Trevor Timmins - The day they made me draft Louis Leblanc....

[Whitesnake]

I don't have to try harder, you clearly have an axe to grind with Timmins, do you not see it? So much you have to put words in mouth that weren't there. I never said I prefer quantity than quality but I don't discount quantity. I look at quality when we draft in the top 10/15, I don't expect to find it outside of the top 10 to the point that I think a scout is not doing a good job if he doesn't get quality outside the top 10/15. Granted if you find a Gallagher or a Halak late in the draft that's great. But of course quality over quantity but it doesn't mean you aren't doing a good job in context if you have quantity.

I don't look at one player from another team and say how much better they are then our picks like Hudon, Lehkonen, Mete, etc.. I look at what we have and what they can do for us.

Don't agree about the NCHC being a weaker division. SCSU compares well with Notre Dame, both were at the top of the rankings all season long. Denver compares well with Ohio St, they had the best player in the NCAA and were last years National Champs, they had one heck of a team. Then you have North Dakota, UMD, etc.. Western Michigan was doing well all season until the end, Minnesota didn't have a good year hence their coach was let go after all those years and he gets replaced by SCSU's coach. Mittlestadt should be much better then Poehling since one was picked 8th and the other 25th but both put up the same numbers, both were among their teams leading scorers. Mittlestadt clearly highly skilled, Poehling a more complete player. We'll see where they end up but Poehling is certainly looking like a very good pick for where he was picked.

And why would that grind be since I don't know the guy personnally. So my analysis is solely based on what he has done. So not sure how you don't see that. You never said you prefer quantity but everytime we discuss Timmins, that's all you keep repeating. The number of players he picked. So it's not a question of just not discounting it...it's your primairy reason of why he's so good. And it's flawed. Timmins not only has to be good. BUt in Montreal we need to have better than good. 'Cause we have a management who won't want to tank. So getting top 5 all over, we can't do that. Then, in Montreal, you can't get top UFA. And the trades to get top players are tougher. So you need to be great. And if you look and have the right strategy, you surely can. Boston build their team on not picking top 10. Rask is #20. Pastrnak is #25. Bergeron is #45, Krejci is #63, Lucic was #50, Marchand is #71, Donato is #56, Heinen is #116, DeBrusk and MacAvoy are #14, Carlo #37. I'd take over the Habs list that surely contains 20 10 or 15 more players.

So yes, we should look at what we have and what they can do for us. Which, as of now, not a whole lot. Nobody can say that he did enough with the record we have. As of now, it's not like we f***ed up all of our superstars picks for nothing. We did that for McDonagh. And while it was indeed a terrible trade, still Gomez and Co gave us 1 3rd round....something we haven't seen a lot in 25 years. But we did screw up with McDonagh. And this year, it looks like we screwed up with Sergachev becuase we didn't give Drouin an environment to work on. But that's it. Everything else are either still here or didn't have a great enough value to be traded for something significant. And while we can all think that it's Timmins or the development, this is impossible to know. But at one point, after 15 years and not a lot to show for.....you have to freakin move on. If that's an ax to grind....strangely we have less patience for other members of the organization....Michel Therrien still has a winning record. And yet, we would have fired him the year after we hired him.....Somehow, Timmins is there for 15 years with ordinairy results and wanting him out is an ax to grind....

 

[montreal]

And why would that grind be since I don't know the guy personnally. So my analysis is solely based on what he has done. So not sure how you don't see that. You never said you prefer quantity but everytime we discuss Timmins, that's all you keep repeating. The number of players he picked. So it's not a question of just not discounting it...it's your primairy reason of why he's so good. And it's flawed. Timmins not only has to be good. BUt in Montreal we need to have better than good. 'Cause we have a management who won't want to tank. So getting top 5 all over, we can't do that. Then, in Montreal, you can't get top UFA. And the trades to get top players are tougher. So you need to be great. And if you look and have the right strategy, you surely can. Boston build their team on not picking top 10. Rask is #20. Pastrnak is #25. Bergeron is #45, Krejci is #63, Lucic was #50, Marchand is #71, Donato is #56, Heinen is #116, DeBrusk and MacAvoy are #14, Carlo #37. I'd take over the Habs list that surely contains 20 10 or 15 more players.

