Top five in goals & assists in same season

[BenchBrawl]

Anybody got the results for point-per-game handy?

 

[livewell68]

This thread proves just how dominant and valuable Jagr really was in his prime.

.... and some posters want to claim he's overrated?

He's easily been the best player of the past 25 years after Lemieux and Gretzky.

Then you add what he's done this year at age 44 (in a league that's apparently harder to stand out) Jagr's claim for the 5th best player of all-time is ever more evident.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Roster Stability

Dividing it into 4 equal blocks of 12 seasons each:

From 1968 - 1979, there were 24 such player seasons.

From 1980 - 1991, there were 15 such seasons.

From 1992 - 2003, there were 10 such seasons.

From 2004-2016, there were 5 such seasons.

Interesting to note the increasing specialization of player roles.

You always had a high level of specialization of player roles. Only difference is that today you do not have roster stability which keeps players together for any length of time.

Bossy played with Trottier his complete career with some time apart due to injury. Howe and Delvecchio were linemates longer than most couples were married. Gretzky and Kurri. Countless other examples.

Present day NHL there is one example of similar on ice chemistry - the Sedin brothers in Vancouver.

 

[authentic]

Not surprised to see Crosby/Ovechkin not on the list. Yin and yang when it comes to goals & apples.

Ovechkin would have been in 09/10 and Crosby in 10/11 if they played a full season.

Dividing it into 4 equal blocks of 12 seasons each:

From 1968 - 1979, there were 24 such player seasons.

From 1980 - 1991, there were 15 such seasons.

From 1992 - 2003, there were 10 such seasons.

From 2004-2016, there were 5 such seasons.

Interesting to note the increasing specialization of player roles.

Yeah that is pretty interesting. Not that surprising though.

 

[Czech Your Math]

Dividing it into 4 equal blocks of 12 seasons each:

From 1968 - 1979, there were 24 such player seasons.

From 1980 - 1991, there were 15 such seasons.

From 1992 - 2003, there were 10 such seasons.

From 2004-2016, there were 5 such seasons.

Interesting to note the increasing specialization of player roles.

I don't think it's increasing specialization, but rather league integration and more opportunities (more teams and/or more parity). For most of '80s, it was Gretzky that accomplished this. Then Lemieux & Jagr. If not for the integrated league, several other players probably would have done this more than once (Yzerman, Lindros, Sakic, Naslund, Malkin, Crosby, Benn). The '70s was a handful of elite forwards at the top, with little depth IMO, and it was even thinner during much of Espo's peak (besides Espo/Orr, it was mainly the late primes of '60s holdovers, until Lafleur & Dionne really hit their strides).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't think it's increasing specialization, but rather league integration and more opportunities (more teams and/or more parity). For most of '80s, it was Gretzky that accomplished this. Then Lemieux & Jagr. If not for the integrated league, several other players probably would have done this more than once (Yzerman, Lindros, Sakic, Naslund, Malkin, Crosby, Benn). The '70s was a handful of elite forwards at the top, with little depth IMO, and it was even thinner during much of Espo's peak (besides Espo/Orr, it was mainly the late primes of '60s holdovers, until Lafleur & Dionne really hit their strides).

I originally thought that it was probably due to an increasing quality of the league - the fall of the WHA in 1980, the European integration around 1993. But that wouldn't explain why this has become even more rare over the last 10-15 years.

 

[livewell68]

I originally thought that it was probably due to an increasing quality of the league - the fall of the WHA in 1980, the European integration around 1993. But that wouldn't explain why this has become even more rare over the last 10-15 years.

What does that say to Jagr's ability then when he has 3 of those such seasons over the past 15 years? Meanwhile, only Sakic, Naslund, Malkin, St.Louis, Daniel Sedin and Kane have done it one apiece.

Could it be that maybe the higher end talent is not as talented as say it was between 1992 and 2003 (the blocks you provided)?

 

[MXD]

If anything, the fact Jagr did it so often, while other players with reasonably similar talent levels didn't, simply means that Jagr was either more healthy or had a more balanced skillset. Not that he was a better player -- though he might have been. Both aren't mutually exclusive (at Jagr's talent level).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What does that say to Jagr's ability then when he has 3 of those such seasons over the past 15 years? Meanwhile, only Sakic, Naslund, Malkin, St.Louis, Daniel Sedin and Kane have done it one apiece.

Could it be that maybe the higher end talent is not as talented as say it was between 1992 and 2003 (the blocks you provided)?

It's theoretically possible, but I generally consider any argument based on the idea that the current generation of players is so much weaker than any previous generation to be a non-starter.

 

[livewell68]

If anything, the fact Jagr did it so often, while other players with reasonably similar talent levels didn't, simply means that Jagr was either more healthy or had a more balanced skillset. Not that he was a better player -- though he might have been. Both aren't mutually exclusive (at Jagr's talent level).

Health might have been a factor, however Jagr was not always 100% healthy either, as evidence by his 1996-97 and 1999-00 seasons. In those two seasons, he accomplished the feat in 1999-00 but most likely would have done it in 1996-97 as well. In fact in 1996-97, his pace indicates that he would have been first in goals and 5th in assists had he played all season long.

