Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (The Sequel)

[ted2019]

People's thoughts on Frank Frederickson? Having a hard time trying to place him. His NHL career was kinda yuck, but his PCHA was kinda yeah baby.

 

[Canadiens1958]

WHC 1987
Dominik Hašek: 9 games / 19 goals allowed / 228 saves / 2.19 GAA / 0.9231
Evgeny Belosheikin: 10 games / 15 goals allowed / 179 saves / 1.50 GAA / 0.9227

(Source 1, Source 2)

Pre-NHL Hasek had, on average, better SV% than other goalies with the exception of the Soviet ones. It was widely recognized that Soviet teams in 80s were so much ahead of the rest that their goalies were posting the best tournament´ SV%. Yet, except for Tretiak (and Myshkin in CC 1984, Irbe in 1990), Soviet goalies did not play any role in the All-star voting. They were not even a 2nd all-star teamers despite having highest SV% going on for them.



I´ve already said there is no excuse for weak performance. However, 1991 - time where Czechoslovakia was in a political turmoil, country was splitting into two parts, transforming into democratic society. Situation in hockey - players were flying away in masses, not necesarilly to the NHL but also to Finland, Germany, Sweden etc. Pre-1990 hockey developing programs were interrupted or stopped. Team itself was one of the weakest CSSR team of all-time and it was well known at the time. A lot of strong talents (future longtime NHLers) + older players from previous weak late 80s generation that were supposed to carry the team, yet some of them were basically career czech extraleaguers. Anyway, my point was that CSSR team as a whole did not focuse or prepare very much on this "best-on-best" tournament. I don´t know how Hasek personally prepared for the tournament, or how much he seriously he viewed the tournament, but his team did not. Hence, Hasek´s pre-1990 performances in other championships are more illustrating of his level of play.



OK, I think we´re in agreement then. The way I see it, one extreme is to reject everything Hasek did before 1990, the other extreme is to call him best goalie in the world year in year out before he arrived to Chicago. So that leaves us with plenty of room to view and interpret Hasek´s pre-NHL accomplishments. As far as my view on it is, I just can´t see Hasek as not at least one of the top 10 best goalies in the world between 1986-1990. He was considered right there with green unit members as one of the top players in Europe - at least in a couple of seasons. That´s something to keep in mind.

I´ll come back tomorrow with summary of Hasek pre-NHL career - listing his domestic and international SV% and various award votings each season.

Do not accept such extreme positions.

WHC,Olympic, Canada Cup schedules and results are readily available. Czechoslovakian domestic league schedules and results are spotty.

To fully appreciate Hasek the raw data and supporting elements have to be examined.

 

[Sentinel]

Goddamnit, who cares about Hasek's 1991 Canada Cup? You can find holes in every legend's resume, from Lemieux to Jagr, from Hull to Lafleur! Dom's holes are not bigger than any of these.

 

[Dingo]

wilt and russell. statistical and physical unicorn who is kinda flaky vs the boldest cockiest leaderiest puke before games competitive only cares about winning dude there is.

Except Hasek’s desire to win and improve are the stuff of legend.
Keeping as many Czechs as would stay, as late as they would stay, taking breakaways on him pre-tourney, in case a game should go to shootout, going after a goon (cant remember) for scoring on him in practice, staying late with anyone who would take shots on him practice after practice, punishing himself by sleeping on his blocker on the floor of the changeroom agter having a bad game, playing professionally from 15-47 years old.... the guy wanted to win. Hell, most wont, but i even credit him for not causing a ruckus and letting Osgood take over in 08 when it was clear that he no longer had enough in him. You can view that one as a negative in terms of wanting to win, but i dont. Roy wouldve had a meltdown that may have affected the team, because, as much of a winner as he was, it was about him winning far before any of his teams.

i know you guys are big on details, so, if i get called out on this i will have to respond with sources, but i spent a day reading abou how Rucinsky and Jagr and the rest felt about their chances in 98, and the gist was “we arent as good as a number of teams, but we have Dom and we know we can beat anyone.”

 

[MXD]

Nighbor, Seibert, Clapper, Boucher, Geoffrion, Hall, Makarov...

If any of those ain't in your top-100 then the list ought to be thrown out!

... uh? I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but Clapper sticks out like a sore thumb in this group.

 

[MXD]

Except Hasek’s desire to win and improve are the stuff of legend.
Keeping as many Czechs as would stay, as late as they would stay, taking breakaways on him pre-tourney, in case a game should go to shootout, going after a goon (cant remember) for scoring on him in practice, staying late with anyone who would take shots on him practice after practice, punishing himself by sleeping on his blocker on the floor of the changeroom agter having a bad game, playing professionally from 15-47 years old.... the guy wanted to win. Hell, most wont, but i even credit him for not causing a ruckus and letting Osgood take over in 08 when it was clear that he no longer had enough in him. You can view that one as a negative in terms of wanting to win, but i dont. Roy wouldve had a meltdown that may have affected the team, because, as much of a winner as he was, it was about him winning far before any of his teams.

i know you guys are big on details, so, if i get called out on this i will have to respond with sources, but i spent a day reading abou how Rucinsky and Jagr and the rest felt about their chances in 98, and the gist was “we arent as good as a number of teams, but we have Dom and we know we can beat anyone.”

...And now we have posts that amounts to pure speculation about what players from the past might have done.

 

[Canadiens1958]

...And now we have posts that amounts to pure speculation about what players from the past might have done.

Would like to know who the Czech goon was?

 

[MXD]

Would like to know who the Czech goon was?

Leo?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Leo?

No Leo.

Josef Beránek
Jan Čaloun
Roman Čechmánek
Jiří Dopita
Roman Hamrlík
Dominik Hašek
Milan Hejduk
Milan Hnilička
Jaromír Jágr
František Kučera
Robert Lang
David Moravec
Pavel Patera
Libor Procházka
Martin Procházka
Robert Reichel
Martin Ručínský
Vladimír Růžička-C
Jiří Šlégr
Richard Šmehlík
Jaroslav Špaček
Martin Straka
Petr Svoboda

 

[quoipourquoi]

the guy wanted to win. Hell, most wont, but i even credit him for not causing a ruckus and letting Osgood take over in 08 when it was clear that he no longer had enough in him. You can view that one as a negative in terms of wanting to win, but i dont.

To me, I can understand it - the willingness to let someone else step in because you believe in the greater good (a lesson learned in D2: The Mighty Ducks). In the case of 2008, there’s some grace involved because everyone knows Osgood should have the spot and will perform well. But in 1997 and 2006 when there’s not that same faith in a Chris Osgood as an equal replacement - when teammates are begging you to play because you’re the XX best hockey player of all-time and they believe they can win and the doctors have cleared you and you choose not to play because you believe someone else is better for the spot than you?

I’m not about that. I want the guy who wants the ball at the end of the game (mixed sports metaphor, but you get me). You don’t have to go the full Ed Belfour, but you don’t have to drop out from nerves or playable injuries either. Not just picking on Hasek; you can put Sawchuk and Durnan in here too.

Leaders correct course or go down with the ship; they don’t pass off duties from the lifeboat while shouting “You got this! I’m going to sleep on a blocker now for penance!” Peter Forsberg is one of the more criticized players because of a pattern of injuries (and justifiably so), but no one can say he wouldn’t be the pirate with two wooden legs trying to climb up the side of a sinking boat while his parrot tries to pull him away. You can be made mostly of glass and still have a lot of brass in the right spots.

I’m not going to disrespect Steve Shields or Ray Emery by saying that Dominik Hasek ruined a team’s season twice after originally helping them to a great position for success (while escaping with great individual numbers) - making the 1997 Hart Trophy in particular look... icky - but I don’t think the goaltending position is so depleted that the best it has to offer includes such a glaring bug as multiple complete system shutdowns. With an injury history like that (5 of 9 seasons while in Buffalo), you can almost cross out your chances at a major dynasty if you don’t have a great backup ready like the 2008 Detroit Red Wings did.

I expect him to do really well here as people who are high on him tend to be really high on him relative to all positions, but for those wondering why it might be a lot more split than main board polls in terms of him being the 5th or 25th best player, and potentially more reflective of media lists in which he often falls in the middle of the big-7, hopefully this has been a good primer for Round 2 where we can mostly focus on trying to compare him not to other goaltenders but to other skaters.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Roy's appendectomy in the playoffs comes to mind.

 

[quoipourquoi]

...And now we have posts that amounts to pure speculation about what players from the past might have done.

More than that, Patrick Roy played in the two-goalie system for years, and was replaced like the Hasek/Osgood playoff example after single losses in both the 1987 and 1988 playoffs (in 1987, after sweeping Boston; in 1988, after jumping up 3-0 on Hartford).

To my understanding, he neither had a meltdown nor orchestrated a mutiny despite disagreeing with the decision, and returned in 1988-89 to have his best season, slowly increasing the gap between his allotted starts and his backups under Pat Burns.