So yes, we should look at what we have and what they can do for us. Which, as of now, not a whole lot. Nobody can say that he did enough with the record we have. As of now, it's not like we ****ed up all of our superstars picks for nothing. We did that for McDonagh. And while it was indeed a terrible trade, still Gomez and Co gave us 1 3rd round....something we haven't seen a lot in 25 years. But we did screw up with McDonagh. And this year, it looks like we screwed up with Sergachev becuase we didn't give Drouin an environment to work on. But that's it. Everything else are either still here or didn't have a great enough value to be traded for something significant. And while we can all think that it's Timmins or the development, this is impossible to know. But at one point, after 15 years and not a lot to show for.....you have to freakin move on. If that's an ax to grind....strangely we have less patience for other members of the organization....Michel Therrien still has a winning record. And yet, we would have fired him the year after we hired him.....Somehow, Timmins is there for 15 years with ordinairy results and wanting him out is an ax to grind....

right, so you are saying you don't have an axe to grind which not knowing his personally doesn't mean shit, since that doesn't stop many posters around here from MT, DD, MB, etc... People have basis when things are going badly or not how they want it to. If there's a post about Timmins saying something positive, you can bet that most likely you will be there to counter that post. I guess you don't see it.

Again just making stuff up. I never said any of that. I think Timmins is good because he's picked Subban, Price, McDonagh, Pac, Gallagher, Sergachev, Galchenyuk, Halak, etc... I look at where he's picked, how many picks, and who he's picked. I fully admit that I could be wrong, maybe he's not as good as I think he is, I've said many many times where I think he's made mistakes and he's had some brutal drafts but when I look at the stats on players making the NHL after being drafted outside the top 10/20/30 etc.. I take it all into context. I don't look at boston and say they did it better then us, I look at what Timmins did.

I also could be very wrong about the development issues. Maybe it's more Timmins and less on Lefebvre, management for calling them up too soon, etc... When I see the decisions Lefebvre makes, when I see 19/20 year olds called up, put on the 4th line, benched for little mistakes, I tend to look at that and wonder what might have been had things been done better on the development side especially since I think Timmins has looked better when we seemed to develop players better in the AHL and NHL.

 

[Whitesnake]

right, so you are saying you don't have an axe to grind which not knowing his personally doesn't mean ****, since that doesn't stop many posters around here from MT, DD, MB, etc... People have basis when things are going badly or not how they want it to. If there's a post about Timmins saying something positive, you can bet that most likely you will be there to counter that post. I guess you don't see it.

Again just making stuff up. I never said any of that. I think Timmins is good because he's picked Subban, Price, McDonagh, Pac, Gallagher, Sergachev, Galchenyuk, Halak, etc... I look at where he's picked, how many picks, and who he's picked. I fully admit that I could be wrong, maybe he's not as good as I think he is, I've said many many times where I think he's made mistakes and he's had some brutal drafts but when I look at the stats on players making the NHL after being drafted outside the top 10/20/30 etc.. I take it all into context. I don't look at boston and say they did it better then us, I look at what Timmins did.

I also could be very wrong about the development issues. Maybe it's more Timmins and less on Lefebvre, management for calling them up too soon, etc... When I see the decisions Lefebvre makes, when I see 19/20 year olds called up, put on the 4th line, benched for little mistakes, I tend to look at that and wonder what might have been had things been done better on the development side especially since I think Timmins has looked better when we seemed to develop players better in the AHL and NHL.

It's not having an axe to grind. It's called having an opinion. I think it's time to move on. I have argumentations for that. I have no idea where you are going with this. Of course I will counter attack with things I don't like...'cause it's actually my opinion that it's time for him to go based on everything I keep saying. I actually can't think he's great if I actually don't think he is not. I have continuously said that he did great things in the past. So if people say that 2007 was great. I'd say it is. If people say that 2004 draft was actually fine, I'd respond it was. If people say that he found some great gems late in the rounds from 2003 to 2007, I'd say he sure did. Why? 'Cause that's actually what I thought and actually what happened. But nobody can say he did great since 2008. It's impossible. So I don't think he did. So if somebody would come up to me and say how great he is even since 2008....how the heck should I say he sure did when I don't think he did?

