Speculation: TSN Will Brandon Pridham carve the future for the leafs acquiring LTIR's?

[biotk]

It's technically possible to do this, but the practical application does nothing at all but hurt the Leafs in every way imaginable.

Yup - it does nothing but hurt the Leafs. I mean if a team had an uninsured LTIR and was willing to pay the Leafs' a first to take it, then maybe.

 

[kb]

what did the leafs do during the beginning of the season when hyman and dermott were on ltir? did the leafs have to add their cap hits to the total and then place them on ltir?

Yes, that's exactly what they did.

 

[Legion34]

Sorry, I don't think I did a good job of explaining it.

First you need to add those 2 players and their cap hits to the active roster first, and with those 2 players (plus the other 18-21 players) , the Leafs must be under the cap threshold of $81.5 million. Short of trading many good players away, you could not fit Kesler and Gaborik (a total of $11.7 million) under the $81.5 million cap.

Currently the Leafs have almost $77 million in salary commitments for 16 players next season. If they acquired Gaborik and Kesler, their cap hit goes to $88.6 million for 18 players. So now the Leafs would be required to get under the $81.5 million cap with a 20 man roster. Even with 2 minimum contracts, that would push the Leafs to around a $90 million cap hit for a 20 man roster.

They have to be at no more than $81.5 million to start the season, so they need to shed at least $8.5 million in salary.....and still have 20 on the roster.

But it's not as simple as trading away $8.5 worth of salary. Each player traded for cap relief still needs to be replaced on the roster by another player who will have at least a league minimum cap hit. Trading away all of Kerfoot, Kapanen, and Johnsson would save $10 million off the $90 million cap hit, but now the roster would be at 17 with an $80 million cap hit. So even 3 minimum salary replacements for those 3 would still leave the Leafs over the cap at $82.1 million for 20 players. So another trade of someone with significant salary would be needed, to be replaced by someone who is at least $600k less of a cap hit

Only then could you access LTIR. And the worst part is, you couldn't get every penny of the LTIR room anyway, depending how far away the Leafs were from the upper limit of $81.5 million.

It's technically possible to do this, but the practical application does nothing at all but hurt the Leafs in every way imaginable.

Ok. Fair enough. Makes sense. I wasn’t calculating that taking on the cap would already put them over..


makes sense. I was just trying to figure out why he would suggest it

 

[kb]

Ok. Fair enough. Makes sense. I wasn’t calculating that taking on the cap would already put them over..


makes sense. I was just trying to figure out why he would suggest it

But as biotk mentioned, everything has it's price. If someone comes up to Dubas and offers up something sizable to take on an LTIR, the Leafs would have to weigh the pros and cons of being essentially locked out of cap accrual space at the deadline for the second year in a row.

 

[IPS]

No - it would not work. There is no free cap out there. People seem to think there is because they do not understand what happened last year with Marner and the LTIRs.

Still in disbelief that they gave Marner that kind of leverage.

 

[Legion34]

But as biotk mentioned, everything has it's price. If someone comes up to Dubas and offers up something sizable to take on an LTIR, the Leafs would have to weigh the pros and cons of being essentially locked out of cap accrual space at the deadline for the second year in a row.

yes. It has the benefit of potentially sweetening the deal to get an asset.


Like for example.

Player for Manson plus Kesler (2 million ish) or gaborik for a pick


But it doesn’t help the leafs sign more players now.

 

[Martin Skoula]

It completely has an upside if we are acquiring a 1st round pick or young player along with it ala Patrick Marleau to the Hurricanes

The Canes carried Marleau's 6.25 in dead cap hit, it wasn't LTIR. They just had less cap space for the year and had to pay Marleau a bunch of cash up front.

You would need to have a team sign a 35+ year old contract with term, an NMC, and considerable signing bonuses for this to work, and we'd need to have a bunch of cap space to sacrifice. I don't think that's going to happen, Lou doesn't have the cap space in Long Island to sign another ugly contract like that.

Knowing my luck though, I'm probably posting this right as a report comes out that the Islanders are interested in bringing Andy Greene back on a 4 year deal.

 

[Menzinger]

Stay away from LTIR contracts at all costs, as it hurts cap flexibility.

Having said that, if the Leafs are right at the cap with 20 players, and suffer a significant injury.....LTIR will be in play regardless of intent.

exactly, but of course totally different from seeking out new players fpr ltir, which doesnt help at all.

