Top 10 Defensemen peaks all time

[Marotte Marauder]

Who peaked higher, Chara or Stevens?

Pretty even I think but Stevens was a game changer.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Chara never reached the level Stevens did during the 93-94 regular season or 1995 and 2000 playoffs.

He more consistently brought powerplay offense than Stevens and therefore was more consistent overall, but didn't reach Scott's heights.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's hard to believe, but the man retired with 0 Norris trophies. He did pick up the Smythe one year though

Stevens' 1993-94 was one of the best non-Norris seasons ever, however. He led the #2 team in the league (in both scoring and overall) in offense, led the league in plus/minus, led all D in even strength scoring, and was a rock on D. Extremely narrow loss to one of Ray Bourque's best seasons ever, after Ray Bourque scored a lot more on the PP. Good enough for top 10 all-time? Probably not. But it's up there.

 

[Sentinel]

1. Putting Karlsson over Lidstrom in any capacity completely ignores actual DEFENSE.

2. Fetisov had a phenomenal peak. So did Potvin.

 

[reckoning]

How many defencemen in their career were considered, even if only briefly, as the best player in the game? Not just best defenceman, but best player. Or at least definitely among the top two or three candidates, not only by Hart voting, but by the perceived consensus by most observers at the time:

Shore (definitely)
Kelly (maybe)
Harvey (probably)
Orr (absolutely)
Bourque (probably)
Lidstrom (maybe)
Pronger (probably)
Karlsson (maybe)

There's a few others who could be considered maybes, but to me this is where guys like Pilote or Coffey come up short. As great as they were, I don't think they were ever considered the best player on their respective teams, let alone the entire league.

 

[Neutrinos]

When was Bourque considered the game's best player?

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Same with Harvey and Kelly. Between Beliveau, Howe and then later Hull, I cant see a time when both players were the best.

 

[reckoning]

When was Bourque considered the game's best player?

Was Hart runner-up in '87 to a prime Gretzky. Nearly won the Hart in '90 in a close race with Messier.

Keep in mind I said "Or at least definitely among the top two or three candidates", so Bourque certainly qualifies.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

When was Bourque considered the game's best player?

to be fair, other than Orr no defenseman in history would be considered 'games best player' up against Gretzky and Lemeiux.

Bourque was consistently top 2-3 players in the league with those 2 however

 

[Neutrinos]

Was Hart runner-up in '87 to a prime Gretzky. Nearly won the Hart in '90 in a close race with Messier.

Keep in mind I said "Or at least definitely among the top two or three candidates", so Bourque certainly qualifies.

Yeah, I missed that part in the original message. I'll be sure to read more carefully next time

Bourque certainly qualifies

 

[GreatGonzo]

Stevens '94 season was definitely a peak one for him. 78 points in 83 games(1st on team in points and assists) +53(1st in NHL) and arguably should have won the Norris over Bourque that year.

I also don't understand people saying EK>Lidstrom in terms of peak. Lidstrom was extremely consistent, making it hard to determine a "peak", but his 06-08 seasons were phenomenal.

 

[GMR]

You could say Karlsson's has a higher offensive peak than Lidstrom, but even in his best year, Karlsson didn't blow Lidstrom out of the water offensively. Lidstrom blows Karlsson out of the water on the defensive side of the ice. Karlsson has a long way to go to match Lidstrom there.

Thus, if you look at both ends of the ice, Lidstrom easily has a higher peak.

 

[BenchBrawl]

You could say Karlsson's has a higher offensive peak than Lidstrom, but even in his best year, Karlsson didn't blow Lidstrom out of the water offensively. Lidstrom blows Karlsson out of the water on the defensive side of the ice. Karlsson has a long way to go to match Lidstrom there.

Thus, if you look at both ends of the ice, Lidstrom easily has a higher peak.

I'd say Karlsson's offensive edge at his peak is bigger than the picture you paint if you consider what he was working with and what Lidstrom was working with.

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

How many defencemen in their career were considered, even if only briefly, as the best player in the game? Not just best defenceman, but best player. Or at least definitely among the top two or three candidates, not only by Hart voting, but by the perceived consensus by most observers at the time:

Shore (definitely)
Kelly (maybe)
Harvey (probably)
Orr (absolutely)
Bourque (probably)
Lidstrom (maybe)
Pronger (probably)
Karlsson (maybe)

There's a few others who could be considered maybes, but to me this is where guys like Pilote or Coffey come up short. As great as they were, I don't think they were ever considered the best player on their respective teams, let alone the entire league.

Bourque in discussion for best player? I never heard a whiff of that. How many guys did the Canadiens GM want to give up for Potvin at the draft?

 

[GMR]

I'd say Karlsson's offensive edge at his peak is bigger than the picture you paint if you consider what he was working with and what Lidstrom was working with.

