Top-40 Stanley Cup Playoff Performers - Voting Results

[Dennis Bonvie]

Martin Brodeur 103-91

Non Cup winning seasons 65-72


Billy Smith 88-36

Non Cup winning seasons 31-23


I don't get why Billy Smith is getting no respect. He was huge in the playoffs.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Vote 8

Round 1 Participants

Player | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th | None | Total Jacques Lemaire | 2 | | 2 | | | 1 | 2 | | | | 2 | 49
Duncan Keith | | 2 | 2 | | 1 | | | | 2 | | 2 | 44
Billy Smith | 1 | | 1 | | 3 | 1 | | | | 1 | 2 | 42
Frank Foyston | | 2 | | 1 | | 2 | 1 | | | | 3 | 39
Dickie Moore | 1 | 2 | 1 | | | | | | | 1 | 4 | 37
Frank McGee | 2 | 1 | | | 1 | | | | | | 5 | 35
Tim Horton | 1 | | 1 | 2 | | | | | 1 | | 4 | 34
Paul Coffey | 1 | | 1 | | 1 | | | 1 | | 1 | 4 | 28
Ray Bourque | | 1 | | 1 | | 1 | | | 1 | | 5 | 23
Terry Sawchuk | | | | | | 3 | | 1 | 1 | | 4 | 20
Allan Stanley | | | | | | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 19
Bernie Parent | | | | | 1 | | 2 | 1 | | 1 | 4 | 18
JC Tremblay | | | 1 | 1 | | | | | | 1 | 6 | 16
Patrick Kane | | 1 | | | | | | 2 | | 1 | 5 | 16
Clint Benedict | 1 | | | | | | 1 | | | | 7 | 14
Frank Mahovlich | | | | 2 | | | | | | | 7 | 14
Howie Morenz | | | | 1 | | | | 1 | | 2 | 5 | 12
Bobby Clarke | | | | | 1 | | | 1 | 1 | | 6 | 11
Steve Yzerman | | | | | | | 1 | | 2 | | 6 | 8
Chris Chelios | | | | 1 | | | | | | | 8 | 7
Al MacInnis | | | | | 1 | | | | | | 8 | 6
Ted Lindsay | | | | | | | | 1 | | | 8 | 3
Cy Denneny | | | | | | | | | | | 9 | 0

Open Ballot

Player | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th | None | Total Billy Smith | 2 | | 1 | | 3 | 1 | 1 | | | 1 | 2 | 56
Duncan Keith | | 3 | 2 | | 1 | | | | 3 | | 2 | 55
Frank Foyston | | 2 | 1 | 2 | | 2 | 1 | | | | 3 | 54
Tim Horton | 2 | | 2 | 2 | | | | | 1 | | 4 | 52
Jacques Lemaire | 2 | | 2 | | | 1 | 2 | | | | 4 | 49
Frank McGee | 2 | 1 | | | 1 | | 1 | | | | 6 | 39
Dickie Moore | 1 | 2 | 1 | | | | | | | 1 | 6 | 37
Paul Coffey | 1 | | 1 | 1 | 1 | | | 1 | | 1 | 5 | 35
Terry Sawchuk | | | | | 1 | 4 | | 1 | 1 | | 4 | 31
Bernie Parent | | 1 | | | 1 | | 2 | 2 | | 1 | 4 | 30
Ray Bourque | | 1 | | 1 | | 1 | | | 1 | | 7 | 23
Patrick Kane | | 1 | | | 1 | | | 2 | | 2 | 5 | 23
Allan Stanley | | | | | | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 20
JC Tremblay | | | 1 | 1 | | | | | 1 | 1 | 7 | 18
Clint Benedict | 1 | | | | | | 1 | | | | 9 | 14
Frank Mahovlich | | | | 2 | | | | | | | 9 | 14
Steve Yzerman | | | | | | 1 | 1 | | 2 | | 7 | 13
Howie Morenz | | | | 1 | | | | 1 | | 2 | 7 | 12
Bobby Clarke | | | | | 1 | | | 1 | 1 | | 8 | 11
Chris Chelios | | | | 1 | | | | | | | 10 | 7
Al MacInnis | | | | | 1 | | | | | | 10 | 6
Ted Lindsay | | | | | | | | 1 | | | 10 | 3
Cy Denneny | | | | | | | | 1 | | | 10 | 3

 

[MXD]

Not quite how I had'em, but...