So it’s kind of a battle-tested theory. Obviously he didn’t stick around to the point that he was ever replaceable again, but by most accounts, his attitude completely shifted after playing with Ray Bourque in 2000-01. Ex-teammates spoke highly of him in the immediate aftermath of the 1995 trade too.

 

[DN28]

All right, so here´s a merely informative summary of Hasek´s pre-NHL career without any conclusions:

1981-1982

League:

Save percentage of ‘top 15 goalies’ of the season:
1. Králík (Jihlava): 42 games / 81 goals allowed / 1153 saves / 1.93 GAA / 0.9344
2. Hašek (Pardubice): 11 games / 34 goals allowed / 437 saves / 3.09 GAA / 0.9278
3. Šindel (Vítkovice): 39 games / 129 goals allowed / 1640 saves / 3.37 GAA / 0.9271
4. Lang (Brno): 41 games / 155 goals allowed / 1955 saves / 3.85 GAA / 0.9265
5. Hamal (Sparta): 42 games / 142 goals allowed / 1661 saves / 3.41 GAA / 0. 9212
6. Kapoun (Litvínov): 40 games / 148 goals allowed / 1601 saves / 3.77 GAA / 0.9154
7. Svoboda (Plzeň): 41 games / 158 goals allowed / 1628 saves / 3.92 GAA / 0.9115
8. Radvanovský (Pardubice): 25 games / 97 goals allowed / 971 saves / 3.88 GAA / 0.9092
9. Podešva (Gottwaldov): 39 games / 120 goals allowed / 1114 saves / 3.10 GAA / 0.9028
10. Krása (Kladno): 25 games / 72 goals allowed / 628 saves / 2.96 GAA / 0.8971
11. Kolísek (Kladno): 20 games / 62 goals allowed / 533 saves / 3.16 GAA / 0.8958
12. Hrabák (Trenčín): 38 games / 129 goals allowed / 1076 saves / 3.40 GAA / 0.8929
13. Gula (Č. Budějovice): 42 games / 137 goals allowed / 1065 saves / 3.26 GAA / 0.8860
14. Švárny (Košice): 13 games / 59 goals allowed / 411 saves / 4.66 GAA / 0.8745
15. Orenič (Košice): 17 games / 76 goals allowed / 525 saves / 4.57 GAA / 0.8735

International:
did not play

Golden Stick voting:
no votes

Izvestia Trophy voting:
no votes

1982-83

League:

Save percentage of ‘top 12 goalies’ of the season:
1. Králík (Jihlava): 43 games / 90 goals allowed / 1085 saves / 2.25 GAA / 0.9234
2. Hašek (Pardubice): 42 games / 105 goals allowed / 1158 saves / 2.67 GAA / 0.9169
3. Lang (Brno): 44 games / 185 goals allowed / 1870 saves / 4.32 GAA / 0.9100
4. Šindel (Vítkovice): 39 games / 124 goals allowed / 1229 saves / 3.86 GAA / 0.9084
5. Svoboda (Plzeň): 43 games / 158 goals allowed / 1440 saves / 3.97 GAA / 0.9011
6. Gula (Č. Budějovice): 41 games / 132 goals allowed / 1173 saves / 3.40 GAA / 0.8989
7. Beňo (Slovan): 25 games / 85 goals allowed / 746 saves / 3.86 GAA / 0.8977
8. Hamal (Sparta): 44 games / 155 goals allowed / 1278 saves / 3.54 GAA / 0.8918
9. Kapoun (Litvínov): 37 games / 130 goals allowed / 1071 saves / 3.81 GAA / 0.8918
10. Ševela (Slovan): 24 games / 85 goals allowed / 686 saves / 4.09 GAA / 0.8898
11. Podešva (Gottwaldov): 35 games / 107 goals allowed / 816 saves / 3.72 GAA / 0.8841
12. Krása (Kladno): 27 games / 97 goals allowed / 520 saves / 4.20 GAA / 0.8428

International
WHC 1983, statistics (Source 1, Source 2):
1. Vladislav Tretiak (USSR): 7 games / 0.57 GAA / 0.9725
2. Hannu Kamppuri (FIN): 4 games / 3.75 GAA / 0.9368
3. Jiri Kralik (CSSR): 8 games / 2.00 GAA / 0.9328
4. Erich Weishaupt (W. GER): 5 games / 2.60 GAA / 0.9262
5. Vladimir Myshkin (USSR): 3 games / 2.00 GAA / 0.9179
6. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 2 games / 2.50 GAA / 0.9138
7. Rick Wamsley (CAN): 10 games / 3.00 GAA / 0.9094
8. Pelle Lindbergh (SWE): 9 games / 3.00 GAA / 0.9022
9. Kari Takko (FIN): 6 games / 4.19 GAA / 0.8976
10. Karl Friesen (W. GER): 5 games / 4.20 GAA / 0.8907
11. Jim Corsi (ITA): 10 games / 5.28 GAA / 0.8760
12. Rene Bielke (E. GER): 10 games / 3.75 GAA / 0.8632
13. Göte Wälitalo (SWE): 1 game / 5.00 GAA / 0.8276
14. Nick Sanza (ITA): 1 game / 11.20 GAA / 0.7858
15. Ingolf Spantig (E. GER): 1 game / 10.23 GAA / 0.6924

WHC 1983, awards:
IIHF Directoriate´s Best Goaltender: Vladislav Tretiak
1st All-Star Team: Vladislav Tretiak
2nd All-Star Team: Jiri Kralik

Golden Stick voting:
10th (2nd best goalie)

Izvestia Trophy voting:
no votes

1983-84

League:

Save percentage of ‘top 10 goalies’ of the season:
1. Hašek (Pardubice): 2304 min. / 108 goals allowed / 1057 saves / 2.81 GAA / 0.9073
2. Kohout (Sparta): 2054 min. / 102 goals allowed / 998 saves / 2.98 GAA / 0.9073
3. Lang (Brno): 1708 min. / 78 goals allowed / 757 saves / 2.74 GAA / 0.9066
4. Fürbacher (Trenčín): 2070 min. / 106 goals allowed / 945 saves / 3.07 GAA / 0.8991
5. Šindel (Jihlava): 2026 min. / 85 goals allowed / 757 saves / 2.52 GAA / 0.8990
6. Svoboda (Plzeň): 2442 min. / 153 goals allowed / 1132 saves / 3.76 GAA / 0.8809
7. Gula (Č. Budějovice): 1703 min. / 101 goals allowed / 731 saves / 3.56 GAA / 0.8786
8. Králík (Gottwaldov): 1300 min. / 74 goals allowed / 528 saves / 3.41 GAA / 0.8771
9. Kapoun (Litvínov): 1650 min. / 96 goals allowed / 666 saves / 3.49 GAA / 0.8740
10. Švárny (Košice): 1954 min. / 135 goals allowed / 920 saves / 4.14 GAA / 0.8720

International
OG 1984:
did not play

Golden Stick voting:
9th (2nd best goalie)

Izvestia Trophy voting:

1983/84
1) Vyacheslav Fetisov 316 (96-10-8)
2) Vladislav Tretyak 182 (45-21-5)
3) Dominik Hašek 163 (28-36-7)
4) Sergey Makarov 124 (32-12-4)
5) Vladimir Krutov 86 (23-2-13)
6) Jaromír Šindel 81 (18-11-5)
7) Peter Gradin 66 (19-4-1)
8) Aleksandr Kozhevnikov 52 (8-11-6)
9) Erich Kühnhackl 51 (14-4-1)
10) Nikolay Drozdetsky 38 (9-1-9)
11) Milan Chalupa 36 (11-0-3)
12) Igor Liba 34 (8-5-0)
13) Petri Skriko 28 (0-13-2)
14) Thomas Rundqvist 24 (6-3-0)
15) Raimo Summanen 16 (0-7-2)

1984-85

League:

Save percentage of ‘top 10 goalies’ of the season:
1. Králík (Gottwaldov): 2427 min. / 89 goals allowed / 906 saves / 2.20 GAA / 0.9106
2. Cagaš (Trenčín): 1638 min. / 84 goals allowed / 809 saves / 3.08 GAA / 0.9059
3. Hašek (Pardubice): 2419 min. / 131 goals allowed / 1170 saves / 3.25 GAA / 0.8993
4. Beňo (Slovan): 1443 min. / 97 goals allowed / 850 saves / 4.03 GAA / 0.8976
5. Fürbacher (Plzeň): 1312 min. / 83 goals allowed / 689 saves / 3.53 GAA / 0.8925
6. Šindel (Jihlava): 2370 min. / 104 goals allowed / 855 saves / 2.63 GAA / 0.8916
7. Lang (Brno): 2412 min. / 137 goals allowed / 1119 saves / 3.41 GAA / 0.8909
8. Švárny (Košice): 2261 min. / 115 goals allowed / 894 saves / 3.05 GAA / 0.8860
9. Gula (Č. Budějovice): 1855 min. / 100 goals allowed / 742 saves / 3.23 GAA / 0.8812
10. Kohout (Sparta): 2429 min. / 132 goals allowed / 941 saves / 3.26 GAA / 0.8770