You don't want to look at everybody else? Fine. But then, nobody, and I'm not saying you did, can say that it's IMPOSSIBLE to find great top end players after the top 5 as I prove Boston did and quite a few of other teams did. Nashville build their WHOLE defense with everybody BUT a top 5 pick. Geez, not only outside the top 5 pick, but outside the first round except Ryan Ellis. Who is surely their #4 d-man. Even Carolina who is missing a lot of things up front, has build their defense with 3 guys outside the 1st round and Hanifin.

Everytime I say that it's time for Timmins to go, I keep being told no 'cause he is great 'cause he picked Subban, Price, McDonagh, Pac, Gallagher, Sergachev, Galchenyuk, Halak etc. (tell me you didn't say that now...). And my reply to this was....well most of those guys are pre 2007. 11 freakin years ago. Yes, 2008 he didn't have a 1st round to work with, but he had a 2nd....but it was still possible to find something in 2008. At every pick we made. Same with 2009. Same in 2011.

The same reasons you gave to show how greate Timmins are, which is his gems in later rounds pre-2007, somehow, we excuse him when he was not able to do the same post 2007. The quantity he build pre 2007, was made out of outside the 1st round. Why wasn't he able to do the same after? Why do we think he was great for all of that....but why do we say it's not his fault after that 'cause he didn't have a lot to work with. He used a 271 for Halak. Used a 150 for Grabs, a 262 for Streit. Now, our comparatives are Gallagher at 147 (damn great pick), and Hudon at 122 (still remains to be seen). But then, the problem with that is that his depth pre-2007 was accompanied by fine 1st and 2nd rounders. While right now, it's not. As of now. Might change.

 

[montreal]

It's not having an axe to grind. It's called having an opinion. I think it's time to move on. I have argumentations for that. I have no idea where you are going with this. Of course I will counter attack with things I don't like...'cause it's actually my opinion that it's time for him to go based on everything I keep saying. I actually can't think he's great if I actually don't think he is not. I have continuously said that he did great things in the past. So if people say that 2007 was great. I'd say it is. If people say that 2004 draft was actually fine, I'd respond it was. If people say that he found some great gems late in the rounds from 2003 to 2007, I'd say he sure did. Why? 'Cause that's actually what I thought and actually what happened. But nobody can say he did great since 2008. It's impossible. So I don't think he did. So if somebody would come up to me and say how great he is even since 2008....how the heck should I say he sure did when I don't think he did?

You don't want to look at everybody else? Fine. But then, nobody, and I'm not saying you did, can say that it's IMPOSSIBLE to find great top end players after the top 5 as I prove Boston did and quite a few of other teams did. Nashville build their WHOLE defense with everybody BUT a top 5 pick. Geez, not only outside the top 5 pick, but outside the first round except Ryan Ellis. Who is surely their #4 d-man. Even Carolina who is missing a lot of things up front, has build their defense with 3 guys outside the 1st round and Hanifin.

Everytime I say that it's time for Timmins to go, I keep being told no 'cause he is great 'cause he picked Subban, Price, McDonagh, Pac, Gallagher, Sergachev, Galchenyuk, Halak etc. (tell me you didn't say that now...). And my reply to this was....well most of those guys are pre 2007. 11 freakin years ago. Yes, 2008 he didn't have a 1st round to work with, but he had a 2nd....but it was still possible to find something in 2008. At every pick we made. Same with 2009. Same in 2011.

The same reasons you gave to show how greate Timmins are, which is his gems in later rounds pre-2007, somehow, we excuse him when he was not able to do the same post 2007. The quantity he build pre 2007, was made out of outside the 1st round. Why wasn't he able to do the same after? Why do we think he was great for all of that....but why do we say it's not his fault after that 'cause he didn't have a lot to work with. He used a 271 for Halak. Used a 150 for Grabs, a 262 for Streit. Now, our comparatives are Gallagher at 147 (damn great pick), and Hudon at 122 (still remains to be seen). But then, the problem with that is that his depth pre-2007 was accompanied by fine 1st and 2nd rounders. While right now, it's not. As of now. Might change.

it's one thing to have an opinion, you seem to go beyond that imo. I can admit I'm baised against Lefebvre, just can't stand him even though I never met him.

