Marotte Marauder
Registered User
- Aug 10, 2008
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Pretty even I think but Stevens was a game changer.Who peaked higher, Chara or Stevens?
Pretty even I think but Stevens was a game changer.Who peaked higher, Chara or Stevens?
It's hard to believe, but the man retired with 0 Norris trophies. He did pick up the Smythe one year though
Was Hart runner-up in '87 to a prime Gretzky. Nearly won the Hart in '90 in a close race with Messier.When was Bourque considered the game's best player?
When was Bourque considered the game's best player?
Was Hart runner-up in '87 to a prime Gretzky. Nearly won the Hart in '90 in a close race with Messier.
Keep in mind I said "Or at least definitely among the top two or three candidates", so Bourque certainly qualifies.
You could say Karlsson's has a higher offensive peak than Lidstrom, but even in his best year, Karlsson didn't blow Lidstrom out of the water offensively. Lidstrom blows Karlsson out of the water on the defensive side of the ice. Karlsson has a long way to go to match Lidstrom there.
Thus, if you look at both ends of the ice, Lidstrom easily has a higher peak.
Bourque in discussion for best player? I never heard a whiff of that. How many guys did the Canadiens GM want to give up for Potvin at the draft?How many defencemen in their career were considered, even if only briefly, as the best player in the game? Not just best defenceman, but best player. Or at least definitely among the top two or three candidates, not only by Hart voting, but by the perceived consensus by most observers at the time:
Shore (definitely)
Kelly (maybe)
Harvey (probably)
Orr (absolutely)
Bourque (probably)
Lidstrom (maybe)
Pronger (probably)
Karlsson (maybe)
There's a few others who could be considered maybes, but to me this is where guys like Pilote or Coffey come up short. As great as they were, I don't think they were ever considered the best player on their respective teams, let alone the entire league.
That's a fair point, but Lidstrom wasn't leeching off anybody. He would have made everyone around him better regardless of where he played. That's what great players do. Orr and Harvey always had tons of talent around them as well. In my mind, Lidstrom was the best player Detroit had post mid 90's. He make everyone else around him better on both ends of the ice.I'd say Karlsson's offensive edge at his peak is bigger than the picture you paint if you consider what he was working with and what Lidstrom was working with.
From 2000-2008(Lidstroms highest offensive years/prime) he sits 1st among ALL wings players in points and assists. Did playing with better talent around him help? Yes, but his offense was hardly a product of it considering he was consistent enough to out play a majority of his teammates.I'd say Karlsson's offensive edge at his peak is bigger than the picture you paint if you consider what he was working with and what Lidstrom was working with.
From '87-'91, he had 4 Norris trophies and finished 2nd in Hart voting twice, narrowly missing in 1990, also finished 4th in Hart voting one other year.Bourque in discussion for best player? I never heard a whiff of that. How many guys did the Canadiens GM want to give up for Potvin at the draft?
Same with Harvey and Kelly. Between Beliveau, Howe and then later Hull, I cant see a time when both players were the best.
You really think Karlsson has a better peak than Lidstrom?
1953 - Red Kelly was a close 2nd in Hart voting (to goalie Al Rollins!) and won a media vote for "most outstanding player" in the league.
Outscoring / being the best player on the team with Datsyuk and Zetterberg >>> outscoring / being the best player on the team with Stone.I think peak wise you can argue it. Lidstrom never had to carry an entire team like Karlsson has. Who is the best forward Ottawa has had in recent years........Mark Stone? Nothing wrong with that, but again nothing Lidstrom ever had to worry about. There was always either Yzerman and Fedorov or Datsyuk and Zetterberg.
I think more and more when you watch Karlsson you realize just how much of the load he carries per game, or per shift.
I haven't seen enough of Karlsson to really judge his defensive game, but I tend to agree that he has not shown the defensive adeptness of a Lidstrom, at any particular time.Wake me up when Karlsson becomes elite defensively for, I dunno, one season, before he even sniffs Lidstrom.
Outscoring / being the best player on the team with Datsyuk and Zetterberg >>> outscoring / being the best player on the team with Stone.
Outscoring / being the best player on the team with Datsyuk and Zetterberg >>> outscoring / being the best player on the team with Stone.
Wake me up when Karlsson becomes elite defensively for, I dunno, one season, before he even sniffs Lidstrom.