Confirmed with Link: Trade! Petersen & Walker & Grans and a 2024 2nd to Flyers : Kings 30% retention on Provorov and get Connauton and Hodgson

[Raccoon Jesus]

Regardless of how I feel or don't feel about the context or the content...

I just wanted to say I really loved this metaphor.

I'll take it!

 

[Lt Dan]

Regardless of how I feel or don't feel about the context or the content...

I just wanted to say I really loved this metaphor.

Jesse and the metaphor sitting in a tree....

 

[King'sPawn]

Yes, that's exactly what happens when one compounds bad decisions with further bad decisions.

The rope you get at the start of your tenure is not the same you get 6 years in. It's why Cloutier is a footnote, and Lucic is a banner. It's why Kovalchuk is a funny side quest, and why Petersen is a catastrophe.

You earn or disearn the benefit of the doubt. Blake hasn't given us ANYTHING to think he's playing 4D chess. If anything, it's becoming increasingly clear his 'vision' is now one-year-at-a-time, not even 3-5 years into the future.

It's hilarious how people are staunchly defending Blake and unironically criticizing DL's moves while accusing Blake critics of not criticizing DL. While also accusing people of being irrational for talking about DL's choices from 7-8 years ago.

I'm just adding, I was critical of the developmental system before Blake. It's why I've staunchly opposed bland and K17 in their push to trade Kopitar. So my criticism has spanned multiple regimes and Blake has given no indication he's fixing issues from his side, either.

But we also get accused of bitching about everything.

Whenever Blake moves on (whether via quitting or firing), I wonder if these same people will suddenly start criticizing him when he's no longer the current regime.

 

[Schrute farms]

It's hilarious how people are staunchly defending Blake and unironically criticizing DL's moves while accusing Blake critics of not criticizing DL. While also accusing people of being irrational for talking about DL's choices from 7-8 years ago.

I'm just adding, I was critical of the developmental system before Blake. It's why I've staunchly opposed bland and K17 in their push to trade Kopitar. So my criticism has spanned multiple regimes and Blake has given no indication he's fixing issues from his side, either.

But we also get accused of bitching about everything.

Whenever Blake moves on (whether via quitting or firing), I wonder if these same people will suddenly start criticizing him when he's no longer the current regime.

The King is dead! ; Long live the King!

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

It's hilarious how people are staunchly defending Blake and unironically criticizing DL's moves while accusing Blake critics of not criticizing DL. While also accusing people of being irrational for talking about DL's choices from 7-8 years ago.

I'm just adding, I was critical of the developmental system before Blake. It's why I've staunchly opposed bland and K17 in their push to trade Kopitar. So my criticism has spanned multiple regimes and Blake has given no indication he's fixing issues from his side, either.

But we also get accused of bitching about everything.

Whenever Blake moves on (whether via quitting or firing), I wonder if these same people will suddenly start criticizing him when he's no longer the current regime.

You and I agreed with this as soon as they started getting 'rebuild' and lottery picks (Vilardi time maybe? Maybe even Kupari).

These guys churn out JAGs better than anyone in the league...what's going to happen when they get to work with blue chip talent?

Now are fears are being realized and we have our answers, they have no f***ing clue what to do.

 

[Sol]

I was one of those guys who wanted Kopitar gone because I thought the idea of rebuilding with assets like this would become a hindrance. I was convinced by a few posters that in fact they’d be good mentors for the players who are coming in through the rebuild. I’ve learned that in theory that would be great unless they were used differently. And differently is what has happened to the Kings. Kopitar and Doughty have become roadblocks in the line up and nothing else. They have produced and played well but it’s not conducive for any player who you want to take the next big step forward when that role is already gone.

I now truly think that in order to do a rebuild you must trade any high profile player so that the positions are up for grabs. Have a good management and coaching system to be the one to groom the players. Not have players teaching players when the players doing the teaching are going to inhabit all the icetime anyways.

 

[Schrute farms]

I was one of those guys who wanted Kopitar gone because I thought the idea of rebuilding with assets like this would become a hindrance. I was convinced by a few posters that in fact they’d be good mentors for the players who are coming in through the rebuild. I’ve learned that in theory that would be great unless they were used differently. And differently is what has happened to the Kings. Kopitar and Doughty have become roadblocks in the line up and nothing else. They have produced and played well but it’s not conducive for any player who you want to take the next big step forward when that role is already gone.

