Speculation: TSN Will Brandon Pridham carve the future for the leafs acquiring LTIR's?

[ottomaddox]

Expect the Toronto Maple Leafs to hunt for more LTIR contracts - TSN.ca

Best Quote:

"Their
flexibility grew when Ilya Mikheyev and Andreas Johnsson went down with injuries and even allowed the Leafs to essentially purchase a 5th-round pick from Vegas to retain a portion of Robin Lehner’s salary ($249,000) on trade deadline day.
Now, with Horton and Clarkson mercifully sliding into the sunset, the Leafs will likely be on the hunt for replacement LTIR contracts to enjoy the same cap benefits."

Click to read more...

 

[joe dirte]

Yeah,I saw this. My understanding of this stuff was that when you're at or over the cap, including LTIR contracts, you're better off acquiring more. When you're under the cap, you're not. I thought with Horton and Clarkson coming off the cap, they'd be under, and it's not worthwhile anymore.

I guess I'm wrong?

It's pretty comical the Leafs paid out $30M more than the cap, in real dollars.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

No.. Those LTIR contracts killed us this year. We needed them so we could accrue cap space had Marner not signed until December like Nylander did.

With him signing right before camp it screwed us into not being able to gain cap space in season with all the injuries we had.

It's such a misconception that adding an LTIR contract magically allows you to spend over the cap. You still spend the same amount, just the LTIR contract doesn't count against it.

If there is a Horton type of deal that is uninsured and costs teams real money, then I can see us prying one of those for an asset or two. But I think we're done with the Clarkson deals.

 

[ottomaddox]

No.. Those LTIR contracts killed us this year. We needed them so we could accrue cap space had Marner not signed until December like Nylander did.

With him signing right before camp it screwed us into not being able to gain cap space in season with all the injuries we had.

It's such a misconception that adding an LTIR contract magically allows you to spend over the cap. You still spend the same amount, just the LTIR contract doesn't count against it.

If there is a Horton type of deal that is uninsured and costs teams real money, then I can see us prying one of those for an asset or two. But I think we're done with the Clarkson deals.

It's more about gaining assets in order to take on these financial burdens. I'm certain Dubas would like to recover a draft pick or two.

Perhaps your right though. Someone some day might say: "This organization will no longer have money burn up the chimney."

 

[ACC1224]

It was decided yesterday that the author of this opinion doesn't understand the CBA.

That article funny enough was just recently discussed in the Free Agency thread.

The author doesnt seem to understand how LTIR works, so im not sure id take him as an authority on any cap Leafs issues. It makes zero sense acquiring any new ltir contracts beacuse it doesnt actually save the Leafs anything....

 

[Dekes For Days]

This is not how LTIR works. There is no reason for the Leafs to acquire more at this point. It doesn't save cap. Sports media is just horrible and doesn't know anything about anything.

 

[deletethis]

More agreement with the other posters: if you have LTIRs that already put you to the cap ceiling then it's beneficial asset management to acquire more if you have financial means. Otherwise there's no benefit to begin the LTIR cap ceiling dance until you're burdened with unusable injured players.

 

[joe dirte]

No.. Those LTIR contracts killed us this year. We needed them so we could accrue cap space had Marner not signed until December like Nylander did.

With him signing right before camp it screwed us into not being able to gain cap space in season with all the injuries we had.

It's such a misconception that adding an LTIR contract magically allows you to spend over the cap. You still spend the same amount, just the LTIR contract doesn't count against it.

If there is a Horton type of deal that is uninsured and costs teams real money, then I can see us prying one of those for an asset or two. But I think we're done with the Clarkson deals.

That's actually not exactly how it works. Small difference, but they DO count against the cap, you just have a higher cap, by the amount of LTIR contracts, and you don't accrue cap space in the same manner as if you're under. If the cap is $80M and you have $70M in contracts, at trade deadline, you can acquire players with something like $30M in annual cap hit, because the only cap hit that counts is the amount after trade. If you have $80M in cap hit, in the same scenario, but $10M of that is LTIR, you don't accumulate any cap space and you can't acquire anyone at the deadline.

The players on LTIR still count against the cap, but you only get cap space back IF you exceed the cap (and by exactly the amount you exceed).

 

[GBLeaf]

My understanding was that, if the players are on LTIR, then the benefit for a team like the Leafs is not financial/cap based, but that they can essentially 'buy' picks.

Pick someone up on LTIR, it doesn't count on the cap during the season, and get paid in picks.

It's just whether they value paying 'real' dollars to purchase picks.

 

[deletethis]

This Frank Seravalli character reminds me of out of touch Hockey News (former Toronto Star) hockey writer Ken Campbell. The internet/social media is hard on these media guys who don't keep up. The traditional media is getting distilled down to a few lawyery smart cookies and a legion of attention seekers and gossips who know enough to stay clear of the technical stuff.