At least one of Foyston or McGee made it (I had Foyston missing the cut by two hairs, while I was slapping 1sts to McGee since V6), so it's not a purely NHL Playoffs top performer ranking. I was a NV on Smith but that might have been a pure oversight.

For fun : my highest non-ranked player was McGee somewhere between 11 and 13. I had a player in my Top-15 (...or Top-16) that never came up.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I wonder if the two voters who had Harvey #1 in the first round are the same who had Lemaire #1 in the finals round.

Glad Foyston made it.

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

Now that it's over, I'm kind of surprised no one from the 60's Leafs dynasty made it. If not Horton, Stanley, or Keon, I think Bower could have made the cut. From the error rate vs. expectation for O6 era goalies thread, for goalies who played the majority of both rounds with error rates better than average:

Season|Player|EvE
1953|J. Henry|83.2%
1953|McNeil|85.0%
1954| Sawchuk |75.6%
1954| Plante |79.2%
1955| Sawchuk |89.3%
1956| Plante |82.2%
1957| Plante |70.8%
1958|Simmons|71.9%
1958| Plante |73.4%
1959| Bower |92.5%
1959| Plante |95.7%
1960| Plante |54.0%
1960| Bower |94.2%
1961| Hall |68.8%
1961| Sawchuk |79.1%
1962| Hall |72.4%
1962| Bower |74.8%
1963| Bower |58.7%
1964| Bower |83.2%
1964| Sawchuk |92.2%
1965| Hall |75.1%
1965| Worsley |81.8%
1966| Worsley |72.5%
1966|Crozier|78.5%
1967| Sawchuk |63.7%
1967|Vachon|81.2%

(Color-coding idea originated from quoipourquoi here. The idea for EvE came from quoipourquoi too, in case anyone was wondering.)

If we're talking about best performances, Sawchuk and Bower overlap fairly reasonably. Sawchuk, however, put up more poor performances than Bower (notably in 1953 and 1958).

Ah well, it's kind of a moot point since Bower never came up.

 

[MXD]

(...)
If we're talking about best performances, Sawchuk and Bower overlap fairly reasonably. Sawchuk, however, put up more poor performances than Bower (notably in 1953 and 1958).

Ah well, it's kind of a moot point since Bower never came up.

Totally agree.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I wonder if the two voters who had Harvey #1 in the first round are the same who had Lemaire #1 in the finals round.

Glad Foyston made it.

Dickie Moore got a first place vote, so maybe not.

Still, the pattern was clear throughout. And unfortunate. More voters (more objective) were needed. I preferred the open vote results (surprise!)

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Now that it's over, I'm kind of surprised no one from the 60's Leafs dynasty made it. If not Horton, Stanley, or Keon, I think Bower could have made the cut. From the error rate vs. expectation for O6 era goalies thread, for goalies who played the majority of both rounds with error rates better than average:

Season|Player|EvE
1953|J. Henry|83.2%
1953|McNeil|85.0%
1954| Sawchuk |75.6%
1954| Plante |79.2%
1955| Sawchuk |89.3%
1956| Plante |82.2%
1957| Plante |70.8%
1958|Simmons|71.9%
1958| Plante |73.4%
1959| Bower |92.5%
1959| Plante |95.7%
1960| Plante |54.0%
1960| Bower |94.2%
1961| Hall |68.8%
1961| Sawchuk |79.1%
1962| Hall |72.4%
1962| Bower |74.8%
1963| Bower |58.7%
1964| Bower |83.2%
1964| Sawchuk |92.2%
1965| Hall |75.1%
1965| Worsley |81.8%
1966| Worsley |72.5%
1966|Crozier|78.5%
1967| Sawchuk |63.7%
1967|Vachon|81.2%

(Color-coding idea originated from quoipourquoi here. The idea for EvE came from quoipourquoi too, in case anyone was wondering.)

If we're talking about best performances, Sawchuk and Bower overlap fairly reasonably. Sawchuk, however, put up more poor performances than Bower (notably in 1953 and 1958).

Ah well, it's kind of a moot point since Bower never came up.

Horton made it on the open ballot. I dare say Keon would have made it if he came up. Sawchuk not making the list seems wrong to me.

