Post-Game Talk: TRADE DEADLINE 2024

[Lafleurs Guy]

If I were to wager a guess, I don't think Mr. Glasses on Forehead will be high on him. But fair enough. I haven't been able to follow lists too much lately.

Probably not. And that's a shame because I love the idea of drafting him.

I'm kind of tired of the "Oh well, let's be positive and it MIGHT happen" approach. That's been our approach for 30 years. People were touting everyone from KK to Scherbak to Louis Louis Louis. Competent organizations circumvent the maybes and ensure success.

New regime and we're stockpiling talent like we haven't since before the MB years. Moreover, we have proper development. It's a completely different ballgame.

I don't think it's a fact at all. I think it's a big question mark. Again, people thought we had excellent talent pools forever and nothing panned out.

When did we ever think we had excellent talent pools? Certainly not since the Price, Max, Subban period. It's been a wasteland since.

They could be doing better. As I said, they look like they're headed for Detroit, not Pittsburgh, Colorado, Tampa, etc.

Maybe. But we won't know this for a while. I'd say we've got some pretty solid prospects though.

Just based on ownership's general behavior and their refusal to actually use the word rebuild, I'm not as optimistic as you on this. I'm not sure how much they're willing to sacrifice in the short term for long term gain.

Look at how many vets they've traded away. They took on bad short term contracts for picks. We have a ton of young blueliners and 24 picks in the next two drafts.

What more could they have done?

During the Bergevin years, I think casual fans got their dopamine hits enough that the uproar was never too loud, even though the hardcores hated him. He only got canned when things went to absolute Hell. Look at this board now. Even here you have super impatient people that want this to be the last year of the tank or didn't want to tank at all.

The rebuild will take what it takes. I'm not worried about anything on that front.

 

[The Great Weal]

They are late Timmins picks. From 2019 onward.

Nice, so you're using a 2 year sample as opposed to the decade of misery?

You are really bad at this.

And you are really good at this. Providing me examples like Harris/Struble/RHP as high upside players. I wonder what you think of a guy like Wyatt Johnston with the Stars. The next Gretzky perhaps?

As was said, we have a whack of good NHL prospects some with really good updside. Harris is a solid prospect who will fit into a bottom pair, Caufield a top six.

As was said, yeah Harris is definitely someone with "really good upside".

Again, answer my question... when did we ever have anything like this under MB? We didn't. But the moment he's gone, those late picks suddenly start panning into NHLers. Just like they did before he got here.

Yeah I see a massive difference between Lehkonen/Evans/Mete and Struble/RHP/Harris. Again answer my question, when did Timmins draft forwards as dominant as Caufield and Roy outside the NHL? He didn't. But he's done it once in a blue moon which means that the entire decade beforehand means nothing. Not to mention that Caufield was here during the MB era and was excellent in the playoffs. Debunked your horrendous takes as usual.

How can we know? We'd draft guys and then bring them up at 18 and play them in the bottom six. Or they'd wash out altogether under SL. And btw, CC was well on his way to busting too before the new regime came in. The moment he fell under MSL he suddenly became a 50 goal guy.

That's exactly what this management did with Slaf. Once again, throwing Guhle to the wolves is exactly what MB did with Mete. Guhle is way better than Mete, but the same method was used. Romanov's development was also part of the MB era, once again, debunked your horrendous takes again. Well Caufield is not a 50 goal guy and "how can we know" that he wouldn't continue being a great goalscorer as he was his whole career? Because of a bad stretch under Ducharme who many claim is the most incompetent coach in Habs history?

I told you it would happen. It did. Not surprisingly, you're here again defending the old regime.

You didn't say shit and your points are horrific lmao and you are contradicting yourself so badly as per usual. Yes I'm defending the old regime which is why I've been losing my mind at MB not firing that human meatball of a clown named Trevor Timmins. Another lie from you but I'm not even bothered by it, it's hilarious seeing you make stuff up to not admit you were wrong.

No, but they will develop into NHLers. They can be used as currency for other picks and players.

Please tell me which superstar we are getting for Harris/RHP/Evans and a ham sandwich?

We're actually getting VALUE out of our picks now as opposed to before. We might as well have just ditched all the picks we had for a decade under MB because he was so bad at development.

I've already proved that this is nonsense. Evans and Lehkonen are proof of that. Again, since you have a very hard time understanding when a team can't make the playoffs legitimately like the Habs since 2017, they receive a lot more picks and especially quality picks.

I have all the proof I need. Ten years of failure vs what we see now, picks turning into productive NHL players and tradeable assets.

Exactly as I told you would happen.

Can you buy me a Harris jersey? I've always wanted a superstar's jersey. No way MB would have been able to develop a Jordan Harris like player. He only helped develop bums like Suzuki who suck. I'm shocked you had nothing to say about that. Probably because you think Suzuki isn't good still.

As usual you aren't capable of admitting you were wrong. It's okay, I don't expect you to.

I've admitted I was wrong plenty of times. I was horribly wrong about Tinordi becoming a good player in the NHL. I was horribly wrong about KK being a good pick. I was horribly wrong about trading Galchenyuk to the Yotes would be a catastrophic mistake. I was horribly wrong that Romanov was a terrible pick. When was the last time you admitted that you were wrong? You still believe that Galchenyuk was guaranteed to score 90 points a season during a period where it has happened 3 times (from different players) in the seasons of 2013-2014 (Crosby), 2014-2015, 2015-2016 (Kane), and 2017-2018 (McDavid). Thinking that Galchenyuk would be on par with Crosby/Kane/McDavid is one thing, but to STILL believe that today is without a doubt the worst take in the history of HFBoards, you should get a trophy for that.

But I'm here all day for this. I will bury you on this because it's really easy to do.

I'm going to give you a little tip. You have been outlapped so many times that you think you're ahead.

Please move this discussion to the Timmins thread or somewhere more appropriate which I've ignored. I'd rather keep the trade deadline thread for the trade deadline instead of you talking about Harris being a really good upside player and that I "loved old management" despite complaining about Timmins since forever.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Nice, so you're using a 2 year sample as opposed to the decade of misery?

Actually no.