I'm not saying Timmins is great, I do think when you look at his total body of work, he's one of the top scouts in the NHL. Top 5? Top 10? I guess I would have to sit down and actually study every team in the NHL and that's never going to happen since I don't really care in the end. I look at his body of work and for me he clearly can find talent as I don't look at one position for success.

We can all admit he had some terrible years from '08 to '11. The rest it will depend on how things go. I like how things are looking for those drafts, but only time will tell what we have.

I do think you can find top end players outside the top 10/15, just that the stats are very heavily against that so I don't hold it against him for not doing so that often. In addition to Hudon he needs to have other late to later round picks like Evans, Primeau, etc... as you would want a top scout to find some hidden gems here and there.

I've said repeatedly that I would be ok with getting rid of Timmins but that it's much further down the list, to me unless you get rid of Lefebvre, MB, Lapointe, JDD, CJ, I don't see the point. People wanted MT gone so badly but how much better is CJ? It's like watching groundhog day for me, so be careful what you wish for.

 

[Whitesnake]

it's one thing to have an opinion, you seem to go beyond that imo. I can admit I'm baised against Lefebvre, just can't stand him even though I never met him.

I'm not saying Timmins is great, I do think when you look at his total body of work, he's one of the top scouts in the NHL. Top 5? Top 10? I guess I would have to sit down and actually study every team in the NHL and that's never going to happen since I don't really care in the end. I look at his body of work and for me he clearly can find talent as I don't look at one position for success.

We can all admit he had some terrible years from '08 to '11. The rest it will depend on how things go. I like how things are looking for those drafts, but only time will tell what we have.

I do think you can find top end players outside the top 10/15, just that the stats are very heavily against that so I don't hold it against him for not doing so that often. In addition to Hudon he needs to have other late to later round picks like Evans, Primeau, etc... as you would want a top scout to find some hidden gems here and there.

I've said repeatedly that I would be ok with getting rid of Timmins but that it's much further down the list, to me unless you get rid of Lefebvre, MB, Lapointe, JDD, CJ, I don't see the point. People wanted MT gone so badly but how much better is CJ? It's like watching groundhog day for me, so be careful what you wish for.

And again, if you are biased against Lefebvre, it might have something to do with missing the playoffs 5 times out of 6. That's how bias you are....you look at facts, you hate it, you want a change. I really don't know where you are going with this.

It's a Timmins thread. Of course, asking him to be removed does not mean it has to be the first thing that needs to be done. But a complete change of culture would be perfect for this team. But yes, it will have to be managed by somebody who knows their shit. And with Molson on top of it, yeah, it's not clear that it will be done properly.

In the end, yes, we can say that Timmins was fine overall because he found guys like Streit, Halak, Grabovski. So at the rank they were picked, those were GREAT picks. NO DOUBT. Yes....how great were they and how helpful were they? Halak made us reach a 3rd round. Awesome. But that's it. Streit had some great offensive seasons.Never was a great playoffs guy though. So as great those picks were....they were not game changing players that transformed this team to be a competitive cup team. REason why I keep saying that I would take one Patrice Bergeron over 10 GREAT quantity Timmins picks. It's one thing to make great picks, it's another to find REAL gamechanging players. Boston found those. LA found those with Kopitar and Quick. Detroit found those with Datsyuk, Lindstrom and Co. Yes, it helps to have Crosby and Malkin...helps a lot....but Pens found one key player in Matt Murray. It helps a lot for Chicago to have Kane and Toews....but Duncan Keith was needed. Seabrook the same. People keep saying how the Wings are awesome at the draft table when they actually aren't. Why? 'Cause those superb key players happened. Has nothing to do with the quantity Timmins found.

 

[montreal]

And again, if you are biased against Lefebvre, it might have something to do with missing the playoffs 5 times out of 6. That's how bias you are....you look at facts, you hate it, you want a change. I really don't know where you are going with this.