International
CC 1984 (Source):
1. Vladimir Myshkin (USSR): 4 games / 1.43 GAA / 0.940
2. Peter Lindmark (SWE): 7 games / 2.77 GAA / 0.889
3. Tom Barrasso (USA): 5 games / 3.10 GAA / 0.888
4. Grant Fuhr (CAN): 2 games / 3.00 GAA / 0.878
5. Pete Peeters (CAN): 4 games / 3.33 GAA / 0.874
6. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 4 games / 3.45 GAA / 0.867
7. Karl Friesen (W. GER): 4 games / 5.25 GAA / 0.858
8. Alexander Tyzhnykh (USSR): 2 games / 2.00 GAA / 0.852
9. Reggie Lemelin (CAN): 3 games / 3.04 GAA / 0.848
10. Glenn Resch (USA): 2 games / 5.00 GAA / 0.816
11. Göte Wälitalo (SWE): 2 games / 5.37 GAA / 0.807
12. Bernard Engelbrecht (W. GER): 1 game / 8.00 GAA / 0.800
13. Jaromir Sindel (CSSR): 3 games / 5.24 GAA / 0.793

CC 1984, awards:
All-Star Team: Vladimir Myshkin

WHC 1985:
did not play

Golden Stick voting:
17th (2nd best goalie)

Izvestia Trophy voting:
no votes

1985-86

League:

Save percentage of ‘top 12 goalies’ of the season, reg. season and playoffs combined:
1. Bříza (Jihlava): 2023 min. / 73 goals allowed / 801 saves / 2.17 GAA / 0.9165
2. Hašek (Pardubice): 2689 min. / 138 goals allowed / 1272 saves / 3.08 GAA / 0.9021
3. Švárny (Košice): 2618 min. / 128 goals allowed / 1150 saves / 2.93 GAA / 0.8998
4. Šindel (Sparta): 2170 min. / 110 goals allowed / 975 saves / 3.04 GAA / 0.8986
5. Lang (Brno): 2245 min. / 129 goals allowed / 1043 saves / 3.45 GAA / 0.8899
6. Svoboda (Gottwaldov): 2025 min. / 106 goals allowed / 842 saves / 3.14 GAA / 0.8882
7. Beňo (Slovan): 2410 min. / 146 goals allowed / 1159 saves / 3.64 GAA / 0.8881
8. Cagaš (Trenčín): 1666 min. / 99 goals allowed / 784 saves / 3.57 GAA / 0.8879
9. Gula (Č. Budějovice): 2448 min. / 141 goals allowed / 1086 saves / 3.46 GAA / 0.8851
10. Fürbacher (Plzeň): 1967 min. / 127 goals allowed / 904 saves / 3.87 GAA / 0.8768
11. Hrabák (Litvínov): 1769 min. / 107 goals allowed / 735 saves / 3.63 GAA / 0.8729
12. Krása (Kladno): 2033 min. / 138 goals allowed / 837 saves / 4.07 GAA / 0.8585

International
WHC 1986, statistics (Source 1, Source 2):
1. Sergei Mylnikov (USSR): 3 games / 1.33 GAA / 0.9166
2. Peter Aslin (SWE): 1 game / 3.00 GAA / 0.9166
3. Evgeny Belosheikin (USSR): 7 games / 1.57 GAA / 0.9153
4. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 9 games / 2.12 GAA / 0.9010
5. Chris Terreri (USA): 5 games / 4.20 GAA / 0.8947
6. Jacques Cloutier (CAN): 5 games / 3.02 GAA / 0.8928
7. Jaromir Sindel (CSSR): 1 game / 2.00 GAA / 0.8888
8. Tom Barrasso (USA): 5 games / 4.15 GAA / 0.8867
9. Hannu Kamppuri (FIN): 5 games / 3.21 GAA / 0.8796
10. Peter Lindmark (SWE): 7 games / 2.96 GAA / 0.8780
11. Jukka Tammi (FIN): 5 games / 3.61 GAA / 0.8732
12. Helmut de Raaf (W. GER): 7 games / 4.58 GAA / 0.8663
13. Ake Lilljebjörn (SWE): 3 games / 3.16 GAA / 0.8571
14. Franciszek Kukla (POL): 9 games / 6.14 GAA / 0.8418
15. Kelly Hrudey (CAN): 5 games / 4.41 GAA / 0.8181
16. Mike Richter (USA): 1 game / 5.66 GAA / 0.8076
17. Andrzej Hanisz (POL): 6 games / 6.70 GAA / 0.8017
18. Erich Weishaupt (W. GER): 4 games / 6.53 GAA / 0.8000

WHC 1986, awards:
IIHF Directoriate´s Best Goaltender: Peter Lindmark
1st All-Star Team: Peter Lindmark (34 votes)
2nd All-Star Team: Chris Terreri

Golden Stick voting:
4th (1st best goalie)

Izvestia Trophy voting:
At least outside Top 9.

1986-87

League:

Save percentage of ‘top 10 goalies’ of the season, reg. season and playoffs combined:
1. Hašek (Pardubice): 2515 min. / 103 goals allowed / 1147 saves / 2.46 GAA / 0.9176
2. Šindel (Sparta): 2251 min. / 93 goals allowed / 975 saves / 2.48 GAA / 0.9129
3. Bříza (Jihlava): 2275 min. / 98 goals allowed / 908 saves / 2.58 GAA / 0.9026
4. Gula (Č. Budějovice): 2498 min. / 122 goals allowed / 1045 saves / 2.93 GAA / 0.8955
5. Švárny (Košice): 1734 min. / 89 goals allowed / 753 saves / 3.08 GAA / 0.8943
6. Kněžický (Gottwaldov): 1276 min. / 64 goals allowed / 519 saves / 3.01 GAA / 0.8902
7. Lang (Brno): 2000 min. / 113 goals allowed / 901 saves / 3.39 GAA / 0.8886
8. Beňo (Slovan): 2235 min. / 146 goals allowed / 1079 saves / 3.92 GAA / 0.8808
9. Cagaš (Trenčín): 1551 min. / 96 goals allowed / 705 saves / 3.71 GAA / 0.8801
10. Hrabák (Litvínov): 2069 min. / 130 goals allowed / 918 saves / 3.77 GAA / 0.8760

Note: Tesla Pardubice (Hasek´s team) won the League title this season.

International
WHC 1987, statistics (Source 1, Source 2):
1. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 9 games / 2.19 GAA / 0.9231
2. Evgeny Belosheikin (USSR): 10 games / 1.50 GAA / 0.9227
3. Peter Lindmark (SWE): 7 games / 2.11 GAA / 0.9014
4. Ake Lilljebjörn (SWE): 4 games / 2.10 GAA / 0.9014
5. Sean Burke (CAN): 5 games / 2.40 GAA / 0.8947
6. Jarmo Myllis (FIN): 8 games / 3.49 GAA / 0.8945
7. Jaromir Sindel (CSSR): 2 games / 3.75 GAA / 0.8913
8. Mike Richter (USA): 2 games / 6.00 GAA / 0.8841
9. Bob Froese (CAN): 5 games / 3.60 GAA / 0.8723
10. Helmut de Raaf (W. GER): 5 games / 3.60 GAA / 0.8696
11. Karl Friesen (W. GER): 5 games / 3.80 GAA / 0.8643
12. John Vanbiesbrouck (USA): 7 games / 4.01 GAA / 0.8495
13. Hannu Kamppuri (FIN): 3 games / 3.11 GAA / 0.8409
14. Richard Bucher (SWI): 5 games / 7.43 GAA / 0.8194
15. Olivier Anken (SWI): 7 games / 6.00 GAA / 0.8142
16. Chris Terreri (USA): 2 games / 7.20 GAA / 0.7273
17. Renato Tosio (SWI): 3 games / 13.47 GAA / 0.6944

WHC 1987, awards:
IIHF Directoriate´s Best Goaltender: Dominik Hasek
1st All-Star Team: Dominik Hasek (141 votes)
2nd All-Star Team: Peter Lindmark (135 votes)

Golden Stick voting:
1st

Izvestia Trophy voting:

1986/87

1) Vladimir Krutov 13 (3-1-2)
2) Dušan Pašek 10 (0-5-0)
3) Dominik Hašek 6 (2-0-0)
4) Sergey Makarov 4 (1-0-1)
5) Evgeny Belosheykin 3 (1-0-0)
Vyacheslav Fetisov 3 (1-0-0)
7) Petr Rosol 2 (0-1-0)
Udo Kiessling 2 (0-1-0)
9) Tommy Albelin 1 (0-0-1)
Anders Carlsson 1 (0-0-1)
Anders Eldebrink 1 (0-0-1)
Jaroslav Benák 1 (0-0-1)
Jiří Hrdina 1 (0-0-1)