We have the benefit of seeing what Timmins did before AND after. The prospects we got from 2019 to 2021 (three years not two btw) are doing much better than they did in between. Why is that?

What could it be?

We got more out of those three years than the previous run altogether.

And you are really good at this. Providing me examples like Harris/Struble/RHP as high upside players. I wonder what you think of a guy like Wyatt Johnston with the Stars. The next Gretzky perhaps?

As was said, yeah Harris is definitely someone with "really good upside".

Intentionally misreading what I wrote won't help you.

As I said, Harris is solid NHL prospect. Bottom six is just fine for where we got him. Same with guys like Struble.

Yeah I see a massive difference between Lehkonen/Evans/Mete and Struble/RHP/Harris. Again answer my question, when did Timmins draft forwards as dominant as Caufield and Roy outside the NHL? He didn't. But he's done it once in a blue moon which means that the entire decade beforehand means nothing. Not to mention that Caufield was here during the MB era and was excellent in the playoffs. Debunked your horrendous takes as usual.

I did answer... how can we know?

Galchenyuk was misused. Leblanc dropped all the way out of hockey. Both were highly regarded and did nothing.

Almost every pick we ever selected underperformed. That wasn't the case before and it's not the case now. But in between? Yep, that's exactly what happened.

That's exactly what this management did with Slaf. Once again, throwing Guhle to the wolves is exactly what MB did with Mete. Guhle is way better than Mete, but the same method was used. Romanov's development was also part of the MB era, once again, debunked your horrendous takes again. Well Caufield is not a 50 goal guy and "how can we know" that he wouldn't continue being a great goalscorer as he was his whole career? Because of a bad stretch under Ducharme who many claim is the most incompetent coach in Habs history?

I wasn't a fan of how we rushed Slaf. Still think we should've kept him in the minors for a year. But he only played half a season before getting hurt.

And he was drowning at the start of this year too. So what did they do? They ADJUSTED the development plan. They put him with better players and gave him more ice. Low and behold he improved.

Contrast that with Galchenyuk, Leblanc and pretty much all the players we had back then. Bottom six. Make a mistake? Benched. And it happened over and over and over again. Be honest, if Roy was under the MB regime he'd have been called up years ago.

You didn't say shit and your points are horrific lmao and you are contradicting yourself so badly as per usual. Yes I'm defending the old regime which is why I've been losing my mind at MB not firing that human meatball of a clown named Trevor Timmins. Another lie from you but I'm not even bothered by it, it's hilarious seeing you make stuff up to not admit you were wrong.

Yeah, so weird that we all of a sudden have a collection of good young players. Weird how so many of those guys from Timmins are panning out from 2019 on.

Yeah, I have no talking points at all...

Please tell me which superstar we are getting for Harris/RHP/Evans and a ham sandwich?

Again, you're really bad at this.

I've already proved that this is nonsense. Evans and Lehkonen are proof of that. Again, since you have a very hard time understanding when a team can't make the playoffs legitimately like the Habs since 2017, they receive a lot more picks and especially quality picks.

Evans? Really? You're going to hang your hat on him? Gallagher and Lek are about all we got out of that regime.

It's not an exaggeration to say we'd have been better off just dealing away all those picks. We'd at least have gotten players out of it.

Can you buy me a Harris jersey? I've always wanted a superstar's jersey. No way MB would have been able to develop a Jordan Harris like player. Only bums like Suzuki who suck.

Psst... the Harris superstar thing isn't flying. And you're not scoring any points with it.

I've admitted I was wrong plenty of times. I was horribly wrong about Tinordi becoming a good player in the NHL. I was horribly wrong about KK being a good pick. I was horribly wrong about trading Galchenyuk to the Yotes would be a catastrophic mistake. I was horribly wrong that Romanov was a terrible pick. When was the last time you admitted that you were wrong? You still believe that Galchenyuk was guaranteed to score 90 points a season during a period where it has happened 3 times (from different players) in the seasons of 2013-2014 (Crosby), 2014-2015, 2015-2016 (Kane), and 2017-2018 (McDavid). Thinking that Galchenyuk would be on par with Crosby/Kane/McDavid is one thing, but to STILL believe that today is without a doubt the worst take in the history of HFBoards, you should get a trophy for that.

Great. Admit you're wrong now. That would make sense because you really are.

You argued for years that Timmins was absolute trash. You argued that development was secondary and didn't really matter. Clearly that's not the case.

I have zero problem with anyone who points out Timmins' flaws. He made mistakes for sure. But to throw it ALL on him was ridiculous. And that has never been more clear than now.

As I told you, when a new regime takes over those later picks will pan out. Well, here we are.

I'm going to give you a little tip. You have been outlapped so many times that you think you're ahead.

Please move this discussion to the Timmins thread or somewhere more appropriate which I've ignored. I'd rather keep the trade deadline thread for the trade deadline instead of you talking about Harris being a really good upside player and that I "loved old management" despite complaining about Timmins since forever.

I've been outlapped... and yet Timmins' late picks have panned out at a far higher rate. Hmmm... that's strange.

Maybe you can call Harris a superstar again. That might work.

 

[Peen]

microlacerated peen

you called

 

[Twisted Sinister]

Probably not. And that's a shame because I love the idea of drafting him.

I'd be good with that, though he has some warts. I'd rather get Lindstrom or Demidov if possible.

New regime and we're stockpiling talent like we haven't since before the MB years. Moreover, we have proper development. It's a completely different ballgame.

We still need to see if our long-term development is better. That's definitely not a settled case yet. But you do believe development is a thing, which is more than I can say for some people on here

When did we ever think we had excellent talent pools? Certainly not since the Price, Max, Subban period. It's been a wasteland since.

I mean, I'm not gonna go back to years ago. But let me try and find something:

Here's an article from our favorite bad-take beating post Grant McCagg, which reflects the feeling of Habs nation in 2017-2018 pretty well. Like most Hab fans, Grant was overrating, making excuses for, and overvaluing our prospects amidst their failures. This always happens in our fandom.

Habs Drafting Since 2012 – Good, Average or Barren?

recrutes.ca

Maybe. But we won't know this for a while. I'd say we've got some pretty solid prospects though.

Look at how many vets they've traded away. They took on bad short term contracts for picks. We have a ton of young blueliners and 24 picks in the next two drafts.