It's a Timmins thread. Of course, asking him to be removed does not mean it has to be the first thing that needs to be done. But a complete change of culture would be perfect for this team. But yes, it will have to be managed by somebody who knows their ****. And with Molson on top of it, yeah, it's not clear that it will be done properly.

In the end, yes, we can say that Timmins was fine overall because he found guys like Streit, Halak, Grabovski. So at the rank they were picked, those were GREAT picks. NO DOUBT. Yes....how great were they and how helpful were they? Halak made us reach a 3rd round. Awesome. But that's it. Streit had some great offensive seasons.Never was a great playoffs guy though. So as great those picks were....they were not game changing players that transformed this team to be a competitive cup team. REason why I keep saying that I would take one Patrice Bergeron over 10 GREAT quantity Timmins picks. It's one thing to make great picks, it's another to find REAL gamechanging players. Boston found those. LA found those with Kopitar and Quick. Detroit found those with Datsyuk, Lindstrom and Co. Yes, it helps to have Crosby and Malkin...helps a lot....but Pens found one key player in Matt Murray. It helps a lot for Chicago to have Kane and Toews....but Duncan Keith was needed. Seabrook the same. People keep saying how the Wings are awesome at the draft table when they actually aren't. Why? 'Cause those superb key players happened. Has nothing to do with the quantity Timmins found.

I like to think that no matter how much I hate Lefebvre, I can still speak objectively about him. Hear what others have to say and not just bash him endlessly. It's one thing to have an opinion, but you seem to be on a mission with your posts about Timmins and the job he's done. Just seems to me you go out of your way to bash him when to me there's bigger fish to fry and who are more to blame for our prospect troubles first.

Timmins has found quality, it's not his fault this organization has had poor asset management and development. How different would this team look with Subban, McDonagh, Markov, Sergachev, Mete, Juulsen. He clearly knows how to find goalies in Price, Halak (not his fault the return wasn't better), plus McNiven was CHL goalie of the year, Primeau/Hawkey were 2 of the best goalies in the NCAA and Lindgren has looked good at times in the NHL.

If asset management and development was better imo Timmins would look better. He's gotten a number of quality players, he hit a rough patch and now he's got a bunch of young guys that are showing things but we need to see more. If Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Hudon, Lehkonen, Sergachev, Scherbak, Mete, Juulsen, Poehling, Evans, Brook, Primeau, Ghetto, Addison, Fleury etc... there's a lot to like there imo, lots of chances of having solid NHLers with a few maybe being impact players.

 

[The Great Weal]

I think we will have a good draft but I worry about more Alzner type contracts.

No clue how our draft goes, Timmins love his off board picks that nobody likes or has heard of. As for bad contracts, Stastny is going to be an awful contract.

 

[Habs Halifax]

No clue how our draft goes, Timmins love his off board picks that nobody likes or has heard of. As for bad contracts, Stastny is going to be an awful contract.

I personally like Timmins and I think we will do well.

I prefer big fish or no fish type moves. I would go after Stastny if we get Tavares. Stastny by himself as our #1C is not the answer. Rather go into next year with our current roster and get another lottery pick

 

[The Great Weal]

I personally like Timmins and I think we will do well.

Who is to say he doesn't pull a McCarron, Walford, Staum, Pezzetta, Crisp...etc? He does it more frequently than not.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Who is to say he doesn't pull a McCarron, Walford, Staum, Pezzetta, Crisp...etc? He does it more frequently than not.

Every team has a list like this

 

[yianik]

Every team has a list like this

Sure, but for me it isnt just about the whiffs, its what he is whiffing on. What exactly was the upside on any of these guys ? Too early to completely count out everybody on that list, but I am thinking bottom 6 or bottom pairing ceiling.

Why strike out trying to bunt ? Last year I wanted Lipanov at 68 and Elvenes at 87. The upside of these guys is as top 6 players. There are enough guys drafted as top 6 players , top 4 D that end up being bottom players. You dont need to actually pick guys with that kind of low ceiling.

 

[Vachon23]

my big problem with Timmins: How much top 6 center has he draft ?