 

[TOGuy14]

Friedman just had a note in his 31 Thoughts yesterday that specifically said the Leafs don't want to go down the LTIR road in the future...


31 Thoughts: How a 24-team NHL playoff structure could work - Sportsnet.ca

4. I’m also not sure the Maple Leafs are too eager to flirt with LTIR once again. They knew they were starting last year without Travis Dermott and Zach Hyman. It wasn’t an easy dance for them — or Vegas — last season.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Whatever it takes to get best lineup we can get. But financially I am not sure our Leafs will have a boatload next season. Without fans (or few) in da stands there is no advantage. The media deal is split between all teams. And sponsors are going to be tighter with their $$$ with no fans to view our advertising. No food. No drinks. No parking. Little merch. My gut says we don't play in LTIR next season. Next season will be survival mode for NHL.

 

[TML1967]

In the end, what did the Leafs actually gain by adding bad contracts over the last year or two?
Genuine question, I cant think of anything off the top of my head.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

In the end, what did the Leafs actually gain by adding bad contracts over the last year or two?
Genuine question, I cant think of anything off the top of my head.

A few picks and it was a little bit easier for us to navigate the existing Horton contract.

Now that Horton is off of the books, there is little to no benefit. Essentially we could have teams pay us, but I doubt it would be enough to make it worthwhile.

However in that article, he suggests the Leafs should be paying to acquire those guys and that it would benefit them, when really it would only hurt us. Not only would we have to pay the (small and insignificant) salaries, but it hurts our cap situation and we somehow lose assets to do so?

Let the poor teams who need to cut money pay to acquire those contracts.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

That's actually not exactly how it works. Small difference, but they DO count against the cap, you just have a higher cap, by the amount of LTIR contracts, and you don't accrue cap space in the same manner as if you're under. If the cap is $80M and you have $70M in contracts, at trade deadline, you can acquire players with something like $30M in annual cap hit, because the only cap hit that counts is the amount after trade. If you have $80M in cap hit, in the same scenario, but $10M of that is LTIR, you don't accumulate any cap space and you can't acquire anyone at the deadline.

The players on LTIR still count against the cap, but you only get cap space back IF you exceed the cap (and by exactly the amount you exceed).

We are at the cap ceiling or will be after a couple signing we need done. The scenario just doesn’t work the way this guy is saying it does. He gets paid for this stupidity too. Wonderful

 

[rent free]

Yeah,I saw this. My understanding of this stuff was that when you're at or over the cap, including LTIR contracts, you're better off acquiring more. When you're under the cap, you're not. I thought with Horton and Clarkson coming off the cap, they'd be under, and it's not worthwhile anymore.

I guess I'm wrong?

It's pretty comical the Leafs paid out $30M more than the cap, in real dollars.

what if you're at the cap without ltir contracts? whats the best thing to do? this is what the leafs will be facing this upcoming season

 

[kb]

what if you're at the cap without ltir contracts? whats the best thing to do? this is what the leafs will be facing this upcoming season

Stay away from LTIR contracts at all costs, as it hurts cap flexibility.

Having said that, if the Leafs are right at the cap with 20 players, and suffer a significant injury.....LTIR will be in play regardless of intent.

 

[Legion34]

Friedman just had a note in his 31 Thoughts yesterday that specifically said the Leafs don't want to go down the LTIR road in the future...


31 Thoughts: How a 24-team NHL playoff structure could work - Sportsnet.ca

i “think” the only way it could work would be to wait to sign all ufa/RFA on day 1.

And then put contracts on LTIR.....


So take Kesler and Gaborik. Put them on LTIR day 1. Now you have 10 million to sign dermott, mikaheyev, Spezza. Etc......


Would that work?

 

[kb]

i “think” the only way it could work would be to wait to sign all ufa/RFA on day 1.

And then put contracts on LTIR.....


So take Kesler and Gaborik. Put them on LTIR day 1. Now you have 10 million to sign dermott, mikaheyev, Spezza. Etc......


Would that work?

You have to add Kesler and Gaborik and their cap hits to the active roster first, and the Leafs would have to be cap compliant with them on the roster before you can put them on LTIR. Plus the Leafs would be unable to accrue any cap space for the deadline.

They will want to avoid LTIR at all costs if they can.

 

[Legion34]

You have to add Kesler and Gaborik and their cap hits to the active roster first, and the Leafs would have to be cap compliant with them on the roster before you can put them on LTIR. Plus the Leafs would be unable to accrue any cap space for the deadline.

They will want to avoid LTIR at all costs if they can.