Their asset management has been ok, but as I mentioned in previous posts (and you didn't address those points, really), they've made mistakes, and some of their practices/decisions are concerning.

What more could they have done?

-Not Hire a head of Scouting with no visible success in his career because he's your buddy.
-Trade Allen 2 years ago when he had value instead of resigning him. Then sign a veteran goalie in the offseason if necessary.
-Trade Josh Anderson at the 2022 Draft
-Not use draft capital to Trade for a 5'10" forward whose archetype already saturates our system
-Not draft an ok defenseman instead of a forward whose talent was viewed as on par with Bedard until he stopped being able to play in international competitions and people forgot how good he actually is.
-Play Cayden Primeau in 2023, both for his development and because it offered us a chance of finishing lower
-Stop Cole Caufield from playing the second he started having shoulder problems. Possibly avoid surgery which still seems to be affecting him.
-Stop Monahan from playing the second he had foot trouble. There was no f***ing need for anyone to play hurt other than to stroke coach Bombay's ego and the player's needs to compete. They're not in charge, management is. SHUT THEM DOWN.
-Same this year with the overreliance on Montembeault. Coach Bombay is clearly going out of his way to desperately win games and that decisions should not be in his hands. Goalies should have been on rotation this year.
-I might've traded Savard for a second if it made us worse this year and netted us a higher pick. Next year's crop of UFAs is insane, so i don't know if we'll get what we want for Savard even if he doesn't fall off. To be determined on this one.

The rebuild will take what it takes. I'm not worried about anything on that front.

Hope you're right.

 

[Jaynki]

Timmins legacy of failing top 3 picks is not salvaged by a couple of nice depth player drafted in the late round.

A failed top 3 pick in 2012 has affected the prime of Price and Subban. Imagine we had Forsberg or Rielly instead.

Two franchise player have been picked after KK and they were pretty obvious pick. Again, how would have it helped in our cup run if we had Tkachuk instead of KK?

We can only speculate but failing a decade of 1st rounder is not salvaged by a couple good picks here and there. Just nailing one single pick in 2012-2014 could have changed the prime of Subban-Price with this team.

Admitedly, there were deep organisational issue with MB at the helm tho.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

We still need to see if our long-term development is better. That's definitely not a settled case yet. But you do believe development is a thing, which is more than I can say for some people on here

This is something we don't need to wait and see on. It's better. No doubt about it. Now, how good is it? That's another matter.

But we had the WORST development in the league. That is beyond debate as far as I'm concerned. We had blue chip prospects who dropped out of hockey altogether. We hired the worst coach in the league who bullied players and it's not a surprise at all that an entire generation of prospects was ruined, stunted or washed out altogether.

As I mentioned, the Galchenyuk/DD saga was the absolute stupidest thing I've ever witnessed and this is currently being discussed in the former player thread now. Yes we had people who denied that development was important. Those same people are having a wakeup now.

I mean, I'm not gonna go back to years ago. But let me try and find something:

Here's an article from our favorite bad-take beating post Grant McCagg, which reflects the feeling of Habs nation in 2017-2018 pretty well. Like most Hab fans, Grant was overrating, making excuses for, and overvaluing our prospects amidst their failures. This always happens in our fandom.

Habs Drafting Since 2012 – Good, Average or Barren?

recrutes.ca

You talk like Hab fandom is something unique... it is not. There are always fans who overrate their own players. As for McCagg, he's not really a neutral writer. He had ties to Timmins.

What I would say though is that the period from 2012-18 should've yielded more. Galchenyuk, Leblanc... they absolutely should've been better than they were. And we yielded almost nothing from later picks as well. That didn't happen before and it's not happening now. We're getting at least NHL quality players out of our picks, including late Timmins picks (2019 and on.)

So I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking we looked better than we did. Nobody knew Chuck was going to blow out his knee and nobody knew Leblanc was going to drop out. And that went for a whole slew of other players too.

That doesn't mean that Sherbek or Fischer weren't bad picks. But it should've been a better era than it was.

Their asset management has been ok, but as I mentioned in previous posts (and you didn't address those points, really), they've made mistakes, and some of their practices/decisions are concerning.

Our asset management has been pretty awesome. Look no further than Monahan who we got a first for coming and going. Tofoli got us a first. Romanov for Dach was a brilliant trade - derailed somewhat by injury but great nonetheless.

Again, we're comparing it to a terrible GM but MB was never able to get firsts or a center. We did it right off the hop.

-Not Hire a head of Scouting with no visible success in his career because he's your buddy.

We've had two drafts. The first might be the best draft we've had since 2007. I don't have any issues with our scouting. Buddies or not, scouting doesn't appear to be an issue.

-Trade Allen 2 years ago when he had value instead of resigning him. Then sign a veteran goalie in the offseason if necessary.

I don't see the point of this. We had a vet and we needed one so we kept him. Why trade a vet away only to get one back? You can argue we missed out on a pick but... how many picks do we need? We have an excess of picks/prospects as it is. That's why we didn't trade Savard.

-Trade Josh Anderson at the 2022 Draft

Yeah, I think we should've dealt Anderson at some point. I'm sure Hughes regrets this. But this is hardly a terrible move.

-Not use draft capital to Trade for a 5'10" forward whose archetype already saturates our system

I have zero problem with this.

-Not draft an ok defenseman instead of a forward whose talent was viewed as on par with Bedard until he stopped being able to play in international competitions and people forgot how good he actually is.

This is not a 'bad move' it's one you disagree with and shouldn't be included here. It's too early to know.

-Play Cayden Primeau in 2023, both for his development and because it offered us a chance of finishing lower

Who cares? He'll have all the icetime he wants.

-Stop Cole Caufield from playing the second he started having shoulder problems. Possibly avoid surgery which still seems to be affecting him.

You have no idea if this is true or not. Neither do I.

-Stop Monahan from playing the second he had foot trouble. There was no f***ing need for anyone to play hurt other than to stroke coach Bombay's ego and the player's needs to compete. They're not in charge, management is. SHUT THEM DOWN.

Who cares?

-Same this year with the overreliance on Montembeault. Coach Bombay is clearly going out of his way to desperately win games and that decisions should not be in his hands. Goalies should have been on rotation this year.

