. Who was on that team and maybe we should have had the same guys tonight? It's going to be an uphill battle against Canada in their barn, but I hope Blais can figure this out quick.

 

[hubby1746]

Its a sin that Jared Knight isnt on this team.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Posted in the PGT, but will add here as well:

USA defense with the exception of Trouba looked pretty darn bad.

Also not overly impressed with some of the "big guns". Every play is grind, throw puck on net, hope for rebound, repeat. Really not a lot of vision, creativity, or puck movement.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Posted in the PGT, but will add here as well:

USA defense with the exception of Trouba looked pretty darn bad.

Also not overly impressed with some of the "big guns". Every play is grind, throw puck on net, hope for rebound, repeat. Really not a lot of vision, creativity, or puck movement.

This team misses Stepan badly.

 

[Kvashinator12]

This team misses Stepan badly.

That combined with the defense is absolutely awful. Two years in a row watching this tourney I've seen absolutely nothing from Derek Forbort. He looks absolutely horrendous out there. I don't feel comfortable when any of those guys are on the ice. They absolutely look lost.

When they won in 2009 you felt at ease with Fowler on the Ice or Warsofsky or Ramage or Donovan or Lashoff or Gardiner or Carlson, this year I get none of that feeling

 

[Joey Mac]

i know i'm a little late on this, but why isn't brock nelson on this years squad? injury or to old?

 

[Hunter Gathers]

That combined with the defense is absolutely awful. Two years in a row watching this tourney I've seen absolutely nothing from Derek Forbort. He looks absolutely horrendous out there. I don't feel comfortable when any of those guys are on the ice. They absolutely look lost.

When they won in 2009 you felt at ease with Fowler on the Ice or Warsofsky or Ramage or Donovan or Lashoff or Gardiner or Carlson, this year I get none of that feeling

Our defense is LOL-worthy. Everyone on it sucks. Forbort is a joke. The only one I remotely like is Johns.

 

[cagney]

Lots of problems for this group right now. I expected that with the defense but the offense isn't clicking and both goalies seem off to me compared to other times I've seen them. The inability to make plays or create dangerous scoring chances tonight was frustrating to watch.

It's too early to write the team off but the Czech game might be difficult if Mrazek plays as strong as he's capable of and the offense continues to be so ineffective. I wouldn't be surprised to see Canada dominate them the same way they did last year, though the score could be worse if the goaltending doesn't sort itself out. Either way, the path to a medal just got much, much harder.

I gotta say that I'm just so disappointed with the way this '92 defensive group has come along. I watched a good number of games from the U18 wjc's a few years back and they pretty much all seemed way better then than they do now.

 

[Garyboy]

Our defense is LOL-worthy. Everyone on it sucks. Forbort is a joke. The only one I remotely like is Johns.

You have to admit that Trouba played well.

 

[cagney]

You have to admit that Trouba played well.

He's one bright spot. I was worried with him cause I thought he had a hard time playing up at last years U18s but he's looking more like the player I saw that dominated in his own age group.

To be honest, seeing Trouba play as well as he has makes me feel the loss of Jones is bigger than most people realize. Jones might have very well been the top d-man on this team if he hadn't gotten injured. He just never makes the kind of mistakes guys like Forbort and Clendening were making tonight.

 

[DKH]

Be honest. Are you just mad because you were off by a couple players on your roster prediction? I admit I don't know the backstory of every kid that tried out for the team, so maybe that's why I'm not as emotionally invested as you seem to be.



Honestly, who cares. I don't care either way, but I have faith that Team USA chose the best TEAM they could. Maybe that means they didn't take the best 22 PLAYERS available.

You don't care, then why post. As for your faith in Team USA, Dean Blais loves you; me and a few folks around USA hockey, the college and Pro game agree with American Dream- and pretty sure he does not know these people.

In the end, you are going to believe what you want to believe anyways. As you said you don't know the background of these kids this story, and aren't emotionally involved so why even bother commenting.

Be honest, you have no clue.

edit- general comment and not intended for Walt, I have faith you don't know who these guys are

The comments I've heard even before the loss yesterday was FOUR players absolutely should have been on this team: Noesen, Knight, Trocheck, and Prince- no particular order; It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a poet to figure which four should not have been taken. If the US loses Friday they are done and hopefully this crap with USA hockey will be done with going forward. I like many of the kids on this team but if they are not going to medal in the end then this might be the best thing going forward. I still think USA will get the win they need, however, if not, Dean Blais is going to know what it feels like to throw up in your mouth as Bill Parcells liked to say after a tough loss.

 

[Kvashinator12]

Our defense is LOL-worthy. Everyone on it sucks. Forbort is a joke. The only one I remotely like is Johns.

I do like Johns a lot, and Trouba has played better than any of the older guys. I'm very unimpressed by the defense and even some of the forwards look clueless. Forbort is on a planet in a far off galaxy

 

[UvBnDatsyuked]

Here's an example of my argument that puck-moving defensemen need to be balanced with shut-down specialists - 1-4 vs Finland. The US could've used a little more "shut-down" tonight. In August at the first camp in Lake Placid, USA Team White beat Finland 4-1. Who was on that team and maybe we should have had the same guys tonight? It's going to be an uphill battle against Canada in their barn, but I hope Blais can figure this out quick.

Majority of this defensive unit is neither shut down nor puck moving.

They are though, US Dev team products

 

[Leaf Rocket]

boys how was merril with the loss aginst hte fins?

 

[Rally Donkey]

boys how was merril with the loss aginst hte fins?

It's so hard to judge defensemen without watching the game in person. Television usually only shows the the play around the puck. Watching the game in person, you can see the plays away from the puck which are, imho, every bit as important if not more so - because there are a lot more of them (plays away from the puck). When defenseman get involved in an offensive attack, rush the puck, or marshall the PP, they are particulary visible (esp on TV). That's why guys like Merrill have had such high profiles- because in addition to being defensively sound (typically), he is exceptionally poised and strong offensively. That being said, I didn't notice him much in the Finland game on TV. Maybe he had a good game, but in a 1-4 loss I highly doubt that anyone can convincingly arugue the US team played well or stood out in a good way - certainly not the defensive corps. Not only did the defense fail to shut down the Finns, they failed to contribute offensively. Not much good can be said about that. If you're not going to be good at one, you have to be amazing at the other, and the USA defense was not good at either last night.

As I predicted last year on this forum, and will regrettably predict again this year - without experienced defensemen against Canadian and Russan attacks (vis a vis the CHL), the US Team's chances for goald are slim. With a few CHL invites to the Lake Placid and Camrose camps, I thought this year would mark a return to sanity for the sake of US pride. I was wrong, and we still have no one other than Tinordi with more than a full season's worth of experience playing against the top forwards in the Word. Concidence that he was the MVP for the US last night? Maybe, but assuming the US gets past the Czech Republic (which they should), they are at a self-imposed disadvantage heading into the matchup against Canada. Strome, Stone, Jenner, Hamilton have all been successfully handled by other American CHL players who are not in this tournament. Same with both their goaltenders. Only recently have guys like Campbell and Miller been introduced to these players, but USAH thinks that doesn't matter.

We'll see if their strategy holds out, but Wedgewood is coming off a 26-save shut-out with an assist against the Czech Republic. He's hotter than Visentin, he's hotter than Campbell, he's hotter than Gibson, and he's playing in his own barn. When the competition's goalie gets as many points as your forwards, that's scary. If he's in net vs the US, we can start planning for next year during the anthems.