Then you have potrntial Compliance buyouts which is a totally different ballgame, but thats not being discussed here

 

[joe dirte]

Sorry, I don't think I did a good job of explaining it.

First you need to add those 2 players and their cap hits to the active roster first, and with those 2 players (plus the other 18-21 players) , the Leafs must be under the cap threshold of $81.5 million. Short of trading many good players away, you could not fit Kesler and Gaborik (a total of $11.7 million) under the $81.5 million cap.

Currently the Leafs have almost $77 million in salary commitments for 16 players next season. If they acquired Gaborik and Kesler, their cap hit goes to $88.6 million for 18 players. So now the Leafs would be required to get under the $81.5 million cap with a 20 man roster. Even with 2 minimum contracts, that would push the Leafs to around a $90 million cap hit for a 20 man roster.

They have to be at no more than $81.5 million to start the season, so they need to shed at least $8.5 million in salary.....and still have 20 on the roster.

But it's not as simple as trading away $8.5 worth of salary. Each player traded for cap relief still needs to be replaced on the roster by another player who will have at least a league minimum cap hit. Trading away all of Kerfoot, Kapanen, and Johnsson would save $10 million off the $90 million cap hit, but now the roster would be at 17 with an $80 million cap hit. So even 3 minimum salary replacements for those 3 would still leave the Leafs over the cap at $82.1 million for 20 players. So another trade of someone with significant salary would be needed, to be replaced by someone who is at least $600k less of a cap hit

Only then could you access LTIR. And the worst part is, you couldn't get every penny of the LTIR room anyway, depending how far away the Leafs were from the upper limit of $81.5 million.

It's technically possible to do this, but the practical application does nothing at all but hurt the Leafs in every way imaginable.

I dont think this is accurate either. You can go up to 10% over the cap in the offseason, and they changed the rules so you can put players on LTIR before the season starts a couple of years ago. They could add more LTIR contracts, it just means they have no real cap space accruing for the entire season, yet again. They do'nt have to dump anyone to do it though.

 

[kb]

I dont think this is accurate either. You can go up to 10% over the cap in the offseason, and they changed the rules so you can put players on LTIR before the season starts a couple of years ago. They could add more LTIR contracts, it just means they have no real cap space accruing for the entire season, yet again. They do'nt have to dump anyone to do it though.

It's accurate. Yes, you can go over the cap 10% during the summer - and even use LTIR, but that doesn't change the fact every team using LTIR still has to be fully cap compliant on season opening day to set the ACSL (accruable cap space limit) for the season.

 

[joe dirte]

It's accurate. Yes, you can go over the cap 10% during the summer - and even use LTIR, but that doesn't change the fact every team using LTIR still has to be fully cap compliant on season opening day to set the ACSL (accruable cap space limit) for the season.

Yeah and you can be cap compliant with a cap roster and extra players on LTIR.

 

[kb]

Yeah and you can be cap compliant with a cap roster and extra players on LTIR.

Yes, before and after season opening day. Season opening day the team needs to be cap compliant to set the ACSL, and then people can be put on LTIR, and backfilled for.

But LTIR hurts the Leafs, not helps.

Forget all the moves you have to do to make the Leafs cap compliant (and ignore the CBA entirely), and this is how it plays out financially.....they are currently at $77 million for 17 players. They go acquire Kesler, and now are over the cap at almost $84 million for 18 players. Put him on LTIR you say? Great, no problem.....except they are now back at the very same $77 million for very same 17 players and lost the ability to accrue cap space.

LTIR is not a get out of jail free card, and the only reason(s) Clarkson's contract was traded for last summer was to ensure the Leafs were able to set the ACSL as close to $81.5 million as possible. Without that, there is no way they could have fit the Marner contract in.

 

[rent free]

exactly, but of course totally different from seeking out new players fpr ltir, which doesnt help at all.

Then you have potrntial Compliance buyouts which is a totally different ballgame, but thats not being discussed here

owners are against compliance buyouts on all accounts per freidman so i don't think we're gonna be playing that ballgame

 

[joe dirte]

Yes, before and after season opening day. Season opening day the team needs to be cap compliant to set the ACSL, and then people can be put on LTIR, and backfilled for.

But LTIR hurts the Leafs, not helps.