Montie has been great. I have no idea why you'd criticize his usage other than the fact that we were stuck with three goalies. He certainly hasn't been overused.

-I might've traded Savard for a second if it made us worse this year and netted us a higher pick. Next year's crop of UFAs is insane, so i don't know if we'll get what we want for Savard even if he doesn't fall off. To be determined on this one.

Again, tons of extra picks in the next two drafts. We're the second youngest team in the league. You have to have some vets to be able to take some of the load off. It's not worth it to get a low pick if it means you're hurting the development of the young players already in your lineup.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Timmins legacy of failing top 3 picks is not salvaged by a couple of nice depth player drafted in the late round.

A failed top 3 pick in 2012 has affected the prime of Price and Subban. Imagine we had Forsberg or Rielly instead.

Two franchise player have been picked after KK and they were pretty obvious pick. Again, how would have it helped in our cup run if we had Tkachuk instead of KK?

We can only speculate but failing a decade of 1st rounder is not salvaged by a couple good picks here and there. Just nailing one single pick in 2012-2014 could have changed the prime of Subban-Price with this team.

Admitedly, there were deep organisational issue with MB at the helm tho.

Galchenyuk remains in the top four scorers of that draft. And that’s after bottoming out early in his career. That’s not a draft issue. Feel free to go to the former player thread if you wish to discuss further.

Now KK in the other hand…

 

[Jaynki]

Galchenyuk remains in the top four scorers of that draft. And that’s after bottoming out early in his career. That’s not a draft issue.

Now KK in the other hand…

Well we can interpret the stats all we want, at the end of the day, Galchenyuk was a bust-pick and he did not contributed in any meaningful way to Price and Subban prime. Top pair defenseman were drafted after him.

I do agree that the issue here is not drafting related, in the sense of pure on-ice talent evaluation, but Timmins picked some sincere bum and they did not have the knack for the character they so much praised.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Well we can interpret the stats all we want, at the end of the day, Galchenyuk was a bust-pick and he did not contributed in any meaningful way to Price and Subban prime. Top pair defenseman were drafted after him.

No he's not a bust pick. He was the highest scoring player in that draft for years. He then ran into injuries and has now dropped to fourth. By any definition that's a good pick.

I do agree that the issue here is not drafting related, in the sense of pure on-ice talent evaluation, but Timmins picked some sincere bum and they did not have the knack for the character they so much praised.

Well, that leads into a development discussion. Feel free to take it up in the former player thread. I made reference to us hiring Larry Robinson as a coach there.

 

[salbutera]

Hertl has a full NMC, Montreal and the other Canadian teams are on most of them. If Montreal starts being a more competitive team then a player maybe willing to waive it.

I’m glad talking heads are starting to actually talk about Cdn markets being undesirable for players as they did on HNIC last night - specifically stating the tremendous advantage the 6-US tax free states have over Cdn markets and Bieksa providing the players perspective of offensive players not having to deal with Cdn media during a slump etc.

It’s about time, never understood why the obvious has been so hush hush / don’t talk about it for so long

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I’m glad talking heads are starting to actually talk about Cdn markets being undesirable for players as they did on HNIC last night - specifically stating the tremendous advantage the 6-US tax free states have over Cdn markets and Bieksa providing the players perspective of offensive players not having to deal with Cdn media during a slump etc.

It’s about time, never understood why the obvious has been so hush hush / don’t talk about it for so long

NHL needs to do something about it. Some kind of exemption or equalization…

 

[Twisted Sinister]

This is something we don't need to wait and see on. It's better. No doubt about it. Now, how good is it? That's another matter.

But we had the WORST development in the league. That is beyond debate as far as I'm concerned. We had blue chip prospects who dropped out of hockey altogether. We hired the worst coach in the league who bullied players and it's not a surprise at all that an entire generation of prospects was ruined, stunted or washed out altogether.

Yes, it appears to be better than the worst development that we had previously. That doesn't make it good. Not Terrible != Good.

We'll see how it goes.

As I mentioned, the Galchenyuk/DD saga was the absolute stupidest thing I've ever witnessed and this is currently being discussed in the former player thread now. Yes we had people who denied that development was important. Those same people are having a wakeup now.

Yep.

You talk like Hab fandom is something unique... it is not. There are always fans who overrate their own players. As for McCagg, he's not really a neutral writer. He had ties to Timmins.

We should be smarter than that.

What I would say though is that the period from 2012-18 should've yielded more. Galchenyuk, Leblanc... they absolutely should've been better than they were. And we yielded almost nothing from later picks as well. That didn't happen before and it's not happening now. We're getting at least NHL quality players out of our picks, including late Timmins picks (2019 and on.)

Chucky maybe. Leblanc was never a blue chipper. He was a jack of all trades, elite at none, which I find never translates well to the NHL. Very bad pick in my view.

So I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking we looked better than we did. Nobody knew Chuck was going to blow out his knee and nobody knew Leblanc was going to drop out. And that went for a whole slew of other players too.

That doesn't mean that Sherbek or Fischer weren't bad picks. But it should've been a better era than it was.

Our asset management has been pretty awesome. Look no further than Monahan who we got a first for coming and going. Tofoli got us a first. Romanov for Dach was a brilliant trade - derailed somewhat by injury but great nonetheless.

Dach being healthy figures into the evaluation of the trade. If the player had no issues, Chicago wouldn't have traded a 6'4" talented center. Hockey is results-based. Intentions and being clever don't mean squat if it doesn't pan out.

Again, we're comparing it to a terrible GM but MB was never able to get firsts or a center. We did it right off the hop.

We've had two drafts. The first might be the best draft we've had since 2007. I don't have any issues with our scouting. Buddies or not, scouting doesn't appear to be an issue.

Jumping the gun there. We'll see.

I don't see the point of this. We had a vet and we needed one so we kept him. Why trade a vet away only to get one back? You can argue we missed out on a pick but... how many picks do we need? We have an excess of picks/prospects as it is. That's why we didn't trade Savard.

Asset management, not taking on a 4 million dollar contract x2 that you then had to retain on. Resigning him was ok (although I would have preferred a trade.) More assets is always better than fewer assets, even if we already have a lot of assets.