Yes. That’s what I mean.

If soup and dermott and Spezza etc are “unsigned” on the first day. Then you can fit whoever on LTIR. They are free agents.

then when that player is on LTIR. You sign those player’s. Would you not in theory get cap space then?

If marner signed in October we could then use all of hortons space right?

same thing. I’m not saying it’s likely. I’m asking if tech possibly.

 

[Mickey Marner]

No thanks, LTIR contracts are detrimental, not beneficial.

 

[Muston Atthews]

It completely has an upside if we are acquiring a 1st round pick or young player along with it ala Patrick Marleau to the Hurricanes

 

[kb]

Yes. That’s what I mean.

If soup and dermott and Spezza etc are “unsigned” on the first day. Then you can fit whoever on LTIR. They are free agents.

then when that player is on LTIR. You sign those player’s. Would you not in theory get cap space then?

If marner signed in October we could then use all of hortons space right?

same thing. I’m not saying it’s likely. I’m asking if tech possibly.

Sorry, I don't think I did a good job of explaining it.

First you need to add those 2 players and their cap hits to the active roster first, and with those 2 players (plus the other 18-21 players) , the Leafs must be under the cap threshold of $81.5 million. Short of trading many good players away, you could not fit Kesler and Gaborik (a total of $11.7 million) under the $81.5 million cap.

Currently the Leafs have almost $77 million in salary commitments for 16 players next season. If they acquired Gaborik and Kesler, their cap hit goes to $88.6 million for 18 players. So now the Leafs would be required to get under the $81.5 million cap with a 20 man roster. Even with 2 minimum contracts, that would push the Leafs to around a $90 million cap hit for a 20 man roster.

They have to be at no more than $81.5 million to start the season, so they need to shed at least $8.5 million in salary.....and still have 20 on the roster.

But it's not as simple as trading away $8.5 worth of salary. Each player traded for cap relief still needs to be replaced on the roster by another player who will have at least a league minimum cap hit. Trading away all of Kerfoot, Kapanen, and Johnsson would save $10 million off the $90 million cap hit, but now the roster would be at 17 with an $80 million cap hit. So even 3 minimum salary replacements for those 3 would still leave the Leafs over the cap at $82.1 million for 20 players. So another trade of someone with significant salary would be needed, to be replaced by someone who is at least $600k less of a cap hit

Only then could you access LTIR. And the worst part is, you couldn't get every penny of the LTIR room anyway, depending how far away the Leafs were from the upper limit of $81.5 million.

It's technically possible to do this, but the practical application does nothing at all but hurt the Leafs in every way imaginable.

 

[biotk]

i “think” the only way it could work would be to wait to sign all ufa/RFA on day 1.

And then put contracts on LTIR.....


So take Kesler and Gaborik. Put them on LTIR day 1. Now you have 10 million to sign dermott, mikaheyev, Spezza. Etc......


Would that work?

No - it would not work. There is no free cap out there. People seem to think there is because they do not understand what happened last year with Marner and the LTIRs.

 

[rent free]

Sorry, I don't think I did a good job of explaining it.

First you need to add those 2 players and their cap hits to the active roster first, and with those 2 players (plus the other 18-21 players) , the Leafs must be under the cap threshold of $81.5 million. Short of trading many good players away, you could not fit Kesler and Gaborik (a total of $11.7 million) under the $81.5 million cap.

Currently the Leafs have almost $77 million in salary commitments for 16 players next season. If they acquired Gaborik and Kesler, their cap hit goes to $88.6 million for 18 players. So now the Leafs would be required to get under the $81.5 million cap with a 20 man roster. Even with 2 minimum contracts, that would push the Leafs to around a $90 million cap hit for a 20 man roster.

They have to be at no more than $81.5 million to start the season, so they need to shed at least $8.5 million in salary.....and still have 20 on the roster.

But it's not as simple as trading away $8.5 worth of salary. Each player traded for cap relief still needs to be replaced on the roster by another player who will have at least a league minimum cap hit. Trading away all of Kerfoot, Kapanen, and Johnsson would save $10 million, but the roster would be at 17 with an $80 million cap hit. So even 3 minimum salary replacements for those 3 would still leave the Leafs over the cap at $82.1 million for 20 players. So another trade of someone with significant salary would be needed, to be replaced by someone who is at least $600k less of a cap hit

Only then could you access LTIR. And the worst part is, you couldn't get every penny of the LTIR room anyway, depending how far away the Leafs were from the upper limit of $81.5 million.

It's technically possible to do this, but the practical application does nothing at all but hurt the Leafs in every way imaginable.

what did the leafs do during the beginning of the season when hyman and dermott were on ltir? did the leafs have to add their cap hits to the total and then place them on ltir?