 

[The Great Weal]

35 + 38 is equal to about #24 OA, we also have players like McCarron and Scherbak who i expect will get dealt this offseason (definitely at least 1 of them).

I would be surprised if McCarron had more value than a 4th.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

I'm sure they'd accept any offer for Big Mac at this point, possibly for Scherbak too. I don't know if it'll amount to much though. Even the latter is kind of a diminished asset now, might as well keep him one more year and see if he finally figures the game out .

 

[TT1]

I would be surprised if McCarron had more value than a 4th.

Ok but you're speculating so your statement doesn't hold much weight, you don't know how GM's value players around the league. Baertschi was garbage when he got moved and he still fetched 2 2nd rounders, Davidson was traded for Desharnais then EDM picked him up on waivers and he still fetched a 3rd rounder.

 

[Vachon23]

I would be surprised if McCarron had more value than a 4th.

I be surprised If he was claimed on the waiver ...

 

[Vachon23]

Ok but you're speculating so your statement doesn't hold much weight, you don't know how GM's value players around the league. Baertschi was garbage when he got moved and he still fetched 2 2nd rounders, Davidson was traded for Desharnais then EDM picked him up on waivers and he still fetched a 3rd rounder.

but they where NHL players... McCarron is far from away from a NHL player look at Rychel he was not claimed at the waiver

 

[TT1]

but they where NHL players... McCarron is far from away from a NHL player look at Rychel he was not claimed at the waiver

McCarron has tools that Rychel doesn't, that's why i said you don't know how GM's value players around the league. Dont' get me wrong, McCarron sucks, NHL GM's make mistakes tho.

 

[Vachon23]

McCarron has tools that Rychel doesn't, that's why i said you don't know how GM's value players around the league. Dont' get me wrong, McCarron sucks, NHL GM's make mistakes tho.

witch tool ? he is taller ? his coffee his better ? he makes good cookies ? he is a nice guy in the room ? Because Mccarron and tools doesn't fit

 

[schnapshot]

McCarron has tools that Rychel doesn't, that's why i said you don't know how GM's value players around the league. Dont' get me wrong, McCarron sucks, NHL GM's make mistakes tho.

When you compare the two, Rychel is actually a better prospect IMO. His skating isn’t great but at least he can get where he wants to.

The only thing McCarron has on Rychel is 5 inches.

 

[TT1]

witch tool ? he is taller ? his coffee his better ? he makes good cookies ? he is a nice guy in the room ? Because Mccarron and tools doesn't fit

Center, big, fights. There's a GM that might envision him as a 4C for their team.

I don't really understand what we're talking about to be honest. I'm saying that 35 + 38 + McCarron could possibly get you in at around #20-22, value-wise 35 + 38 is already the equivalent of about #24. It's not a huge jump, why are you arguing for the sake of arguing?

I honestly don't give a shit about Rychel/McCarron and company as prospects.

 

[Habs Icing]

McCarron has tools that Rychel doesn't, that's why i said you don't know how GM's value players around the league. Dont' get me wrong, McCarron sucks, NHL GM's make mistakes tho.

Huh? What tools do you see in McCarron? Ditch digging and basket weaving? From what I've seen of Rychel I'd say he's head and shoulders better than McCarron and I'm not really sure Rychel will get his act together to make the NHL.

 

[TT1]

this board is splitting hairs over 2 garbage players, they're both garbage but Rychel doesn't have any qualities that make him stand out as a player.. whereas McCarron does (which makes it more likely for a GM to make the mistake of trading for him).

don't quit your day jobs

 

[Vachon23]

Center, big, fights. There's a GM that might envision him as a 4C for their team.

I don't really understand what we're talking about to be honest. I'm saying that 35 + 38 + McCarron could possibly get you in at around #20-22, value-wise 35 + 38 is already the equivalent of about #24. It's not a huge jump, why are you arguing for the sake of arguing?

I honestly don't give a **** about Rychel/McCarron and company as prospects.

Rychel is a better fighter

 

[TT1]

Rychel is a better fighter

alright dude, you win, good job!!

lets trade Scherbak + 35 + 38 to move up into a better spot in the 1st round (assuming a great prospect falls of course), ok?