Forget all the moves you have to do to make the Leafs cap compliant (and ignore the CBA entirely), and this is how it plays out financially.....they are currently at $77 million for 17 players. They go acquire Kesler, and now are over the cap at almost $84 million for 18 players. Put him on LTIR you say? Great, no problem.....except they are now back at the very same $77 million for very same 17 players and lost the ability to accrue cap space.

LTIR is not a get out of jail free card, and the only reason(s) Clarkson's contract was traded for last summer was to ensure the Leafs were able to set the ACSL as close to $81.5 million as possible. Without that, there is no way they could have fit the Marner contract in.

I’m fully aware you don’t get more cap space because of the acquired contract. You get either less or zero depending on where you stand prior. All I’m saying is I don’t think you have to dump players to do it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Still in disbelief that they gave Marner that kind of leverage.

It had nothing to do with giving Marner leverage.

 

[Dave92]

Revenue is gonna be down massively next year. Im sure the Execs will love that Dubas needs an additional 20 million in uninsured contracts to stay competitive.

On the other hand poorer teams may be desperate to shed salary they cant afford.

 

[kb]

Revenue is gonna be down massively next year. Im sure the Execs will love that Dubas needs an additional 20 million in uninsured contracts to stay competitive.

Glad you so aptly demonstrated your knowledge on that subject.

 

[kb]

I’m fully aware you don’t get more cap space because of the acquired contract. You get either less or zero depending on where you stand prior. All I’m saying is I don’t think you have to dump players to do it.

You do have to dump someone, or not sign the RFA's.

The whole argument was that you do something like acquire someone like Kesler so they have the room to sign the RFA's with the cap space when he goes on LTIR. This is incorrect.

To add Kesler, lets say they end up leaving Kerfoot and Johnsson and their cap hits off the roster for opening Day. The Leafs then sign Mikheyev, Dermott, and Clifford equal to Kesler's cap.

Here is the issue. Look at the above closely. When you put Kesler on LTIR, you get his cap hit (if lucky), but you did that by leaving Johnsson/Kerfoot and their cap hits off the roster, but now you have to add those back in along with the cap hits of Mikheyev, Dermott, and Clifford. That puts the Leafs almost $7 million over the cap.

 

[Mickey Marner]

^^^
You can't even do that because both Kerfoot and Johnsson (unless on the LTIR themselves) would have to clear waivers and each only buys you 1.075 AAV of cap space in the minors.

 

[kb]

^^^
You can't even do that because both Kerfoot and Johnsson (unless on the LTIR themselves) would have to clear waivers and each only buys you 1.075 AAV of cap space in the minors.

Exactly....trading for LTIR players would be so bad for them. Which is why articles in the press like the one the OP started this thread on shouldn't be blindly followed.

 

[joe dirte]

You do have to dump someone, or not sign the RFA's.

The whole argument was that you do something like acquire someone like Kesler so they have the room to sign the RFA's with the cap space when he goes on LTIR. This is incorrect.

To add Kesler, lets say they end up leaving Kerfoot and Johnsson and their cap hits off the roster for opening Day. The Leafs then sign Mikheyev, Dermott, and Clifford equal to Kesler's cap.

Here is the issue. Look at the above closely. When you put Kesler on LTIR, you get his cap hit (if lucky), but you did that by leaving Johnsson/Kerfoot and their cap hits off the roster, but now you have to add those back in along with the cap hits of Mikheyev, Dermott, and Clifford. That puts the Leafs almost $7 million over the cap.

Only if they were almost 7 mil over the cap before acquiring kesler though. Sort of.

Techinically the way its written, if theyre at the cap, with johnson and kerfoot on roster, and they pick up kesler, theyre over by the amiunt of keslers contract, but their cap also rises by the amount of keslers contract. Net effect, not very much. If they had any remaining cap space it would then be gone.

 

[Mess]

Last year without the Clarkson contract the Leafs could not have fit Marner's contract under the salary cap of $81.5 mil and began the season being cap complaint, as nearly his full contract was offset by Horton and Clarkson LTIR that was pushed above the hard cap ceiling by $10.5 mil allowing Leafs contracts to total $92 mil at the time, with then Dermott and Hyman starting on LTIR it was bumped to $95 mil.

In a Salary Cap world with an upper limit of $81.5 mil the Leafs cap hit (with LTIR contracts) FINAL CAP HIT

: $95,178,332 mil, of which the Leafs utilized LTIR USED

: $13,678,332

Which is $10 mil more than any other team of Arizona FINAL CAP HIT

: $85,089,798.