I now truly think that in order to do a rebuild you must trade any high profile player so that the positions are up for grabs. Have a good management and coaching system to be the one to groom the players. Not have players teaching players when the players doing the teaching are going to inhabit all the icetime anyways.

The Theory is a smart and good one -- a few vets to help the youth movement and have them learn the right way to practice, play, be professionals, etc. It started off well with Willie the Tank commander as HC.

Then Blake inexplicably changed course. Hired a very good regular season veteran coach -- who excels at getting the most out of a team during the regular season, veterans, etc. That's a horrible idea for what this team was at the time and the direction. They needed to hire a HC who excels at player/youth development without the pressure of wins being a concern. Having those few vets around to help these young guys be pros and usher in the new wave. So it started off well, but ultimately went south quick when the execution and lack of LT plan was sustained (maybe not even considered) by Blake.

 

[bland]

Grans + 2nd is cheap as hell to get rid of Petersen's contract.

You add Walker (who also has negative value) and only have to take back 2M?

It's very equitable for LA overall.

Had they rolled with Cal one more season then bought him out next summer, his buyout would be less than than the Provorov retention. Keeping him in the minors in 23-24 would have been something like a $3.6 cap hit this year, just $1.6 more than Provorov's hit.

Simply buying out Walker this year would have resulted in cap hits of something like $1.5 for the next two seasons.

This deal only really saved them about $3 million in cap space, which was essential only to re-sign Gavrikov before free agency THIS summer.

The real issue is trading away a first round pick for an expiring contract. The rest is an expensive scramble to cover for that decision. Its just not as favorable as people think. Its minimal savings at an inflated premium just to keep someone on a team that cannot win even one round.

 

[johnjm22]

Had they rolled with Cal one more season then bought him out next summer, his buyout would be less than than the Provorov retention. Keeping him in the minors in 23-24 would have been something like a $3.6 cap hit this year, just $1.6 more than Provorov's hit.

Simply buying out Walker this year would have resulted in cap hits of something like $1.5 for the next two seasons.

This deal only really saved them about $3 million in cap space, which was essential only to re-sign Gavrikov before free agency THIS summer.

The real issue is trading away a first round pick for an expiring contract. The rest is an expensive scramble to cover for that decision. Its just not as favorable as people think. Its minimal savings at an inflated premium just to keep someone on a team that cannot win even one round.

Yes, but I'm talking about the absolute value of the deal itself.

Petersen's cap hit in the AHL would be 3.8M. I don't think they want Petersen down there taking up a development spot.

I've said many times that the Gavrikov trade was dumb.

 

[Schmooley]

Petersen's cap hit in the AHL would be 3.8M. I don't think they want Petersen down there taking up a development spot.

What makes you think that they care about development spots in ontario? They werent giving first round draft picks powerplay time down there at first.
They had Tynan and Nate Thompson playing last year. Hickey and Wolanin were there.
Two playoffs ago guys like Byfield Vilardi Anderssen missed both ahl and nhl playoffs watching from the pressbox

 

[johnjm22]

What makes you think that they care about development spots in ontario? They werent giving first round draft picks powerplay time down there at first.
They had Tynan and Nate Thompson playing last year. Hickey and Wolanin were there.
Two playoffs ago guys Byfield Vilardi Anderssen missed both ahl and nhl playoffs watching from the pressbox

Because they traded for Portillo.

 

[King'sPawn]

I was one of those guys who wanted Kopitar gone because I thought the idea of rebuilding with assets like this would become a hindrance. I was convinced by a few posters that in fact they’d be good mentors for the players who are coming in through the rebuild. I’ve learned that in theory that would be great unless they were used differently. And differently is what has happened to the Kings. Kopitar and Doughty have become roadblocks in the line up and nothing else. They have produced and played well but it’s not conducive for any player who you want to take the next big step forward when that role is already gone.

I now truly think that in order to do a rebuild you must trade any high profile player so that the positions are up for grabs. Have a good management and coaching system to be the one to groom the players. Not have players teaching players when the players doing the teaching are going to inhabit all the icetime anyways.

The thing is, there is actual value to having valuable vets - provided they buy in.

Reading the tea leaves, of course, but it seemed to me that Kopitar was ambivalent with a rebuild - he just does what he's told. But Doughty, competitive guy that he is, didn't want the team to suck for years.