1987-88

League:

Save percentage of ‘top 12 goalies’ of the season, reg. season and playoffs combined:
1. Hašek (Pardubice): 1862 min. / 93 goals allowed / 959 saves / 3.00 GAA / 0.9116
2. Bříza (Č. Budějovice): 2265 min. / 98 goals allowed / 1007 saves / 2.60 GAA / 0.9113
3. Švárny (Košice): 2360 min. / 116 goals allowed / 986 saves / 2.95 GAA / 0.8947
4. Svoboda (Jihlava): 2056 min. / 107 goals allowed / 907 saves / 3.12 GAA / 0.8945
5. Šindel (Sparta): 2486 min. / 123 goals allowed / 1032 saves / 2.97 GAA / 0.8935
6. Lang (Brno): 2204 min. / 130 goals allowed / 1029 saves / 3.54 GAA / 0.8878
7. Rehák (Slovan): 1551 min. / 97 goals allowed / 688 saves / 3.75 GAA / 0.8764
8. Hartmann (Trenčín): 1448 min. / 88 goals allowed / 616 saves / 3.65 GAA / 0.8750
9. Svačina (Gottwaldov): 2202 min. / 128 goals allowed / 834 saves / 3.49 GAA / 0.8669
10. Dudáček (Kladno): 1751 min. / 124 goals allowed / 796 saves / 4.25 GAA / 0.8652
11. Lukeš (Litvínov): 1898 min. / 142 goals allowed / 891 saves / 4.49 GAA / 0.8625
12. Fürbacher (Plzeň): 1837 min. / 119 goals allowed / 687 saves / 3.89 GAA / 0.8524

International
CC 1987 (Source):
1. John Vanbiesbrouck (USA): 4 games / 2.25 GAA / 0.922
2. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 6 games / 3.33 GAA / 0.894
3. Sergei Mylnikov (USSR): 6 games / 2.96 GAA / 0.894
4. Grant Fuhr (CAN): 9 games / 3.34 GAA / 0.893
5. Peter Lindmark (SWE): 6 games / 3.00 GAA / 0.882
6. Evgeny Belosheikin (USSR): 3 games / 4.00 GAA / 0.880
7. Kari Takko (FIN): 5 games / 4.71 GAA / 0.877
8. Jarmo Myllis (FIN): 1 game / 3.00 GAA / 0.875
9. Tom Barrasso (USA): 1 game / 5.00 GAA / 0.815

CC 1987, awards:
All-Star Team: Grant Fuhr

OG 1988, statistics (Source 1, Source 2):
1. Jukka Tammi (FIN): 2 games / 1.51 GAA / 0.936
2. Jarmo Myllis (FIN): 6 games / 1.83 GAA / 0.928
3. Gabriel Samolej (POL): 5 games / 2.01 GAA / 0.924
4. Jaromir Sindel (CSSR): 5 games / 2.07 GAA / 0.918
5. Sergei Mylnikov (USSR): 8 games / 1.63 GAA / 0.913
6. Richard Bucher (SWI): 3 games / 3.43 GAA / 0.907
7. Karl Friesen (W. GER): 6 games / 3.11 GAA / 0.906
8. Andrzej Hanisz (POL): 2 games / 3.75 GAA / 0.902
9. Andy Moog (CAN): 4 games / 2.25 GAA / 0.900
10. Olivier Anken (SWI): 4 games / 2.73 GAA / 0.897
11. Sean Burke (CAN): 4 games / 3.02 GAA / 0.893
12. Helmut de Raaf (W. GER): 1 game / 3.00 GAA / 0.885
13. Peter Lindmark (SWE): 7 games / 2.40 GAA / 0.869
14. Peter Aslin (SWE): 2 games / 3.75 GAA / 0.857
15. Brian Stankiewicz (AUS): 5 games / 4.60 GAA / 0.855
16. Mike Richter (USA): 4 games / 3.91 GAA / 0.842
17. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 5 games / 4.97 GAA / 0.835
18. Andreas Salat (AUS): 1 game / 8.99 GAA / 0.833
19. Vern Mott (NOR): 5 games / 5.76 GAA / 0.819
20. Josef Schlickenrieder (W. GER): 2 games / 7.23 GAA / 0.807
21. Patrick Foliot (FRA): 5 games / 7.22 GAA / 0.805
22. Tommy Skaarberg (NOR): 1 game / 8.72 GAA / 0.800
23. Chris Terreri (USA): 3 games / 6.58 GAA / 0.774
24. Daniel Maric (FRA): 2 games / 10.28 GAA / 0.745
25. Franciszek Kukla (POL): 1 game / 4.50 GAA / 0.727
26. Jarl Eriksen (NOR): 1 game / 10.00 GAA / 0.714
27. Robert Mack (AUS): 1 game / 7.50 GAA / 0.706
28. Jean-Marc Dijan (FRA): 1 game / 10.28 GAA / 0.667

OG 1988, awards:
no awards were given

Golden Stick voting:
5th (2nd best goalie)

Izvestia Trophy voting:
no votes

1988-89

League:

Save percentage of ‘top 12 goalies’ of the season, reg. season and playoffs combined:
1. Hašek (Pardubice): 2507 min. / 114 goals allowed / 1138 saves / 2.73 GAA / 0.9089
2. Dragan (Košice): 1560 min. / 79 goals allowed / 677 saves / 3.04 GAA / 0.8955
3. Bříza (Č. Budějovice): 2692 min. / 150 goals allowed / 1271 saves / 3.34 GAA / 0.8944
4. Gula (Jihlava): 1821 min. / 102 goals allowed / 785 saves / 3.36 GAA / 0.8850
5. Svoboda (Jihlava): 2648 min. / 138 goals allowed / 1043 saves / 3.12 GAA / 0.8831
6. Šindel (Sparta): 1842 min. / 107 goals allowed / 783 saves / 3.49 GAA / 0.8798
7. Cagaš (Vítkovice): 1652 min. / 109 goals allowed / 779 saves / 3.96 GAA / 0.8773
8. Blažek (Gottwaldov): 2245 min. / 123 goals allowed / 872 saves / 3.29 GAA / 0.8764
9. Hartmann (Trenčín): 2249 min. / 125 goals allowed / 853 saves / 3.34 GAA / 0.8722
10. Beňo (Slovan): 1561 min. / 90 goals allowed / 590 saves / 3.46 GAA / 0.8676
11. Lukeš (Litvínov): 2294 min. / 174 goals allowed / 1126 saves / 4.55 GAA / 0.8662
12. Dudáček (Kladno): 1951 min. / 149 goals allowed / 884 saves / 4.58 GAA / 0.8558

Note: Tesla Pardubice (Hasek´s team) won the League title this season.

International
WHC 1989, statistics (Source 1, Source 2):
1. Peter Sidorkiewicz (CAN): 1 game / 0.00 GAA / 1.000
2. Sakari Lindfors (FIN): 2 games / 3.00 GAA / 0.9286
3. Arturs Irbe (USSR): 3 games / 1.72 GAA / 0.9265
4. Sergei Mylnikov (USSR): 7 games / 1.57 GAA / 0.9220
5. Sean Burke (CAN): 5 games / 2.19 GAA / 0.9180
6. Jukka Tammi (FIN): 9 games / 2.65 GAA / 0.9161
7. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 10 games / 2.10 GAA / 0.9153
8. Peter Lindmark (SWE): 5 games / 3.01 GAA / 0.9000
9. John Vanbiesbrouck (USA): 5 games / 4.52 GAA / 0.8930
10. Rolf Ridderwall (SWE): 3 games / 3.00 GAA / 0.8916
11. Karl Friesen (W. GER): 8 games / 3.88 GAA / 0.8864
12. Robb Stauber (USA): 6 games / 3.64 GAA / 0.8797
13. Cleon Daskalakis (USA): 1 game / 3.00 GAA / 0.8750
14. Grant Fuhr (CAN): 5 games / 3.62 GAA / 0.8696
15. Andrzej Hanisz (POL): 9 games / 5.21 GAA / 0.8632
16. Peter Aslin (SWE): 2 games / 4.05 GAA / 0.8545
17. Josef Schlickenrieder (W. GER): 2 games / 5.03 GAA / 0.8507
18. Gabriel Samolej (POL): 3 games / 13.26 GAA / 0.7477
19. Dariusz Wieczorek (POL): 1 game / 22.82 GAA / 0.5455

WHC 1989, awards:
IIHF Directoriate´s Best Goaltender: Dominik Hasek
All-Star Team: Dominik Hasek (135 votes)