Yeah, I think we should've dealt Anderson at some point. I'm sure Hughes regrets this. But this is hardly a terrible move.

It's pretty terrible. He's currently a Gallagher-esque dead contract for us when he was a valuable asset in 2022

I have zero problem with this.

Okay. I do.

This is not a 'bad move' it's one you disagree with and shouldn't be included here. It's too early to know.

I'll include what I please. All things I list are my opinion.

Who cares? He'll have all the icetime he wants.

I care. We coulda finished lower without our other goalies stealing us games last year and more development would have been good for him. I bet you anything coach Bombay is gonna overplay Monty and give him 75% of the starts till the end of this year too.

You have no idea if this is true or not. Neither do I.

I have a pretty good grasp of shoulder injuries. One thing you don't do when you have them is do a bunch of stuff that specifically puts strain on your shoulder.

Who cares?

This is not an argument. You can't just handwave f***ups by saying "who cares." They f***ed up.

Montie has been great. I have no idea why you'd criticize his usage other than the fact that we were stuck with three goalies. He certainly hasn't been overused.

Exactly. he's been great, stealing unnecessary points when you could have also been playing and developing Primeau while finishing lower to get a better player.

Again, tons of extra picks in the next two drafts. We're the second youngest team in the league. You have to have some vets to be able to take some of the load off. It's not worth it to get a low pick if it means you're hurting the development of the young players already in your lineup.

Hurting the development how? There's no evidence losing hurts anyone's development. Plenty of teams that tanked hard came back and won cups. They acquired top-end talent and then used crafty management to build around that talent, not the ass-backwards "culture"-focused way we're doing it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yes, it appears to be better than the worst development that we had previously. That doesn't make it good. Not Terrible != Good.

We'll see how it goes.

It's going well so far. Roy, CC, Guhle, Hutson and Slaf have all made huge gains in and outside the NHL.

Chucky maybe. Leblanc was never a blue chipper. He was a jack of all trades, elite at none, which I find never translates well to the NHL. Very bad pick in my view.

Leblanc went exactly where he was expected to go and was considred a very 'safe' pick. He wasnt' a blue chip star but he was a blue chip NHLer. And we didn't even get him past SL.

Go read the article he wrote. It's incredible and sad at the same time.

Dach being healthy figures into the evaluation of the trade. If the player had no issues, Chicago wouldn't have traded a 6'4" talented center. Hockey is results-based. Intentions and being clever don't mean squat if it doesn't pan out.

If you trade Josh Anderson for Sidney Crosby is a good trade? Yes it is. And it's a good trade whether Crosby gets hit by a bus or not.

Dach's injury had zero to do with previous health issues. It was a fluke and doesn't lessen the fact that it was a great move at the time.

Jumping the gun there. We'll see.

Hutson has already outperformed any expectation we could've possibly had. Slaf is improving by leaps and bounds. Waiting and seeing is fine but based on now it looks good.

Asset management, not taking on a 4 million dollar contract x2 that you then had to retain on. Resigning him was ok (although I would have preferred a trade.) More assets is always better than fewer assets, even if we already have a lot of assets.

Meh, not really. Again you want vets to offload from the kids. It made sense to re-sign him at the time and nobody really had an issue with it. Then Montie emerged and we all of a sudden had a good problem on our hands. To go after this is nit picking at best.

It's pretty terrible. He's currently a Gallagher-esque dead contract for us when he was a valuable asset in 2022

Again, I'm sure they regret not doing it. But they also didn't expect Anderson to start shitting his own pants.

Okay. I do.

You shouldn't. He's produced really well and had 5 goals in 7 games before getting hurt. He's come back and been an effective top sixer. At a miminum he's a good depth player with speed.

I'll include what I please. All things I list are my opinion.

It seems you are saying we need to wait and see on the positive but are ready to make judgements on the negative.

The fact is this: you don't know.

I care. We coulda finished lower without our other goalies stealing us games last year and more development would have been good for him. I bet you anything coach Bombay is gonna overplay Monty till the end of this year too.

You don't ruin a prospect to tank lower. It doesn't work that way. It'd be the same with trading away Savard. Whatever return you get for him is going to be worse in terms of how the younger players develop.

I have a pretty good grasp of shoulder injuries. One thing you don't do when you have them is do a bunch of stuff that specifically puts strain on your shoulder.

He's top ten in shots. All the underlying play is an improvement over anything he's done. He's throwing hits every night. That shoulder doesn't seem to be a problem.

Why he's not scoring... I don't know. I don't know if CC knows. But if it was a shoulder issue I doubt he'd be playing the way he is.

I'm suffering with frozen shoulder right now btw... 15 months in.

This is not an argument. You can't just handwave f***ups by saying "who cares." They f***ed up.

Nobody cares. We got a first for him coming and going. Monahan is playing well for the Jets. He's an injury prone player and it's not a suprise he got hurt. And we dealt him before he inevitably gets hurt again. I don't even know why you have this here. We got TWO firsts for that guy. That is a f***ing magic trick and belongs on the positive side of the ledger.

Exactly. he's been great, stealing unnecessary points when you could have also been playing and developing Primeau while finishing lower to get a better player.

Coaches are not going to intentionally tank. It doesn't happen. Nobody is going to play an inferior goalie man. And they certainly aren't going to do it when that goalie is young and you're going to ruin him. This isn't Playstation.

Hurting the development how? There's no evidence losing hurts anyone's development. Plenty of teams that tanked hard came back and won cups. They acquired top-end talent and then used crafty management to build around that talent, not the ass-backwards "culture"-focused way we're doing it.

How? By exposing the 2nd youngest team in the league to defensive assignments they aren't ready for? I don't think Hughes was against trading Savard but it wasn't going to be for a 2nd. Nobody wanted to offer a first... okay cool, keep the guy.

And we're already 'tanking hard'. We already had a first. We already had a top five and we're going to have another top ten now. Add to that the sheer volume of picks and prospects we've dealt for. This is a classic rebuild. Exactly what we're supposed to do.