So at that point, when Blake "committed to a rebuild" it was on him to confirm with his vets that they would go along with it. If not, it was on Blake to move them.

Then you need to have a plan in place to put prospects in the roles you expect them to play - alongside equally skilled vets to insulate them a bit. It's a challenge to prospects, so you want to push them a bit, but within reason.

Once a prospect becomes his own player/man, and can be independent, then you have to start evaluating where everyone fits and start moving them accordingly.

It's straightforward but complex and delicate, because you want to push your prospects to grow without overwhelming them or setting them up to fail. You want to get them to learn how to apply their game at an NHL level, while still trying to ensure they aren't too one-dimensional.

It's why I was okay with the acquisition of Danault and Arvidsson. It was the perfect opportunity to weaponize the depth and high-picks made. And you saw how Anderson pairs with Doughty well. It works.

But for some reason, every forward prospect is expected to lern2grynd, and they're taking way longer to possibly reaching their potential.

 

[Schmooley]

Because they traded for Portillo.

They will have a veteran goalie in Ontario playing with him

 

[johnjm22]

They will have a veteran goalie in Ontario playing with him

Yeah they'll probably have Portillo and Villita in Ontario.

I don't think they wanted Petersen taking up a slot down there, but it's not the MAIN reason for the move obviously.

 

[Schrute farms]

Had they rolled with Cal one more season then bought him out next summer, his buyout would be less than than the Provorov retention. Keeping him in the minors in 23-24 would have been something like a $3.6 cap hit this year, just $1.6 more than Provorov's hit.

Simply buying out Walker this year would have resulted in cap hits of something like $1.5 for the next two seasons.

This deal only really saved them about $3 million in cap space, which was essential only to re-sign Gavrikov before free agency THIS summer.

The real issue is trading away a first round pick for an expiring contract. The rest is an expensive scramble to cover for that decision. Its just not as favorable as people think. Its minimal savings at an inflated premium just to keep someone on a team that cannot win even one round.

 

[bland]

The thing is, there is actual value to having valuable vets - provided they buy in.

Reading the tea leaves, of course, but it seemed to me that Kopitar was ambivalent with a rebuild - he just does what he's told. But Doughty, competitive guy that he is, didn't want the team to suck for years.

So at that point, when Blake "committed to a rebuild" it was on him to confirm with his vets that they would go along with it. If not, it was on Blake to move them.

Then you need to have a plan in place to put prospects in the roles you expect them to play - alongside equally skilled vets to insulate them a bit. It's a challenge to prospects, so you want to push them a bit, but within reason.

Once a prospect becomes his own player/man, and can be independent, then you have to start evaluating where everyone fits and start moving them accordingly.

It's straightforward but complex and delicate, because you want to push your prospects to grow without overwhelming them or setting them up to fail. You want to get them to learn how to apply their game at an NHL level, while still trying to ensure they aren't too one-dimensional.

It's why I was okay with the acquisition of Danault and Arvidsson. It was the perfect opportunity to weaponize the depth and high-picks made. And you saw how Anderson pairs with Doughty well. It works.

But for some reason, every forward prospect is expected to lern2grynd, and they're taking way longer to possibly reaching their potential.

The caveat is, that they cannot even teach them to grind well. Kupari, JAD and Kaliyev were barely speed bumps in their zone most nights. Kupari made a couple of nice plays here and there, but man, having a veteran group of 4th line role players would make a difference in the playoffs.

Its like a dual-dulled sword. Can't move up to show their skills, can't win board battles and get pucks out and deep.

 

[DoktorJeep]

BLuc’s been in charge since mid April 2017. That’s over 2000 days. The reason an increasing number of fans only see the negative in every successive move is that the benefit of the doubt ended after 2 seasons at the helm.

You don’t get to have infinite excuses after you shit the bed instead of winning, while being given every resource possible.

 

[Sol]

The thing is, there is actual value to having valuable vets - provided they buy in.

Reading the tea leaves, of course, but it seemed to me that Kopitar was ambivalent with a rebuild - he just does what he's told. But Doughty, competitive guy that he is, didn't want the team to suck for years.

So at that point, when Blake "committed to a rebuild" it was on him to confirm with his vets that they would go along with it. If not, it was on Blake to move them.

Then you need to have a plan in place to put prospects in the roles you expect them to play - alongside equally skilled vets to insulate them a bit. It's a challenge to prospects, so you want to push them a bit, but within reason.