Golden Stick voting:
1st

Izvestia Trophy voting:

1988/89

1) Vyacheslav Fetisov - 68
2) Dominik Hašek - 29
3) Sergey Makarov - 24
4) Igor Larionov - 11
5) Anders Eldebrink - 7
6) Vyacheslav Bykov - 5
7) Valery Kamensky - 2
Sergey Mylnikov - 2
Börje Salming - 2
Vladimír Růžička - 2
11) Kari Jalonen - 1

1989-90

League:

Save percentage of every goalie with 10+ games played, reg. season and playoffs combined:
1. Hašek (Jihlava): 40 games / 80 goals allowed / 938 saves / 2.13 GAA / 0.9214
2. Bříza (Sparta): 53 games / 137 goals allowed / 1379 saves / 2.64 GAA / 0.9096
3. Dragan (Košice): 47 games / 133 goals allowed / 1107 saves / 3.20 GAA / 0.8927
4. Hnilička (Kladno): 24 games / 70 goals allowed / 578 saves / 0.8920
5. Beňo (Košice): 16 games / 31 goals allowed / 254 saves / 0.8912
6. Fürbacher (Plzeň): 31 games / 89 goals allowed / 715 saves / 3.20 GAA / 0.8893
7. Tóth (Trenčín): 15 games / 44 goals allowed / 344 saves / 0.8866
8. Kameš (Kladno): 39 games / 139 goals allowed / 1075 saves / 4.02 GAA / 0.8855
9. Orct (Litvínov): 27 games / 93 goals allowed / 706 saves / 4.08 GAA / 0.8836
10. Horyna (Jihlava): 13 games / 41 goals allowed / 305 saves / 0.8815
11. Blažek (Zlín): 29 games / 86 goals allowed / 636 saves / 3.41 GAA / 0.8809
12. Cagaš (Vítkovice): 48 games / 173 goals allowed / 1204 saves / 3.80 GAA / 0.8744
13. Hartmann (Trenčín): 46 games / 155 goals allowed / 1072 saves / 3.84 GAA / 0.8736
14. Jelínek (Brno): 35 games / 128 goals allowed / 850 saves / 3.69 GAA / 0.8691
15. Gula (Č. Budějovice): 47 games / 191 goals allowed / 1246 saves / 4.26 GAA / 0.8671
16. Lang (Brno): 10 games / 41 goals allowed / 259 saves / 0.8633
17. Hrazdíra (Zlín): 29 games / 93 goals allowed / 585 saves / 3.88 GAA / 0.8628
18. Svoboda (Pardubice): 31 games / 94 goals allowed / 587 saves / 4.47 GAA / 0.8620
19. Barta (Pardubice): 23 games / 89 goals allowed / 530 saves / 0.8562
20. Lukeš (Litvínov): 34 games / 128 goals allowed / 755 saves / 4.62 GAA / 0.8550
21. Pejchar (Plzeň): 18 games / 70 goals allowed / 397 saves / 0.8501

International
WHC 1990, statistics (Source 1, Source 2):
1. Ken Wregget (CAN): 1 game / 0.00 GAA / 1.000
2. Vladimir Myshkin (USSR): 1 game / 0.00 GAA / 1.000
3. Arturs Irbe (USSR): 6 games / 0.95 GAA / 0.9500
4. Jon Casey (USA): 6 games / 2.69 GAA / 0.9138
5. Rolf Ridderwall (SWE): 8 games / 2.29 GAA / 0.9106
6. Sergei Mylnikov (USSR): 5 games / 1.72 GAA / 0.9080
7. Peter Aslin (SWE): 3 games / 2.33 GAA / 0.9067
8. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 8 games / 2.50 GAA / 0.9038
9. Sakari Lindfors (FIN): 7 games / 2.38 GAA / 0.9032
10. Helmut de Raaf (W. GER): 7 games / 3.55 GAA / 0.9012
11. Bob Essensa (CAN): 4 games / 2.96 GAA / 0.8913
12. Kirk McLean (CAN): 10 games / 3.54 GAA / 0.8875
13. Jim Marthinsen (NOR): 8 games / 5.07 GAA / 0.8615
14. Klaus Merk (W. GER): 4 games / 5.58 GAA / 0.8605
15. John Blue (USA): 5 games / 4.99 GAA / 0.8455
16. Jukka Tammi (FIN): 4 games / 4.65 GAA / 0.8440
17. Petr Briza (CSSR): 2 games / 5.00 GAA / 0.8246
18. Steve Allman (NOR): 4 games / 8.71 GAA / 0.8047
19. Bill Pye (USA): 2 games / 10.92 GAA / 0.7556

WHC 1990, awards:
IIHF Directoriate´s Best Goaltender: Arturs Irbe
1st All-Star Team: Dominik Hasek (50 votes)
2nd All-Star Team: Arturs Irbe (44 votes)

Golden Stick voting:
1st

Izvestia Trophy voting:
award ceased to exist

 

[ResilientBeast]

People's thoughts on Frank Frederickson? Having a hard time trying to place him. His NHL career was kinda yuck, but his PCHA was kinda yeah baby.

No consideration from me

 

[Kyle McMahon]

People's thoughts on Frank Frederickson? Having a hard time trying to place him. His NHL career was kinda yuck, but his PCHA was kinda yeah baby.

Considered him, but ran out of room. I think he'd make my top 150, but it would take a pretty compelling case for me to get him inside my top 120.

The problem I found with Fredrickson (and in a similar vein, Duke Keats and Bullet Joe Simpson) is that a lot of other stars of the pre-consolidation era (1910-1926 in my breakdown of eras) played a lot longer while having similar peaks. Right now I have 10 players from this era listed in my 120, and every one of them was an impact player for a decade or more. As I've maintained throughout this process, once you get past 10 players from one particular era, you have to start making hard decisions and some truly great players end up not making it.

One point of consideration is that these three players I mentioned were stars in the Manitoba Senior league and/or the western Big-4 in and around WWI and shortly after. It's not as if they weren't playing hockey. It's just difficult to give these leagues equal credit to the NHL or PCHA/WHL. Probably an area where more research needs to be conducted on my part. Given that we have another month to finalize these lists, I'll hopefully find time for that.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

A modern player that I didn't really give a lot of thought to, but who's case I am re-examining, is Marian Hossa. There were very few holes in either his skillset or his career resume. Strong skater, great shot, positionally sound...a 200 foot player...strong contributor on three Cup winners and two other finalists.

Hossa didn't seem to get much credit for his great defensive play from Selke voters of this era, who seem to overwhelmingly favour centermen. Therefore Toews was the one racking up Selke votes on the Blackhawks. But I wonder if Hossa doesn't win a couple if voting trends followed the same pattern that favoured Jere Lehtinen over Mike Modano on the Stars in the previous generation. On one hand, Hossa didn't seem to get lauded for his defensive play until teamed with Toews...but on the other hand, Toews had the first minus season of his career and Chicago fell apart right when Hossa left the scene (bad goaltending factor has to be considered though).

I have John Bucyk and Yvon Cournoyer in the latter portion of my list. Part of me wonders if Hossa doesn't deserve to be listed right alongside those players. (Or perhaps I've ranked them too high in the first place)

 

[Canadiens1958]

All right, so here´s a merely informative summary of Hasek´s pre-NHL career without any conclusions:

1981-1982

League:


International:
did not play

Golden Stick voting:
no votes

Izvestia Trophy voting:
no votes

1982-83

League:


International
WHC 1983, statistics (Source 1, Source 2):
1. Vladislav Tretiak (USSR): 7 games / 0.57 GAA / 0.9725
2. Hannu Kamppuri (FIN): 4 games / 3.75 GAA / 0.9368
3. Jiri Kralik (CSSR): 8 games / 2.00 GAA / 0.9328
4. Erich Weishaupt (W. GER): 5 games / 2.60 GAA / 0.9262
5. Vladimir Myshkin (USSR): 3 games / 2.00 GAA / 0.9179
6. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 2 games / 2.50 GAA / 0.9138
7. Rick Wamsley (CAN): 10 games / 3.00 GAA / 0.9094
8. Pelle Lindbergh (SWE): 9 games / 3.00 GAA / 0.9022
9. Kari Takko (FIN): 6 games / 4.19 GAA / 0.8976
10. Karl Friesen (W. GER): 5 games / 4.20 GAA / 0.8907
11. Jim Corsi (ITA): 10 games / 5.28 GAA / 0.8760
12. Rene Bielke (E. GER): 10 games / 3.75 GAA / 0.8632
13. Göte Wälitalo (SWE): 1 game / 5.00 GAA / 0.8276
14. Nick Sanza (ITA): 1 game / 11.20 GAA / 0.7858
15. Ingolf Spantig (E. GER): 1 game / 10.23 GAA / 0.6924