When you spend your team into Cap Hell, desperate times lead to desperate measures !!!.

Without LTIR contracts this year since both Horton and Clarkson come off the books the Leafs will be bound by the upper limit of the hard cap ceiling.

 

[Beaumaris]

That's actually not exactly how it works. Small difference, but they DO count against the cap, you just have a higher cap, by the amount of LTIR contracts, and you don't accrue cap space in the same manner as if you're under. If the cap is $80M and you have $70M in contracts, at trade deadline, you can acquire players with something like $30M in annual cap hit, because the only cap hit that counts is the amount after trade. If you have $80M in cap hit, in the same scenario, but $10M of that is LTIR, you don't accumulate any cap space and you can't acquire anyone at the deadline.

The players on LTIR still count against the cap, but you only get cap space back IF you exceed the cap (and by exactly the amount you exceed).

Well that clears that up.

 

[joe dirte]

Well that clears that up.

Its confusing and there is a good reason they pay people to know it.

Hard to explain. But let me try piece by piece.

Lets say you have 70 mil in contracts thatvare all non LTIR. And one player that is LTIR at 5 mil. Your cap hit for the team is 75 mil. Lets say there is an 80 mil cap. Youvhave 5 mil in space.

At the trade deadline, you can take on 5 mil in space. At roughly 30% of the season left, you can take on a 16.3 mil player (or combo of players). Technically a little more but lets not go into that. 5 mil / 30% = 16.3 mil.

Now lets say, same scenario, before the season starts, you add in an 8 mil per year cap hit player. Your cap hit is now 83 mil. With an NHL cap of 80 mil. Your teams cap hit becomes 83 mil. This is because your teams cap hit only rises by the amount youre exceeding the cap. (And cant be more than your LTIR total). so yiu cant exceed the cap by more than 5 mil. Butbyour new cap does not become 85 mil.

How is that different? This part is key. If your new cap was 85 mil becausenof the 5 mil LTIR, and youre onlybsoending 83, you would be 2 mil under the cap, and you accumulate that cap spacet. You can use it at the deadline. But your new cap is NOT 85 mil, its only 83 mil. I.e. toure deemed to be at the cap and you dont accumulate any usuable space.

Ita an important difference because it enables contending teams that are inder the cap to pick up elite players on expiring contracts. And its also why players, especially those with expiring contracts, go for a premium at the deadline. (Not necessarily JUST expirimg contracts butbthe following season youre hit with full cap so yiu have to be able to fit the player in).

 

[rent free]

Its confusing and there is a good reason they pay people to know it.

Hard to explain. But let me try piece by piece.

Lets say you have 70 mil in contracts thatvare all non LTIR. And one player that is LTIR at 5 mil. Your cap hit for the team is 75 mil. Lets say there is an 80 mil cap. Youvhave 5 mil in space.

At the trade deadline, you can take on 5 mil in space. At roughly 30% of the season left, you can take on a 16.3 mil player (or combo of players). Technically a little more but lets not go into that. 5 mil / 30% = 16.3 mil.

Now lets say, same scenario, before the season starts, you add in an 8 mil per year cap hit player. Your cap hit is now 83 mil. With an NHL cap of 80 mil. Your teams cap hit becomes 83 mil. This is because your teams cap hit only rises by the amount youre exceeding the cap. (And cant be more than your LTIR total). so yiu cant exceed the cap by more than 5 mil. Butbyour new cap does not become 85 mil.

How is that different? This part is key. If your new cap was 85 mil becausenof the 5 mil LTIR, and youre onlybsoending 83, you would be 2 mil under the cap, and you accumulate that cap spacet. You can use it at the deadline. But your new cap is NOT 85 mil, its only 83 mil. I.e. toure deemed to be at the cap and you dont accumulate any usuable space.

Ita an important difference because it enables contending teams that are inder the cap to pick up elite players on expiring contracts. And its also why players, especially those with expiring contracts, go for a premium at the deadline. (Not necessarily JUST expirimg contracts butbthe following season youre hit with full cap so yiu have to be able to fit the player in).

why would you only have 16.3 M in cap by the trade deadline? shouldn't you have 70% of each players cap hit in cap space, because every players cap hit is only 30 percent of what it was at the beginning of the season?