Your criticisms here may have some validity but over all it's pretty ticky-tacky stuff. Big picture wise we're stockpiling picks and prospects. Exactly what we're supposed to do. Yeah, we could've dealt Anderson or whatever but it's more than made up for with moves like Monahan. The reality is that we have to wait and see where we're going... just like the Bruins did with Pasta, Ottawa did with Chara and Tampa did with Kucherov. It takes time before you know how good those players are.

 

[Bacchus1]

All I know is that if I see Mark Stone "suddenly" be deemed fit to play in the post-season when he allegedly has a lacerated spleen that should take 6 MONTHS from which to recover, then the league is officially bullshit and someone needs to call the FBI because this is criminal racketeering going on.

I can see in the future applying the cap to the playoffs in some way. Circumnavigating the cap with LTIR than ends as the playoffs begin is clear manipulation of the spirit of the law. Good on those teams for exploiting a loophole, but I can imagine it being shut down.

 

[Twisted Sinister]

It's going well so far. Roy, CC, Guhle, Hutson and Slaf have all made huge gains in and outside the NHL.

Some players are just good. Hutson's development has nothing to do with us. He's in college. Everyone else has to pan out. Guhle has to stay healthy, Slaf needs to be more consistent, Roy's doing well, he needs to keep it up.

Leblanc went exactly where he was expected to go and was considred a very 'safe' pick. He wasnt' a blue chip star but he was a blue chip NHLer. And we didn't even get him past SL.

Again, my opinion was that he was a bad pick, even at the time. In the first round, you draft people with the potential to be elite. You don'tdraft guys with no tools.

Go read the article he wrote. It's incredible and sad at the same time.

I'll look into it.

If you trade Josh Anderson for Sidney Crosby is a good trade? Yes it is. And it's a good trade whether Crosby gets hit by a bus or not.

Dach's injury had zero to do with previous health issues. It was a fluke and doesn't lessen the fact that it was a great move at the time.

Complete conjecture on my part, but I'm getting injury prone vibes from both him and his brother. Trading Anderson for Crosby doesn't happen. Romanov becoming a high first that became Dach is not the same thing. It was trading a Romanov for a first round pick which was flipped for a huge roll of the dice. There's a reason many on here were hesitant to trade for Dach, and inventing different trade scenarios that aren't comparable doesn't mean we shouldn't evaluate the eventual results of this trade.

Hutson has already outperformed any expectation we could've possibly had. Slaf is improving by leaps and bounds. Waiting and seeing is fine but based on now it looks good.

Slaf's doing well. he needs to maintain consistency and produce well. He is, on the first line after all. I know we all wanted something like 40 points out of him at the start of the season, but he's playing on the first line with our most talented guys. I'm not gonna move the goal posts, but he definitely needs to go crazy next year if he stays there.

Hutson's honestly performing how I expected him to. I was always very high on him.

Meh, not really. Again you want vets to offload from the kids. It made sense to re-sign him at the time and nobody really had an issue with it. Then Montie emerged and we all of a sudden had a good problem on our hands. To go after this is nit picking at best.

Agree to disagree. I think this was a wonky contract that we've had to waste a retention slot next year on to get rid of. This, in addition to the Petry slot, leaves us with only one next year.

Again, I'm sure they regret not doing it. But they also didn't expect Anderson to start shitting his own pants.

His hockey sense has always been pretty bad. This was not super shocking to anyone. Maybe him being THIS bad was a little shocking, but no one is shocked by a falloff.

You shouldn't. He's produced really well and had 5 goals in 7 games before getting hurt. He's come back and been an effective top sixer. At a miminum he's a good depth player with speed.

I would have used that draft capital for the type of players we don't actually have in our system.

It seems you are saying we need to wait and see on the positive but are ready to make judgements on the negative.

The fact is this: you don't know.

Nor do you. You are doing the same thing positively.

You don't ruin a prospect to tank lower. It doesn't work that way. It'd be the same with trading away Savard. Whatever return you get for him is going to be worse in terms of how the younger players develop.

There is no evidence that losing hurts your team long-term. plenty of teams have been the worst teams in the league and then won cups once they rebuilt.

He's top ten in shots. All the underlying play is an improvement over anything he's done. He's throwing hits every night. That shoulder doesn't seem to be a problem.

Why he's not scoring... I don't know. I don't know if CC knows. But if it was a shoulder issue I doubt he'd be playing the way he is.

Depending on the injury, different motions could be the issue. His shot doesn't seem to have the zip it had in previous years. Just an observation. In all fairness, I think he'll be better next year after a summer of rest.

I'm suffering with frozen shoulder right now btw... 15 months in.

Sorry to hear it.

Nobody cares. We got a first for him coming and going. Monahan is playing well for the Jets. He's an injury prone player and it's not a suprise he got hurt. And we dealt him before he inevitably gets hurt again. I don't even know why you have this here. We got TWO firsts for that guy. That is a f***ing magic trick and belongs on the positive side of the ledger.

Yes. the two picks we got are good (awesome even). But playing him injured was a mistake and indicative of a problem with priorities at some level of management, in my view..

Coaches are not going to intentionally tank. It doesn't happen. Nobody is going to play an inferior goalie man. And they certainly aren't going to do it when that goalie is young and you're going to ruin him. This isn't Playstation.

Sure, Bergy.

This is where management needs to override coaching and be like "Hey, what's up, Coach Bombay. I know you want to win every game due to your chronic Napoleon complex and have guys skate through walls for you, but we need to showcase Allen and give Primeau some development, so please play all goalies evenly."

How? By exposing the 2nd youngest team in the league to defensive assignments they aren't ready for? I don't think Hughes was against trading Savard but it wasn't going to be for a 2nd. Nobody wanted to offer a first... okay cool, keep the guy.

Sure. There is no evidence that losing hurts your team long-term. plenty of teams have been the worst teams in the league and then won cups once they rebuilt.

And we're already 'tanking hard'. We already had a first. We already had a top five and we're going to have another top ten now. Add to that the sheer volume of picks and prospects we've dealt for. This is a classic rebuild. Exactly what we're supposed to do.

Your criticisms here may have some validity but over all it's pretty ticky-tacky stuff. Big picture wise we're stockpiling picks and prospects. Exactly what we're supposed to do. Yeah, we could've dealt Anderson or whatever but it's more than made up for with moves like Monahan. The reality is that we have to wait and see where we're going... just like the Bruins did with Pasta, Ottawa did with Chara and Tampa did with Kucherov. It takes time before you know how good those players are.