WHC 1983, awards:
IIHF Directoriate´s Best Goaltender: Vladislav Tretiak
1st All-Star Team: Vladislav Tretiak
2nd All-Star Team: Jiri Kralik

Golden Stick voting:
10th (2nd best goalie)

Izvestia Trophy voting:
no votes

1983-84

League:


International
OG 1984:
did not play

Golden Stick voting:
9th (2nd best goalie)

Izvestia Trophy voting:


1984-85

League:


International
CC 1984 (Source):
1. Vladimir Myshkin (USSR): 4 games / 1.43 GAA / 0.940
2. Peter Lindmark (SWE): 7 games / 2.77 GAA / 0.889
3. Tom Barrasso (USA): 5 games / 3.10 GAA / 0.888
4. Grant Fuhr (CAN): 2 games / 3.00 GAA / 0.878
5. Pete Peeters (CAN): 4 games / 3.33 GAA / 0.874
6. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 4 games / 3.45 GAA / 0.867
7. Karl Friesen (W. GER): 4 games / 5.25 GAA / 0.858
8. Alexander Tyzhnykh (USSR): 2 games / 2.00 GAA / 0.852
9. Reggie Lemelin (CAN): 3 games / 3.04 GAA / 0.848
10. Glenn Resch (USA): 2 games / 5.00 GAA / 0.816
11. Göte Wälitalo (SWE): 2 games / 5.37 GAA / 0.807
12. Bernard Engelbrecht (W. GER): 1 game / 8.00 GAA / 0.800
13. Jaromir Sindel (CSSR): 3 games / 5.24 GAA / 0.793

CC 1984, awards:
All-Star Team: Vladimir Myshkin

WHC 1985:
did not play

Golden Stick voting:
17th (2nd best goalie)

Izvestia Trophy voting:
no votes

1985-86

League:


International
WHC 1986, statistics (Source 1, Source 2):
1. Sergei Mylnikov (USSR): 3 games / 1.33 GAA / 0.9166
2. Peter Aslin (SWE): 1 game / 3.00 GAA / 0.9166
3. Evgeny Belosheikin (USSR): 7 games / 1.57 GAA / 0.9153
4. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 9 games / 2.12 GAA / 0.9010
5. Chris Terreri (USA): 5 games / 4.20 GAA / 0.8947
6. Jacques Cloutier (CAN): 5 games / 3.02 GAA / 0.8928
7. Jaromir Sindel (CSSR): 1 game / 2.00 GAA / 0.8888
8. Tom Barrasso (USA): 5 games / 4.15 GAA / 0.8867
9. Hannu Kamppuri (FIN): 5 games / 3.21 GAA / 0.8796
10. Peter Lindmark (SWE): 7 games / 2.96 GAA / 0.8780
11. Jukka Tammi (FIN): 5 games / 3.61 GAA / 0.8732
12. Helmut de Raaf (W. GER): 7 games / 4.58 GAA / 0.8663
13. Ake Lilljebjörn (SWE): 3 games / 3.16 GAA / 0.8571
14. Franciszek Kukla (POL): 9 games / 6.14 GAA / 0.8418
15. Kelly Hrudey (CAN): 5 games / 4.41 GAA / 0.8181
16. Mike Richter (USA): 1 game / 5.66 GAA / 0.8076
17. Andrzej Hanisz (POL): 6 games / 6.70 GAA / 0.8017
18. Erich Weishaupt (W. GER): 4 games / 6.53 GAA / 0.8000

WHC 1986, awards:
IIHF Directoriate´s Best Goaltender: Peter Lindmark
1st All-Star Team: Peter Lindmark (34 votes)
2nd All-Star Team: Chris Terreri

Golden Stick voting:
4th (1st best goalie)

Izvestia Trophy voting:
At least outside Top 9.

1986-87

League:

Note: Tesla Pardubice (Hasek´s team) won the League title this season.

International
WHC 1987, statistics (Source 1, Source 2):
1. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 9 games / 2.19 GAA / 0.9231
2. Evgeny Belosheikin (USSR): 10 games / 1.50 GAA / 0.9227
3. Peter Lindmark (SWE): 7 games / 2.11 GAA / 0.9014
4. Ake Lilljebjörn (SWE): 4 games / 2.10 GAA / 0.9014
5. Sean Burke (CAN): 5 games / 2.40 GAA / 0.8947
6. Jarmo Myllis (FIN): 8 games / 3.49 GAA / 0.8945
7. Jaromir Sindel (CSSR): 2 games / 3.75 GAA / 0.8913
8. Mike Richter (USA): 2 games / 6.00 GAA / 0.8841
9. Bob Froese (CAN): 5 games / 3.60 GAA / 0.8723
10. Helmut de Raaf (W. GER): 5 games / 3.60 GAA / 0.8696
11. Karl Friesen (W. GER): 5 games / 3.80 GAA / 0.8643
12. John Vanbiesbrouck (USA): 7 games / 4.01 GAA / 0.8495
13. Hannu Kamppuri (FIN): 3 games / 3.11 GAA / 0.8409
14. Richard Bucher (SWI): 5 games / 7.43 GAA / 0.8194
15. Olivier Anken (SWI): 7 games / 6.00 GAA / 0.8142
16. Chris Terreri (USA): 2 games / 7.20 GAA / 0.7273
17. Renato Tosio (SWI): 3 games / 13.47 GAA / 0.6944

WHC 1987, awards:
IIHF Directoriate´s Best Goaltender: Dominik Hasek
1st All-Star Team: Dominik Hasek (141 votes)
2nd All-Star Team: Peter Lindmark (135 votes)

Golden Stick voting:
1st

Izvestia Trophy voting:


1987-88

League:


International
CC 1987 (Source):
1. John Vanbiesbrouck (USA): 4 games / 2.25 GAA / 0.922
2. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 6 games / 3.33 GAA / 0.894
3. Sergei Mylnikov (USSR): 6 games / 2.96 GAA / 0.894
4. Grant Fuhr (CAN): 9 games / 3.34 GAA / 0.893
5. Peter Lindmark (SWE): 6 games / 3.00 GAA / 0.882
6. Evgeny Belosheikin (USSR): 3 games / 4.00 GAA / 0.880
7. Kari Takko (FIN): 5 games / 4.71 GAA / 0.877
8. Jarmo Myllis (FIN): 1 game / 3.00 GAA / 0.875
9. Tom Barrasso (USA): 1 game / 5.00 GAA / 0.815

CC 1987, awards:
All-Star Team: Grant Fuhr

OG 1988, statistics (Source 1, Source 2):
1. Jukka Tammi (FIN): 2 games / 1.51 GAA / 0.936
2. Jarmo Myllis (FIN): 6 games / 1.83 GAA / 0.928
3. Gabriel Samolej (POL): 5 games / 2.01 GAA / 0.924
4. Jaromir Sindel (CSSR): 5 games / 2.07 GAA / 0.918
5. Sergei Mylnikov (USSR): 8 games / 1.63 GAA / 0.913
6. Richard Bucher (SWI): 3 games / 3.43 GAA / 0.907
7. Karl Friesen (W. GER): 6 games / 3.11 GAA / 0.906
8. Andrzej Hanisz (POL): 2 games / 3.75 GAA / 0.902
9. Andy Moog (CAN): 4 games / 2.25 GAA / 0.900
10. Olivier Anken (SWI): 4 games / 2.73 GAA / 0.897
11. Sean Burke (CAN): 4 games / 3.02 GAA / 0.893
12. Helmut de Raaf (W. GER): 1 game / 3.00 GAA / 0.885
13. Peter Lindmark (SWE): 7 games / 2.40 GAA / 0.869
14. Peter Aslin (SWE): 2 games / 3.75 GAA / 0.857
15. Brian Stankiewicz (AUS): 5 games / 4.60 GAA / 0.855
16. Mike Richter (USA): 4 games / 3.91 GAA / 0.842
17. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 5 games / 4.97 GAA / 0.835
18. Andreas Salat (AUS): 1 game / 8.99 GAA / 0.833
19. Vern Mott (NOR): 5 games / 5.76 GAA / 0.819
20. Josef Schlickenrieder (W. GER): 2 games / 7.23 GAA / 0.807
21. Patrick Foliot (FRA): 5 games / 7.22 GAA / 0.805
22. Tommy Skaarberg (NOR): 1 game / 8.72 GAA / 0.800
23. Chris Terreri (USA): 3 games / 6.58 GAA / 0.774
24. Daniel Maric (FRA): 2 games / 10.28 GAA / 0.745
25. Franciszek Kukla (POL): 1 game / 4.50 GAA / 0.727
26. Jarl Eriksen (NOR): 1 game / 10.00 GAA / 0.714
27. Robert Mack (AUS): 1 game / 7.50 GAA / 0.706
28. Jean-Marc Dijan (FRA): 1 game / 10.28 GAA / 0.667

OG 1988, awards:
no awards were given

Golden Stick voting:
5th (2nd best goalie)

Izvestia Trophy voting:
no votes

1988-89

League:

Note: Tesla Pardubice (Hasek´s team) won the League title this season.