Once a prospect becomes his own player/man, and can be independent, then you have to start evaluating where everyone fits and start moving them accordingly.

It's straightforward but complex and delicate, because you want to push your prospects to grow without overwhelming them or setting them up to fail. You want to get them to learn how to apply their game at an NHL level, while still trying to ensure they aren't too one-dimensional.

It's why I was okay with the acquisition of Danault and Arvidsson. It was the perfect opportunity to weaponize the depth and high-picks made. And you saw how Anderson pairs with Doughty well. It works.

But for some reason, every forward prospect is expected to lern2grynd, and they're taking way longer to possibly reaching their potential.

Here is the thing. I am cool with Vets on a rebuilding team for sure. Where I make the distinction is what their role is. Rookie support is important but it becomes less important when those players likely block the rookies which is what is happenin.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

@KingsFan7824 always takes the contrarian position to the current zeitgeist on the forum. It is his solemn duty. If most of the posters here were licking Blake’s boots, he would make sure to offer criticism.

He is the great balancing force among Kings’ fans. When any one viewpoint appears poised to consume all else, he is there, our guiding light, Captain Anti-Establishment.

 

[bland]

The one positive that I will grant them is that while they over-achieved into the playoffs in 21-22, EXPECTING to make them in 22-23 and doing so is an accomplishment in and of itself.

But I just cannot see how anyone in management could take an honest look at the roster construction and think that they could make any noise. That's why the exodus of a top prospect in Faber and multiple top picks is so infuriating. They just weren't anywhere near ready to make the types of deals they made - they will need that additional capital when they are ready.

Which brings up the real problem. That readiness cannot be achieved without cost-controlled production augmenting that of their drivers. Blake skipped that step by over-spending on the middle as the top has faded, while neglecting the maturation of the cost-controlled players.

Blake hasn't gained anything from the top forward prospects during their ELCs. Nothing, not a damn noteworthy thing. He has had to stretch the cap to its limits and overspend left and right just to maintain a level of mediocrity. Nothing he has ever done has indicated an ability to move past this level. Its just hope at this point.

 

[King'sPawn]

The caveat is, that they cannot even teach them to grind well. Kupari, JAD and Kaliyev were barely speed bumps in their zone most nights. Kupari made a couple of nice plays here and there, but man, having a veteran group of 4th line role players would make a difference in the playoffs.

Its like a dual-dulled sword. Can't move up to show their skills, can't win board battles and get pucks out and deep.

I agree. The idea of Lizotte and Lemieux working with a prospect is awesome.

But they had Arthur Kaliyev, a sniper, put with role players.

So Kaliyev can't hone his offensive skill, because he's expected to grind. When prospects are already learning how to integrate their game in the NHL. Now they're expected to play a role they're not penciled in for?

If JAD had been placed with Lemieux/Lizotte instead, and had other prospects sprinkled through the lineup with other vets more apt for their role, I think the Kings would have had a better record and the youth would be further along.

 

[bland]

I agree. The idea of Lizotte and Lemieux working with a prospect is awesome.

But they had Arthur Kaliyev, a sniper, put with role players.

So Kaliyev can't hone his offensive skill, because he's expected to grind. When prospects are already learning how to integrate their game in the NHL. Now they're expected to play a role they're not penciled in for?

If JAD had been placed with Lemieux/Lizotte instead, and had other prospects sprinkled through the lineup with other vets more apt for their role, I think the Kings would have had a better record and the youth would be further along.

They absolutely must roll with Fiala - Byfield - Vilardi next year regardless of any defensive liabilities. Vilardi pushed through last year, but those two in particular need to hit the offense as fast possible this upcoming season. If you can't count on those two kids going into next summer, the Kings are going to be looking at burying them down the depth chart for good with the cap space they will surely be using on a high end forward with the expiration of Kopitar, Arvidsson and Roy's deals.

I would pair Bjornfot with Doughty and Anderson with Clarke next year too.

This upcoming year will be the crux of the rebuild, if those kids aren't the face of the team heading into 24-25, might as well fold up the tent.

 

[johnjm22]

They absolutely must roll with Fiala - Byfield - Vilardi next year regardless of any defensive liabilities. Vilardi pushed through last year, but those two in particular need to hit the offense as fast possible this upcoming season.