Problem is I just don't see the guys with those tools in the system. I don't see a future Chara or a future Hedman, or a future Kopitar, or a future Pasta.

For ceilings, I see a potential future Burns in Mailloux. I see a potential future Rantanen in Slaf. Maybe a Richer in Caufield if he gets it together. Reinbacher gives me Darnell Nurse vibes... Not sure what his ceiling is, but I hope I'm wrong. Guhle looks like... A much better-skating Weber without the shot? Hutson could be Fox, but he needs to learn how to Markov with his stick defensively.

All potentially good pieces of the puzzle, but my issue is that a tank is the time to be acquiring guaranteed top end talent, and that's where we're f***ing up, other than my nit-picks, as you call them. That would be my MAJOR issue.

 

[26Mats]

With all the teams looking for offense, it's really surprising Toffoli went for such a low return.

The Islanders barely have 4 forwards on pace to score more than 40 points in 82 games!

 

[The Real Timo]

Test

…. Hmm. Can’t login through browser on pc.

 

[salbutera]

Timmins legacy of failing top 3 picks is not salvaged by a couple of nice depth player drafted in the late round.

A failed top 3 pick in 2012 has affected the prime of Price and Subban. Imagine we had Forsberg or Rielly instead.

Two franchise player have been picked after KK and they were pretty obvious pick. Again, how would have it helped in our cup run if we had Tkachuk instead of KK?

We can only speculate but failing a decade of 1st rounder is not salvaged by a couple good picks here and there. Just nailing one single pick in 2012-2014 could have changed the prime of Subban-Price with this team.

Admitedly, there were deep organisational issue with MB at the helm tho.

It’s not just Timmins, Habs 1st round selections post Gainey in 1973 are atrocious - probably the worst in the NHL. Until 2007 all that was to show for in terms of legit top-6F / top-4D was Napier, Koivu & maybe a case could be made for Svoboda & Corson

That includes a slew of 1st round picks the Habs had every draft in the 70s.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Some players are just good. Hutson's development has nothing to do with us. He's in college. Everyone else has to pan out. Guhle has to stay healthy, Slaf needs to be more consistent, Roy's doing well, he needs to keep it up.

But it’s going well so far. It’s okay, you can say so. Like we said, it’s early but it looks good now.

Again, my opinion was that he was a bad pick, even at the time. In the first round, you draft people with the potential to be elite. You don'tdraft guys with no tools.

I'll look into it.

You take what the draft gives you. He went right where he was expected.

And again, the question wasn’t whether he had huge upside or not, it’s about development. If you felt he didn’t have a high ceiling that’s fine it doesn’t mean he wasn’t a safe pick or went where he was supposed to. And most importantly- he STILL didn’t make the NHL because our development was worst in the league.

Complete conjecture on my part, but I'm getting injury prone vibes from both him and his brother. Trading Anderson for Crosby doesn't happen. Romanov becoming a high first that became Dach is not the same thing. It was trading a Romanov for a first round pick which was flipped for a huge roll of the dice. There's a reason many on here were hesitant to trade for Dach, and inventing different trade scenarios that aren't comparable doesn't mean we shouldn't evaluate the eventual results of this trade.

Fluke injuries aren’t predictable. See my Crosby example (of course it would never happen) that underlies the point here. It’s a good trade regardless.

Slaf's doing well. he needs to maintain consistency and produce well. He is, on the first line after all. I know we all wanted something like 40 points out of him at the start of the season, but he's playing on the first line with our most talented guys. I'm not gonna move the goal posts, but he definitely needs to go crazy next year if he stays there.

Hutson's honestly performing how I expected him to. I was always very high on him.

Okay

Agree to disagree. I think this was a wonky contract that we've had to waste a retention slot next year on to get rid of. This, in addition to the Petry slot, leaves us with only one next year.



His hockey sense has always been pretty bad. This was not super shocking to anyone. Maybe him being THIS bad was a little shocking, but no one is shocked by a falloff.



I would have used that draft capital for the type of players we don't actually have in our system.

At best these three points are nitpicky stuff. I disagree on Newhook and Allen. Anderson, in retrospect they’d have taken whatever they could. But this is not the kind of mistake that’s concerning.

Nor do you. You are doing the same thing positively.

I’m looking at results that we can see and measure. The players we’ve drafted since 2019 have been developing really nicely. That’s based on what we know now.

What we don’t/can’t know is how good they’ll be as NHL players.

There is no evidence that losing hurts your team long-term. plenty of teams have been the worst teams in the league and then won cups once they rebuilt.

I have zero problems losing. If I did, I wouldn’t be for rebuilding.

But when you have a young team like this it makes sense to have a couple of vets to help with development and sheltering. Having a Savard in the lineup takes the heat off of younger players and improves development. It’s not going to hurt your rebuild and he remains a tradeable asset as well.

Depending on the injury, different motions could be the issue. His shot doesn't seem to have the zip it had in previous years. Just an observation. In all fairness, I think he'll be better next year after a summer of rest.

No matter what he should have more goals than he does.

Yes. the two picks we got are good (awesome even). But playing him injured was a mistake and indicative of a problem with priorities at some level of management, in my view..

Meh… this is not worth listing.

Sure, Bergy.

Don’t make me hurt you.

This is where management needs to override coaching and be like "Hey, what's up, Coach Bombay. I know you want to win every game due to your chronic Napoleon complex and have guys skate through walls for you, but we need to showcase Allen and give Primeau some development, so please play all goalies evenly."

How is “showcasing” Allen going to help when he was consistently bad? Better off just hiding how bad he’s been.

Sure. There is no evidence that losing hurts your team long-term. plenty of teams have been the worst teams in the league and then won cups once they rebuilt.

Again, by all means lose. Nobody disagrees with this. Btw, we’re doing a great job of losing again this year.

Problem is I just don't see the guys with those tools in the system. I don't see a future Chara or a future Hedman, or a future Kopitar, or a future Pasta.

You’re missing the point again. NONE of those guys were obvious superstars either. You have to wait for it to emerge.