International
WHC 1989, statistics (Source 1, Source 2):
1. Peter Sidorkiewicz (CAN): 1 game / 0.00 GAA / 1.000
2. Sakari Lindfors (FIN): 2 games / 3.00 GAA / 0.9286
3. Arturs Irbe (USSR): 3 games / 1.72 GAA / 0.9265
4. Sergei Mylnikov (USSR): 7 games / 1.57 GAA / 0.9220
5. Sean Burke (CAN): 5 games / 2.19 GAA / 0.9180
6. Jukka Tammi (FIN): 9 games / 2.65 GAA / 0.9161
7. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 10 games / 2.10 GAA / 0.9153
8. Peter Lindmark (SWE): 5 games / 3.01 GAA / 0.9000
9. John Vanbiesbrouck (USA): 5 games / 4.52 GAA / 0.8930
10. Rolf Ridderwall (SWE): 3 games / 3.00 GAA / 0.8916
11. Karl Friesen (W. GER): 8 games / 3.88 GAA / 0.8864
12. Robb Stauber (USA): 6 games / 3.64 GAA / 0.8797
13. Cleon Daskalakis (USA): 1 game / 3.00 GAA / 0.8750
14. Grant Fuhr (CAN): 5 games / 3.62 GAA / 0.8696
15. Andrzej Hanisz (POL): 9 games / 5.21 GAA / 0.8632
16. Peter Aslin (SWE): 2 games / 4.05 GAA / 0.8545
17. Josef Schlickenrieder (W. GER): 2 games / 5.03 GAA / 0.8507
18. Gabriel Samolej (POL): 3 games / 13.26 GAA / 0.7477
19. Dariusz Wieczorek (POL): 1 game / 22.82 GAA / 0.5455

WHC 1989, awards:
IIHF Directoriate´s Best Goaltender: Dominik Hasek
All-Star Team: Dominik Hasek (135 votes)

Golden Stick voting:
1st

Izvestia Trophy voting:


1989-90

League:


International
WHC 1990, statistics (Source 1, Source 2):
1. Ken Wregget (CAN): 1 game / 0.00 GAA / 1.000
2. Vladimir Myshkin (USSR): 1 game / 0.00 GAA / 1.000
3. Arturs Irbe (USSR): 6 games / 0.95 GAA / 0.9500
4. Jon Casey (USA): 6 games / 2.69 GAA / 0.9138
5. Rolf Ridderwall (SWE): 8 games / 2.29 GAA / 0.9106
6. Sergei Mylnikov (USSR): 5 games / 1.72 GAA / 0.9080
7. Peter Aslin (SWE): 3 games / 2.33 GAA / 0.9067
8. Dominik Hasek (CSSR): 8 games / 2.50 GAA / 0.9038
9. Sakari Lindfors (FIN): 7 games / 2.38 GAA / 0.9032
10. Helmut de Raaf (W. GER): 7 games / 3.55 GAA / 0.9012
11. Bob Essensa (CAN): 4 games / 2.96 GAA / 0.8913
12. Kirk McLean (CAN): 10 games / 3.54 GAA / 0.8875
13. Jim Marthinsen (NOR): 8 games / 5.07 GAA / 0.8615
14. Klaus Merk (W. GER): 4 games / 5.58 GAA / 0.8605
15. John Blue (USA): 5 games / 4.99 GAA / 0.8455
16. Jukka Tammi (FIN): 4 games / 4.65 GAA / 0.8440
17. Petr Briza (CSSR): 2 games / 5.00 GAA / 0.8246
18. Steve Allman (NOR): 4 games / 8.71 GAA / 0.8047
19. Bill Pye (USA): 2 games / 10.92 GAA / 0.7556

WHC 1990, awards:
IIHF Directoriate´s Best Goaltender: Arturs Irbe
1st All-Star Team: Dominik Hasek (50 votes)
2nd All-Star Team: Arturs Irbe (44 votes)

Golden Stick voting:
1st

Izvestia Trophy voting:
award ceased to exist

Definitely interesting and worth more study. Domestic league numbers tend below Hasek' s NHL numbers.

Internationally. Understand the impact of the Soviet Machine but the impact should be the same on goalies from second and third tier countries-Ridderwall. So it is what it is.

To move the needle domestic scheduling has to be looked at.

 

[steve141]

A modern player that I didn't really give a lot of thought to, but who's case I am re-examining, is Marian Hossa. There were very few holes in either his skillset or his career resume. Strong skater, great shot, positionally sound...a 200 foot player...strong contributor on three Cup winners and two other finalists.

Hossa didn't seem to get much credit for his great defensive play from Selke voters of this era, who seem to overwhelmingly favour centermen. Therefore Toews was the one racking up Selke votes on the Blackhawks. But I wonder if Hossa doesn't win a couple if voting trends followed the same pattern that favoured Jere Lehtinen over Mike Modano on the Stars in the previous generation. On one hand, Hossa didn't seem to get lauded for his defensive play until teamed with Toews...but on the other hand, Toews had the first minus season of his career and Chicago fell apart right when Hossa left the scene (bad goaltending factor has to be considered though).

I have John Bucyk and Yvon Cournoyer in the latter portion of my list. Part of me wonders if Hossa doesn't deserve to be listed right alongside those players. (Or perhaps I've ranked them too high in the first place)

Hossa was definitely lauded for his defensive play with both the Pens and the Red Wings. One of the best forwards of the last 20 years period. I'd easily rank him ahead of Bucyk, though neither made my list.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I have John Bucyk and Yvon Cournoyer in the latter portion of my list. Part of me wonders if Hossa doesn't deserve to be listed right alongside those players. (Or perhaps I've ranked them too high in the first place)

I didn't give Hossa serious consideration for my list. I'd likely have him around 150-175, along with his contemporaries Elias and Alfredsson.

Cournoyer didn't make my list either. Bucyk is hanging onto a spot (out of the top 100, but within the 120), but I've been moving him downwards.

 

[Dingo]

Would like to know who the Czech goon was?

not Czech. a sabre.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

... uh? I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but Clapper sticks out like a sore thumb in this group.

Why is that?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Great stuff, @DN28

Interesting to see how close voting was for the World Championship All-Star Team was in 1987 and 1990 (the latter I had assumed based on Irbe’s accolade).

Given the assertion on his potential disinterest in the 1991 Canada Cup, I am curious: was there similar feelings that may explain the 1988 Olympics where he ranked 17th in save percentage in the tournament? I’ve seen highlights (that obviously aren’t going to be flattering to any goaltender - particularly that bouncing goal in the win over Finland), but was he rushed back into the tournament from injury too soon?

 

[MXD]

Why is that?

It's pretty much top half material (with some arguably Top Quarter -- Makarov and Hall -- as far as I'm concerned) ... Save Clapper.

I mean, the same post describes Earl Seibert as a "reject list if not in", a proposition to which I MIGHT actually agree to. As in -- one can argue that Seibert off the list would probably involve something like "not giving fair consideration to every era". I don't think Seibert is THAT good (and I have him knocking at the top-half of my list!!!) but I understand a potential argument. He's probably the worse Pre-WWII player for such a tag (or the best to NOT have it).

But Clapper? What the hell. He's basically Babe Siebert who went on play longer by virtue of DOB/WWII/Not dying. Which might, or not, be okay for our purposes. Worse players than Clapper (and Siebert) will be ranked, but there should be absolutely nothing wrong is lacking room for both.

And I say that as a guy who is really Pre-WWII friendly.

 

[MXD]

Pushed, Nighbor, Hap Holmes, Kelly, Syd Howe,Kennedy, Armstrong, Pulford,Brodeur, the O6 and other goalies who did not run from tough starts.

Critical of Lafleur, Price.

It shouldn't be relevant at this level.

People's thoughts on Frank Frederickson? Having a hard time trying to place him. His NHL career was kinda yuck, but his PCHA was kinda yeah baby.

I'll almost certainly lack room for him.

Goddamnit, who cares about Hasek's 1991 Canada Cup? You can find holes in every legend's resume, from Lemieux to Jagr, from Hull to Lafleur! Dom's holes are not bigger than any of these.

I'm tempted to say it should matter, since he was just about to join the NHL (as a backup).
Still... It's not like he didn't have great performances before CC91. So it pretty much has to be taken for what it is : he had a weak tournament.

Hossa didn't seem to get much credit for his great defensive play from Selke voters of this era, who seem to overwhelmingly favour centermen. Therefore Toews was the one racking up Selke votes on the Blackhawks. But I wonder if Hossa doesn't win a couple if voting trends followed the same pattern that favoured Jere Lehtinen over Mike Modano on the Stars in the previous generation. On one hand, Hossa didn't seem to get lauded for his defensive play until teamed with Toews...but on the other hand, Toews had the first minus season of his career and Chicago fell apart right when Hossa left the scene (bad goaltending factor has to be considered though).