You can use the health argument if you like, but the fact of the matter is that he was always top 5 in GPG (goals per game) and APG (assists per game) as well. So really, if anything, he would have had a 6th season of being top 5 in both goals and assists in the same season.

What are not included in those 5 seasons are 1994-95 when he was 2nd in goals, but not top 5 in assists and 1997-98 when he led the league in assists but finished 7th in goals, as well as his 2006-07 seasons (4th in assists at age 35 playing with a bum shoulder) but just managed 30 goals.

I find it odd that the History section has a tendency to overlook or simply diminish Jagr's contributions, when they are the very same bunch of people who raise Bobby Hull's, Richard's, Lafleur's or Esposito's accomplishments when it is quite evident who had to face the better competition overall.

If one uses an arbitrary time period of 1994 to 2001 (Jagr's prime years), you remove Lemieux from the equation and Jagr leads all players in GPG (finishing ahead of Selanne, Bure and Bondra surprisingly) and APG (finishing ahead of Forsberg), so I would say that Jagr's accomplishments speak to his talent, dominance and durability. Durability should also not be viewed as some sort of lucky attribute, Jagr was built strong and big but he also put in the work to keep himself fit and healthy enough. I don't think there were really many players that had similar talent levels to Jagr, maybe Lindros at his best? Selanne, Bure, Sakic, Forsberg and Karyia were not in the same league as Jagr was overall as an offensive player.

That Jagr is tied with Lafleur, Dionne, Mikita, Denneny and Lemieux for the 3rd most such seasons should really put into perspective just how dominant and great Jagr was in his prime. You don't accomplish what Jagr accomplished just by simply being healthier and "lucky".

A more recent comparison or example would be Malkin (when healthy) and Crosby when it comes to players being equally great at scoring goals and setting players up. Jagr was the far better playmaker than Malkin is while he was also a generally better goalscorer than Crosby is.

 

[livewell68]

It's theoretically possible, but I generally consider any argument based on the idea that the current generation of players is so much weaker than any previous generation to be a non-starter.

Question for you then.

Do you consider the post-expansion era to be a weak one overall when it comes to higher end talent, especially at the forward position?

What I want to know is that if you truly believe that every ensuing generation is better than the previous one.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Question for you then.

Do you consider the post-expansion era to be a weak one overall when it comes to higher end talent, especially at the forward position?

What I want to know is that if you truly believe that every ensuing generation is better than the previous one.

I do not believe that every generation is better than the previous one, and I have no idea how you got that from my posts.

However, I also don't believe that the generation I grew up watching just happens to be better better than every other generation

 

[authentic]

If anything, the fact Jagr did it so often, while other players with reasonably similar talent levels didn't, simply means that Jagr was either more healthy or had a more balanced skillset. Not that he was a better player -- though he might have been. Both aren't mutually exclusive (at Jagr's talent level).

Yeah I pretty much agree with all of this, however from 94-01 Jagr was quite clearly the best offensive player, except Lemieux from 95-97.

 

[authentic]

I do not believe that every generation is better than the previous one, and I have no idea how you got that from my posts.

However, I also don't believe that the generation I grew up watching just happens to be better better than every other generation

Yeah I mean if there is a difference it's not very big either way. I think the 90s may have had slightly more top end talent, but I also think the opposite could be true in favour of todays era it's just not supported by the numbers or the consistent elite production of as many players but for reasons other than talent level which have all been discussed at length here.

 

[MXD]

Health might have been a factor, however Jagr was not always 100% healthy either, as evidence by his 1996-97 and 1999-00 seasons. In those two seasons, he accomplished the feat in 1999-00 but most likely would have done it in 1996-97 as well. In fact in 1996-97, his pace indicates that he would have been first in goals and 5th in assists had he played all season long.

You can use the health argument if you like, but the fact of the matter is that he was always top 5 in GPG (goals per game) and APG (assists per game) as well. So really, if anything, he would have had a 6th season of being top 5 in both goals and assists in the same season.

What are not included in those 5 seasons are 1994-95 when he was 2nd in goals, but not top 5 in assists and 1997-98 when he led the league in assists but finished 7th in goals, as well as his 2006-07 seasons (4th in assists at age 35 playing with a bum shoulder) but just managed 30 goals.

I find it odd that the History section has a tendency to overlook or simply diminish Jagr's contributions, when they are the very same bunch of people who raise Bobby Hull's, Richard's, Lafleur's or Esposito's accomplishments when it is quite evident who had to face the better competition overall.

If one uses an arbitrary time period of 1994 to 2001 (Jagr's prime years), you remove Lemieux from the equation and Jagr leads all players in GPG (finishing ahead of Selanne, Bure and Bondra surprisingly) and APG (finishing ahead of Forsberg), so I would say that Jagr's accomplishments speak to his talent, dominance and durability. Durability should also not be viewed as some sort of lucky attribute, Jagr was built strong and big but he also put in the work to keep himself fit and healthy enough. I don't think there were really many players that had similar talent levels to Jagr, maybe Lindros at his best? Selanne, Bure, Sakic, Forsberg and Karyia were not in the same league as Jagr was overall as an offensive player.