Moreover, I already gave you reasons why we may have a date in our lineup already.

For ceilings, I see a potential future Burns in Mailloux. I see a potential future Rantanen in Slaf. Maybe a Richer in Caufield if he gets it together. Reinbacher gives me Darnell Nurse vibes... Not sure what his ceiling is, but I hope I'm wrong. Guhle looks like... A much better-skating Weber without the shot? Hutson could be Fox, but he needs to learn how to Markov with his stick defensively.

All potentially good pieces of the puzzle, but my issue is that a tank is the time to be acquiring guaranteed top end talent, and that's where we're f***ing up, other than my nit-picks, as you call them. That would be my MAJOR issue.

You can only take what the draft gives you. In 2022 it’s looking like we got the best player in the draft - maybe the two best from that draft. We have three young players/prospects who were winning titles or setting records. I’m not sure how you can discount that and say - ‘well I don’t see any stars’… you have to have some patience man.

 

[Andy]

too add to Lafleur's Guy argument:

Literally no one expected Pacioretty to be more than a 3rd liner. No one even described him as a goal scorer. He was seen as a playmaker. No one would have predicted he'd be one of the top scoring left wingers in the game during his time with the habs.

patience.

 

[The Real Timo]

too add to Lafleur's Guy argument:

Literally no one expected Pacioretty to be more than a 3rd liner. No one even described him as a goal scorer. He was seen as a playmaker. No one would have predicted he'd be one of the top scoring left wingers in the game during his time with the habs.

patience.

And to think that we got him and gorgeous Gorges for Rivet. lol.

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

It seems to me the Habs are doing a better job of drafting and developing players under KH. I do agree with @Lafleurs Guy that Gainey seemed better at developing NHLers than MB, but I also think that TT drafted quite poorly. I wouldn't say that Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi were busts, they are/were decent NHLers, but they were clearly bad choices in retrospect. As was Leblanc, and many others. They seemed to draft for need a bit too often for my taste. Nobody will hit on all of their picks, but TT had enough swings and I also just didn't really like something in the way he interacted with people.

In terms of development, Suzuki is the Habs best player and he was developed by MB. I do think the way development is handled matters sometimes, but the bulk of development is done by the players themselves. Hopefully KH & JG have figured out the right recipe. There's no question D&D are the keys to building a solid team for the future, and they seem to be cognizant of that fact. I have been encouraged personally in this regard by the play of Slafkofsky.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It seems to me the Habs are doing a better job of drafting and developing players under KH. I do agree with @Lafleurs Guy that Gainey seemed better at developing NHLers than MB, but I also think that TT drafted quite poorly. I wouldn't say that Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi were busts, they are/were decent NHLers, but they were clearly bad choices in retrospect. As was Leblanc, and many others. They seemed to draft for need a bit too often for my taste. Nobody will hit on all of their picks, but TT had enough swings and I also just didn't really like something in the way he interacted with people.

I think Timmins deserves some blame. There were clearly some bad picks.

I don't agree that Leblanc or Chuck were among them. Again, even now Chuck is like fourth in scoring in that draft. He was the right pick. Leblanc also went right were expected.

KK was clearly a reach. Started off well and maybe we didn't do the best job with him. But in retrospect I don't see how the pick can be defended. And then there are just flat out busts like Fischer. So... yeah, Timmins has his own issues.

But development was worst in league. It's not an exaggeration to say this. And again, it doesn't surprise me at all to see Timmins late (2019 onward) picks suddenly becoming good NHL prospects.

In terms of development, Suzuki is the Habs best player and he was developed by MB. I do think the way development is handled matters sometimes, but the bulk of development is done by the players themselves. Hopefully KH & JG have figured out the right recipe. There's no question D&D are the keys to building a solid team for the future, and they seem to be cognizant of that fact. I have been encouraged personally in this regard by the play of Slafkofsky.

A player can only develop when given the chance. When we got Suzuki, we had traded for him and there really wasn't an alternative. He enjoyed the best ice with the best linemates for his time here. And to his credit, he was good enough to do it.

It clearly didn't matter how good Galchneyuk was. He was not going to get the first line role. Desharnais went 20 games without a point and Chuck was STILL used on the 2nd or 3rd. It was an insane way to run a club.

And look at what's happened since. CC struggled, got moved up in the lineup and succeeded. Suzuki was high in the lineup and succeeeded. Slaf struggled, got moved up... succeeded. Same thing with Roy and Newhook.

Usage matters. A lot.

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

I think Timmins deserves some blame. There were clearly some bad picks.

I don't agree that Leblanc or Chuck were among them. Again, even now Chuck is like fourth in scoring in that draft. He was the right pick. Leblanc also went right were expected.

KK was clearly a reach. Started off well and maybe we didn't do the best job with him. But in retrospect I don't see how the pick can be defended. And then there are just flat out busts like Fischer. So... yeah, Timmins has his own issues.

But development was worst in league. It's not an exaggeration to say this. And again, it doesn't surprise me at all to see Timmins late (2019 onward) picks suddenly becoming good NHL prospects.

A player can only develop when given the chance. When we got Suzuki, we had traded for him and there really wasn't an alternative. He enjoyed the best ice with the best linemates for his time here. And to his credit, he was good enough to do it.

It clearly didn't matter how good Galchneyuk was. He was not going to get the first line role. Desharnais went 20 games without a point and Chuck was STILL used on the 2nd or 3rd. It was an insane way to run a club.

And look at what's happened since. CC struggled, got moved up in the lineup and succeeded. Suzuki was high in the lineup and succeeeded. Slaf struggled, got moved up... succeeded. Same thing with Roy and Newhook.

Usage matters. A lot.

Suzuki started on the 4th line, worked his way up.

Agree to disagree on Galchenyuk and LeBlanc. I wouldn't call them busts (maybe LeBlanc), but I wouldn't call them good picks either. I agree that their development wasn't perfect, but they were both also lacking important qualities themselves, and as a result ended up being poor picks. And Galchenyuk will keep falling down that scoring list, so enjoy that line while you can (in fact, I think he's already 5th now, and will be by passed some more unless he makes it back to the NHL). 2012 was a good year for defensemen.