 

[Michael Farkas]

In the abstract, Sawchuk seems pretty overrated. Irrespective of this project, he doesn't do much for me outside of a five-year window...after those first five years, did everyone get wise to his style or was it just leaving Detroit's dynamo era that cost him...? He comes back post-Lindsay I think, which is a major loss...

It's a tight list, what does he offer? Three "plus" playoff runs? That's pretty borderline on a list like this for me...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Terry Sawchuk

In the abstract, Sawchuk seems pretty overrated. Irrespective of this project, he doesn't do much for me outside of a five-year window...after those first five years, did everyone get wise to his style or was it just leaving Detroit's dynamo era that cost him...? He comes back post-Lindsay I think, which is a major loss...

It's a tight list, what does he offer? Three "plus" playoff runs? That's pretty borderline on a list like this for me...

Terry Sawchuk had many off ice issues.

 

[MXD]

Dickie Moore got a first place vote, so maybe not.

Still, the pattern was clear throughout. And unfortunate. More voters (more objective) were needed. I preferred the open vote results (surprise!)

I would've loved to make it 2, actually.

 

[Epsilon]

In the abstract, Sawchuk seems pretty overrated. Irrespective of this project, he doesn't do much for me outside of a five-year window...after those first five years, did everyone get wise to his style or was it just leaving Detroit's dynamo era that cost him...? He comes back post-Lindsay I think, which is a major loss...

It's a tight list, what does he offer? Three "plus" playoff runs? That's pretty borderline on a list like this for me...

Sawchuk is one of those guys who seems really impressive when you first start learning about hockey history through general interest books and such, but when you get to the point that posters on this forum are at (the ability to contextualize achievements, evaluate more advanced data sets, etc.) his flaws become more and more apparent.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I would've loved to make it 2, actually.

Odd, Moore had a 1st, two 2nd, a 3rd. Yet, 4 voters didn't list him (6 on the open ballot)

Lemaire finishes 1st but doesn't make the top 4 on open ballot.

Everyone had at least 2 voters that didn't list them.

Paul Coffey & Clint Benedict with first place votes?

 

[MXD]

Odd, Moore had a 1st, two 2nd, a 3rd. Yet, 4 voters didn't list him (6 on the open ballot)

Lemaire finishes 1st but doesn't make the top 4 on open ballot.

Everyone had at least 2 voters that didn't list them.

Paul Coffey & Clint Benedict with first place votes?

Moore's pattern is quite similar to Frank McGee actually, so why that issue wasnt raised with McGee too?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Sawchuk is one of those guys who seems really impressive when you first start learning about hockey history through general interest books and such, but when you get to the point that posters on this forum are at (the ability to contextualize achievements, evaluate more advanced data sets, etc.) his flaws become more and more apparent.

This is likely the case. I think historically, it was easier to overlook his post-1955 play at the turn of the century because he did still hold the wins and shutout records, and he did win one more Cup with Toronto 15 years removed from a peak where he very well may have been playing better than any goaltender to come before or after. I certainly expected him to make my top-40 in Round 2, but in the end, I just thought there were 5 better players in Vote 8.

 

[MXD]

Sawchuk is one of those guys who seems really impressive when you first start learning about hockey history through general interest books and such, but when you get to the point that posters on this forum are at (the ability to contextualize achievements, evaluate more advanced data sets, etc.) his flaws become more and more apparent.

This is likely the case. I think historically, it was easier to overlook his post-1955 play at the turn of the century because he did still hold the wins and shutout records, and he did win one more Cup with Toronto 15 years removed from a peak where he very well may have been playing better than any goaltender to come before or after. I certainly expected him to make my top-40 in Round 2, but in the end, I just thought there were 5 better players in Vote 8.

I mean... I did rank Sawchuk at the tail end of my ballot. But there's at least 4 netminders I would've ranked ahead of him (+ Smith, that I inexplicably forgot), along with Parent that I ranked as well (it was a bit of a wash).

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Moore's pattern is quite similar to Frank McGee actually, so why that issue wasnt raised with McGee too?

Considering McGee played about a thousand years ago, its not really that odd, is it? Some voters wanted a pre-NHL guy on the list.

 

[billcook]

I had Harvey 3rd in first round, didn't rank Lemaire in last round.

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

Considering McGee played about a thousand years ago, its not really that odd, is it? Some voters wanted a pre-NHL guy on the list.