I'd go with this:

Moore-Kopitar-Kempe
Fiala-Danault-Arvidsson
Iafallo-Byfield-Vilardi
xxxxx-Lizotte-xxxxxx

Every one of those line has some defensive competency. This way Todd doesn't have to be afraid to play any one.

Each one of those top 3 lines has a guy who can finish (Kempe, RV, Vilardi), and a guy who plays with "buzz" (Moore, Fiala, Iafallo).

Not sure what to do about the 4th line though. Need wingers who can compliment Lizzote. JAD works IMO, but a big physical asshole -who's actually good at hockey- would go nice there on the other side. I've mentioned Hathaway several times.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

BLuc’s been in charge since mid April 2017. That’s over 2000 days. The reason an increasing number of fans only see the negative in every successive move is that the benefit of the doubt ended after 2 seasons at the helm.

You don’t get to have infinite excuses after you shit the bed instead of winning, while being given every resource possible.

This is the part that gets me.

It's basically the dream job.

You inherited hall of famers at C, D, and G. You got a chance at winning again with that squad, and when it failed, you got the go-ahead to rebuild.

So you still have the vets you want, and the myriad picks you need, to build the hell out of a roster, hire a coach, and make some noise.

This many years later--your goalies in the org are Copley, Villalta, and Portillo. Your LHDs are Anderson, a 2nd pairing dman who you traded a 1st for and multiple 2nds to keep for two years, and probably Durzi. None of your 1st round centers are actually playing center. None of your MYRIAD RHD prospects are getting significant NHL time. You're out of 1st round picks for the next two years, and are missing a lot of picks in the top four rounds. You're hitting waiver eligibility deadlines with all of your first picks, most of whom have yet to play more than 5 NHL games. NONE of your top prospects are on their 'ideal' or desired timelines. NONE. Oh, AND you're up against the cap, so you're running out of opportunities to band-aid your own self-inflicted shotgun wounds.

With AEG backing, a low-pressure market, sycophant media that won't hold your feet to the fire, and carte blanche to do basically whatever the hell you want--you finally make the playoffs again five years later without Doughty and Arvidsson and bow out in 7, run it back the next year, and go out even faster without even mounting pressure in most games--THIS is where we are at six years later. That is absolutely f***ing appalling.

So yeah Blake is absolutely OUT of the benefit of the doubt with me. i was ABSOLUTELY WRONG about him. Won't be the first time, certainly won't be the last, but might be the worst.

Edit: nearly forgot no broadcasting partner and arena naming rights!

 

[funky]

Had they rolled with Cal one more season then bought him out next summer, his buyout would be less than than the Provorov retention. Keeping him in the minors in 23-24 would have been something like a $3.6 cap hit this year, just $1.6 more than Provorov's hit.

Simply buying out Walker this year would have resulted in cap hits of something like $1.5 for the next two seasons.

This deal only really saved them about $3 million in cap space, which was essential only to re-sign Gavrikov before free agency THIS summer.

The real issue is trading away a first round pick for an expiring contract. The rest is an expensive scramble to cover for that decision. Its just not as favorable as people think. Its minimal savings at an inflated premium just to keep someone on a team that cannot win even one round.

This is not exactly right.

Peterson counts 4 mil on the cap this year if he is in the minors. Plus we pay another goalie to play in the NHL . We also would have to pay Walker $418,000 buyout hit which covers half of Spence or Clarke’s salary.

He then has a buyout hit of 2 mil next year. Same as the Provorov hit. That ends the Provorov retention . We would also have to add an extra 1.1 mil the next year for Walkers buyout hit

The following year Peterson has a million cap hit to complete his buyout. We do not owe anything that year to Provorov.



So it all depends how you look at things.

My favorite thing is it solidifies a really good top 4 Defence that can eat a ton of big minutes and help our goalies. Throw a Clarke into the mix and sign or trade for a physical guy and we are talking a top 10 Defence. Yes I know people are going to bitch that Todd won’t use them properly or at all but that’s not the point. The GM gave him the pieces. If he can’t figure it out find a guy that can. (Still love the Moneyball scene where Billy trades Giambi just so Howe can’t use him)

I also like the fact it clears up a spot in the AHL for our new prospect Portillo and the trading of Walker and his salary in the same deal clears up an extra 2.65 million this year and opens up a spot for youth.

Just trying to look at it in a different light.

Let’s see what Blake does from here. He has his goaltending coach but the next thing out of Kingsland better involve the name Gabe.