I have John Bucyk and Yvon Cournoyer in the latter portion of my list. Part of me wonders if Hossa doesn't deserve to be listed right alongside those players. (Or perhaps I've ranked them too high in the first place)

Very interesting thoughts on Hossa. I think he belongs ahead of Cournoyer, though I don't think any of them ends up making it.

 

[DN28]

Definitely interesting and worth more study. Domestic league numbers tend below Hasek' s NHL numbers.

Internationally. Understand the impact of the Soviet Machine but the impact should be the same on goalies from second and third tier countries-Ridderwall. So it is what it is.

To move the needle domestic scheduling has to be looked at.

It was a high-scoring environment for Hasek in the 1980s, typically some amount over 7.0 goals per game. I counted average Czechoslovak league GPG several years ago.

Post-WW2 League goals per game rate:
1946: 6.66 gpg
1947: 11.07 gpg
1948: 11.22 gpg
1949: 9.79 gpg
1950: 8.73 gpg
1951: 8.91 gpg
1952: 9.20 gpg
1953: 10.40 gpg
1954: 8.97 gpg
1955: 8.20 gpg
1956: 8.36 gpg
1957: 7.86 gpg
1958: 8.07 gpg
1959: 7.40 gpg
1960: 7.66 gpg
1961: 7.91 gpg
1962: 8.45 gpg
1963: 7.75 gpg
1964: 8.69 gpg
1965: 8.28 gpg
1966: 8.12 gpg
1967: 7.58 gpg
1968: 7.59 gpg
1969: 7.68 gpg
1970: 7.17 gpg
1971: reg. season 7.13, playoffs 5.77 gpg
1972: 6.25 gpg
1973: reg. season 6.58, playoffs 6.14 gpg
1974: 6.87 gpg
1975: 6.48 gpg
1976: 6.68 gpg
1977: 7.18 gpg
1978: 6.77 gpg
1979: 6.94 gpg
1980: 7.20 gpg
1981: 7.48 gpg
1982: 7.00 gpg
1983: 7.46 gpg
1984: 6.97 gpg
1985: 7.03 gpg
1986: reg. season 7.04, playoffs 7.38 gpg
1987: reg. season 6.73, playoffs 7.55 gpg
1988: reg. season 7.17, playoffs 7.88 gpg
1989: reg. season 7.34, playoffs 7.73 gpg
1990: reg. season 7.49, playoffs 7.59 gpg
______________________

I took a look at domestic scheduling from this site. Three randomly picked seasons.

1967-68:
10 league teams, 1st round, 5 games played September 30.
2nd round, 4 games played October 4, 1 game October 3.
3rd round, 5 games played October 7.
4th round, 4 games played October 11, 1 game October 10.
5th round, 5 games played October 14.
6th round, 2 games played October 18, 2 games October 17, 1 game October 19.
7th round, 5 games played October 21.
8th round, 4 games played October 25, 1 game October 24.
9th round, 5 games played October 28.
10th round, 4 games played November 1, 1 game October 31.
11th round, 5 games played November 4.
12th round, 5 games played November 8.
13th round, 5 games played November 11.
14th round, 4 games played November 15, 1 game November 14.
15th round, 5 games played November 18.
16th round, 4 games played November 23, 1 game November 22.
17th round, 5 games played December 10.
18th round, 4 games played December 13, 1 game played December 12.
19th round, 5 games played December 16.
20th round, 4 games played December 20, 1 game played January 11.
21th round, 5 games played December 27.
22th round, 5 games played December 30.
23th round, 4 games played January 3, 1 game January 2.
24th round, 5 games played January 6.
25th round, 3 games played January 10, 2 games January 9.
26th round, 5 games played January 13.
27th round, 4 games played February 24, 1 game February 25.
28th round, 5 games played February 28.
29th round, 4 games played March 2, 1 game March 3.
30th round, 5 games played March 6.
31th round, 5 games played March 9.
32th round, 4 games played March 13, 1 game March 12.
33th round, 5 games played March 16.
34th round, 5 games played March 20.
35th round, 5 games played March 23.
36th round, 4 games played March 27, 1 game March 26.

1977-1978
12 league teams, 1st round, 6 games played September 27.
2nd round, 5 games played September 30, 1 game October 1.
3rd round, 6 games played October 4.
4th round, 5 games played October 7, 1 game October 8.
5th round, 6 games played October 11.
6th round, 5 games played October 14, 1 game October 15.
7th round, 6 games played October 18.
8th round, 5 games played October 21, 1 game October 22.
9th round, 6 games played October 25.
10th round, 6 games played October 28.
11th round, 6 games played October 30.
12th round, 6 games played November 1.
13th round, 5 games played November 4, 1 game November 5.
14th round, 6 games played November 8.
15th round, 4 games played November 11, 1 game November 10, 1 game November 12.
16th round, 6 games played November 15.
17th round, 5 games played November 18, 1 game November 19.
18th round, 6 games played November 22.
19th round, 5 games played November 25, 1 game November 26.
20th round, 6 games played November 29.
21th round, 5 games played December 2, 1 game December 3.
22th round, 6 games played December 5.
23th round, 6 games played January 10.
24th round, 5 games played January 13, 1 game January 14.
25th round, 6 games played January 17.
26th round, 5 games played January 20, 1 game January 21.
27th round, 6 games played January 24.
28th round, 6 games played Janury 27.
29th round, 6 games played January 29.
30th round, 6 games played January 31.
31th round, 5 games played February 3, 1 game February 4.
32th round, 6 games played February 7.
33th round, 6 games played February 10.
34th round, 6 games played February 28.
35th round, 5 games played March 3, 1 game March 4.
36th round, 6 games played March 7.
37th round, 5 games played March 10, 1 game March 11.
38th round, 6 games played March 14.
39th round, 5 games played March 17, 1 game March 18.
40th round, 6 games played March 21.
41th round, 5 games played March 24, 1 game March 25.
42th round, 6 games played March 28.
43th round, 6 games played March 31.
44th round, 6 games played April 2.
Additional 1 play-out game for relegation played April 5.

1987-1988
12 league teams, 1st round, 5 games played September 22, 1 game October 11.
2nd round, 4 games played September 25, 1 game September 26, 1 game October 11.
3rd round, 6 games played September 29.
4th round, 6 games played October 2.
5th round, 6 games played October 6.
6th round, 6 games played October 9.
7th round, 6 games played October 13.
8th round, 5 games played October 16, 1 game October 17.
9th round, 6 games played October 20.
10th round, 5 games played October 23, 1 game October 24.
11th round, 6 games played November 3.
12th round, 6 games played November 6.
13th round, 6 games played November 10.
14th round, 6 games played November 13.
15th round, 6 games played November 17.
16th round, 4 games played November 20, 1 game November 21, 1 game September 18.
17th round, 5 games played November 24, 1 game November 8.
18th round, 5 games played November 27, 1 game November 28.
19th round, 6 games played December 1.
20th round, 5 games played December 4, 1 game December 5.
21th round, 6 games played December 8.
22th round, 6 games played December 11.
23th round, 6 games played March 6.
24th round, 6 games played January 8.
25th round, 6 games played January 10.
26th round, 6 games played January 12.
27th round, 6 games played March 4.
28th round, 6 games played March 8.
29th round, 6 games played March 11.
30th round, 6 games played March 13.
31th round, 6 games played March 15.
32th round, 5 games played March 18, 1 game March 19.
33th round, 6 games played March 22.
34th round, 5 games played March 25, 1 game March 26.

Play-out relegation group (9.-12. place), 4 teams, 1st round, 2 games played March 29.
2nd round, 2 games played April 1.
3rd round, 2 games played April 5.
4th round, 2 games played April 8.
5th round, 2 games played April 10.
6th round, 2 games played April 12.
7th round, 2 games played April 15.
8th round, 2 games played April 19.
9th round, 2 games played April 21.
10th round, 2 games played April 23.
11th round, 2 games played April 25.
12th round, 2 games played April 28.

Play-off quarterfinals, best-of-five, 8 teams, games played on March 29, March 30, April 2, April 3, April 5.

Subsequent play-off series between QF losers for 5.-8. place, best-of-five, 4 teams, games played on April 9, April 10, April 13, April 14, April 17, April 20, April 21, April 24, April 25, April 28.

Play-off semifinals, best-of-five, 4 teams, games played on April 9, April 10, April 13, April 14, April 17.

Subsequent play-off series between SF losers for 3.-4. place, best-of-five, 2 teams, games played on April 20, April 21, April 24, April 25, April 28.

Play-off finals, best-of-five, 2 teams, games played on April 21, April 22, April 26, April 27, April 30.