His post-season goal-scoring domination in his era was probably along the lines of Bobby Hull (if we're breaking tradition and assuming McGee's era was weaker than more modern eras, otherwise...). From 1903 to 1906, his goal-scoring finishes were 3, 1, 1, and 1. He led in goals per game every Challenge he played in. And yes, he beat up on Dawson with 14 goals in one game that time, but he still led his own teammates by quite a margin.

1903:

Player|Team|GP|G|G/GP
Jack Marshall|Montreal|4|7|1.75
Billy Gilmour|Ottawa|4|5|1.25
Frank McGee|Ottawa|2|4|2.00
Billy McGimsie|Rat Portage|2|3|1.50
Tommy Phillips|Montreal|4|3|0.75

1904:

Player|Team|GP|G|G/GP
Frank McGee|Ottawa|8|21|2.63
Alf Smith|Ottawa|7|13|1.86
Tommy Phillips|Toronto|2|1|0.50|Note: also had 2 assists, a rarity
Jack Marshall|Montreal|1|1|1.00
Harvey Pulford|7|1|0.14

1905:

Player|Team|GP|G|G/GP
Frank McGee|Ottawa|4|18|4.50
Alf Smith|Ottawa|5|11|2.20
Tommy Phillips|Rat Portage|3|8|2.67
Silas Griffis|Rat Portage|3|3|1.00
Tom Hooper|Rat Portage|3|2|0.67

1906:

Player|Team|GP|G|G/GP
Frank McGee|Ottawa|4|16|4.00
Harold Smith|Senators|5|15|3.00
Alf Smith|Ottawa|4|7|1.75
Marty Walsh|Queen's|2|4|2.00
Frank Glass|Montreal|2|3|1.50
George Richardson|Queen's|2|3|1.50

1907:

Player|Team|GP|G|G/GP
Ernie Russell|Montreal|5|12|2.40
Lester Patrick|Montreal|6|10|1.67
Tommy Phillips|Kenora|4|9|2.25
Frank Glass|Montreal|6|8|1.33
Ernie Johnson|Montreal|6|5|0.83

... I probably should have done this before voting started.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

His post-season goal-scoring domination in his era was probably along the lines of Bobby Hull (if we're breaking tradition and assuming McGee's era was weaker than more modern eras, otherwise...). From 1903 to 1906, his goal-scoring finishes were 3, 1, 1, and 1. He led in goals per game every Challenge he played in. And yes, he beat up on Dawson with 14 goals in one game that time, but he still led his own teammates by quite a margin.

1903:

Player|Team|GP|G|G/GP
Jack Marshall|Montreal|4|7|1.75
Billy Gilmour|Ottawa|4|5|1.25
Frank McGee|Ottawa|2|4|2.00
Billy McGimsie|Rat Portage|2|3|1.50
Tommy Phillips|Montreal|4|3|0.75

1904:

Player|Team|GP|G|G/GP
Frank McGee|Ottawa|8|21|2.63
Alf Smith|Ottawa|7|13|1.86
Tommy Phillips|Toronto|2|1|0.50|Note: also had 2 assists, a rarity
Jack Marshall|Montreal|1|1|1.00
Harvey Pulford|7|1|0.14

1905:

Player|Team|GP|G|G/GP
Frank McGee|Ottawa|4|18|4.50
Alf Smith|Ottawa|5|11|2.20
Tommy Phillips|Rat Portage|3|8|2.67
Silas Griffis|Rat Portage|3|3|1.00
Tom Hooper|Rat Portage|3|2|0.67

1906:

Player|Team|GP|G|G/GP
Frank McGee|Ottawa|4|16|4.00
Harold Smith|Senators|5|15|3.00
Alf Smith|Ottawa|4|7|1.75
Marty Walsh|Queen's|2|4|2.00
Frank Glass|Montreal|2|3|1.50
George Richardson|Queen's|2|3|1.50

1907:

Player|Team|GP|G|G/GP
Ernie Russell|Montreal|5|12|2.40
Lester Patrick|Montreal|6|10|1.67
Tommy Phillips|Kenora|4|9|2.25
Frank Glass|Montreal|6|8|1.33
Ernie Johnson|Montreal|6|5|0.83

... I probably should have done this before voting started.

I voted him 7th this round. Didn't mean to imply there was no merit at all for his case. (though reading it again it does appear that way)