That Jagr is tied with Lafleur, Dionne, Mikita, Denneny and Lemieux for the 3rd most such seasons should really put into perspective just how dominant and great Jagr was in his prime. You don't accomplish what Jagr accomplished just by simply being healthier and "lucky".

A more recent comparison or example would be Malkin (when healthy) and Crosby when it comes to players being equally great at scoring goals and setting players up. Jagr was the far better playmaker than Malkin is while he was also a generally better goalscorer than Crosby is.

You know, you might have written only Jagr = God, and the content would've been ultimately the same.

 

[livewell68]

I do not believe that every generation is better than the previous one, and I have no idea how you got that from my posts.

However, I also don't believe that the generation I grew up watching just happens to be better better than every other generation

I don't either. I grew up on 90's hockey, I do think that the O6 and 80's hockey was on par with 90's hockey.

 

[livewell68]

You know, you might have written only Jagr = God, and the content would've been ultimately the same.

Thanks for giving a well thought response to a badly a written post.

 

[VanIslander]

Player|# Seasons

Denneny Cy|5
Morenz Howie|4
Nighbor Frank|3
Joliat Aurele|2
Lalonde Newsy|2
Denneny Corbett|2
Schriner Sweeney|2
Malone Joe|2
Dye Babe|1
Fredrickson Frank|1
Goodfellow Ebbie|1
Drillon Gordie|1
Boucher Billy|1
Bailey Ace I.|1
Noble Reg|1
Hay George|1
Hextall Bryan Sr.|1
Weiland Cooney|1
Conacher Roy|1
Irvin Dick|1
Jackson Busher|1
Broadbent Harry Punch|1
Burch Billy|1
Cleghorn Odie|1
Conacher Charlie|1

[/CENTER]

Thanks for including the early era NHLers.

• I'm surprised about Billy Boucher. I hadn't realized he had a great year.
• Weiland's 1 must have been the one and only year the NHL changed the rules to allow players to receive passes from anywhere and he parked himself by the opposing goal and just waited for the puck to be passed from his own end!
• It's amazing how many greats had only one season top-5 in goals and assists.
• Cy Denneny is underrated, often not even top-100 in all-time draft selection, perhaps due to perceived weight issues, but such production for his era is incredible.

 

[MXD]

Thanks for including the early era NHLers.

• I'm surprised about Billy Boucher. I hadn't realized he had a great year.
• Weiland's 1 must have been the one and only year the NHL changed the rules to allow players to receive passes from anywhere and he parked himself by the opposing goal and just waited for the puck to be passed from his own end!
• It's amazing how many greats had only one season top-5 in goals and assists.
• Cy Denneny is underrated, often not even top-100 in all-time draft selection, perhaps due to perceived weight issues, but such production for his era is incredible.

On Boucher : That was during Joliat's big season where he would've won everything had he not missed a few games (Joliat also missed the mark for assists, finishing 6th-T). Note Boucher was the 3rd best player on his line.

On Weiland : Yep. Only time he made it in the Top-5 for goals and assists (separately)

On Denneny : His playmaking is probably underrated. The rest of his game is not.

On Fredrickson : He's probably the great you're referring to, and it's actually surprising he did it, considering only his 31+ seasons are counted. If it was Jackson... well... I don't know, I'm not particularily surprised myself, considering he doesn't really have a rep for playmaking, and his goal-to-assist ratio look very even compared to Conacher... which is quite a caveat.

On Goodfellow : I shouldn't be surprised that he achieved this, but somehow I am.

 

[Czech Your Math]

It's theoretically possible, but I generally consider any argument based on the idea that the current generation of players is so much weaker than any previous generation to be a non-starter.

We're not really talking about a generation of players, so much as the extreme out-liers of each generation. It's become rarer, because it takes such an extraordinary and balanced season to accomplish this feat since the league became integrated... and "the big 3" have not been as extraordinary as Gretzky, Lemieux or Jagr were in this respect.

If the league weren't integrated, then there would be multiple players who could have done it multiple times in each generation (Lemieux, Jagr, Lindros, Sakic... Naslund... Malkin, Crosby, Benn).

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Update for 2017: nobody had a "five and five" season this year. Kane, who accomplished the feat last year, came closest (he was five goals away).

 

[Hockey Outsider]

This thread (specifically the first post) has been updated after the data migration on HFBoards. Let me know if you see any errors/problems.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Update for 2018: nobody had a "five and five" season this year. Connor McDavid was very close (he was one goal out of the top five, and finished third in assists). Nikita Kucherov was also fairly close (three goals and two assists out of the top five in each category).

 

[The Panther]

The revival of this thread makes me think Guy Lafleur is starting to get under-rated.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The revival of this thread makes me think Guy Lafleur is starting to get under-rated.

Yeah.