That's a fair point, but Lidstrom wasn't leeching off anybody. He would have made everyone around him better regardless of where he played. That's what great players do. Orr and Harvey always had tons of talent around them as well. In my mind, Lidstrom was the best player Detroit had post mid 90's. He make everyone else around him better on both ends of the ice.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I'd say Karlsson's offensive edge at his peak is bigger than the picture you paint if you consider what he was working with and what Lidstrom was working with.

From 2000-2008(Lidstroms highest offensive years/prime) he sits 1st among ALL wings players in points and assists. Did playing with better talent around him help? Yes, but his offense was hardly a product of it considering he was consistent enough to out play a majority of his teammates.

I think it's more worthy to note that Lidstrom was a great offensive player on a great team with talent, than Being a great offensive talent on an ok team with little talent.

Bourque in discussion for best player? I never heard a whiff of that. How many guys did the Canadiens GM want to give up for Potvin at the draft?

From '87-'91, he had 4 Norris trophies and finished 2nd in Hart voting twice, narrowly missing in 1990, also finished 4th in Hart voting one other year.

I would say that he was definitely in the convo during that time frame.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Same with Harvey and Kelly. Between Beliveau, Howe and then later Hull, I cant see a time when both players were the best.

1953 - Red Kelly was a close 2nd in Hart voting (to goalie Al Rollins!) and won a media vote for "most outstanding player" in the league.

 

[Big Phil]

You really think Karlsson has a better peak than Lidstrom?

I think peak wise you can argue it. Lidstrom never had to carry an entire team like Karlsson has. Who is the best forward Ottawa has had in recent years........Mark Stone? Nothing wrong with that, but again nothing Lidstrom ever had to worry about. There was always either Yzerman and Fedorov or Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

I think more and more when you watch Karlsson you realize just how much of the load he carries per game, or per shift.

Plus as it has already been mentioned, Lidstrom didn't really have a peak. Came into his own in the late 1990s and then sort of stayed that way until 2010 or so without much fluctuation. Obviously Karlsson has a long ways to go to catch him overall, but at their best are they close? Yes, for sure.

 

[Pominville Knows]

The only top 10 list Karlsson is in if you ask me is top 10 Dou***bag players that i have met. He is very often extraordinary arrogant towards fans when no cameras are watching. He is one of those few players that wont sign autographs on paper and he even manage to notice when someone gives him a China knock-off jersey to sign.
Probably top 3 or something.

 

[Canadiens1958]

1953 - Red Kelly was a close 2nd in Hart voting (to goalie Al Rollins!) and won a media vote for "most outstanding player" in the league.

Most valuable or most outstanding is not a synomym for best.

That said as more information about Kelly playing both defence and forward during his time with the Red Wings surfaces, it definitely enhances the perception of his value to the team.

 

[Sentinel]

I think peak wise you can argue it. Lidstrom never had to carry an entire team like Karlsson has. Who is the best forward Ottawa has had in recent years........Mark Stone? Nothing wrong with that, but again nothing Lidstrom ever had to worry about. There was always either Yzerman and Fedorov or Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

I think more and more when you watch Karlsson you realize just how much of the load he carries per game, or per shift.

Outscoring / being the best player on the team with Datsyuk and Zetterberg >>> outscoring / being the best player on the team with Stone.

Wake me up when Karlsson becomes elite defensively for, I dunno, one season, before he even sniffs Lidstrom.

 

[The Panther]

Wake me up when Karlsson becomes elite defensively for, I dunno, one season, before he even sniffs Lidstrom.

I haven't seen enough of Karlsson to really judge his defensive game, but I tend to agree that he has not shown the defensive adeptness of a Lidstrom, at any particular time.

That said, the number of goals-against Karlsson has been on the ice for during, say, an average season over the past 5 years or so is about the same as the goals-against Lidstrom was on for during his final six or seven seasons. I can't imagine that Karlsson was playing less minutes or getting easier match-ups (indeed, probably more minutes and harder match-ups) than Lidstrom.

It's a bit hard to compare these kinds of things simply because Karlsson is the undisputed top guy on his team and has been since 2011 or so. Lidstrom was arguably never the top guy on his team (certainly not offensively), which meant he could pick his spots more "easily" if you will.

I feel safe in saying Lidstrom was the better defensive player, but I'm not convinced that if the roles were reversed, Lidstrom might have had the same defensive dilemmas Karlsson sometimes faces (however, I'm into pure speculation now).

 

[quoipourquoi]

Outscoring / being the best player on the team with Datsyuk and Zetterberg >>> outscoring / being the best player on the team with Stone.

From 2015-16 through 2016-17, Erik Karlsson was 5th in league scoring, and he punctuated that two-season run with a playoff peppered with individual highlights in which his team unexpectedly made it to Game 7 OT in the Conference Finals against the champions.

He cleared a higher threshold than being better than Stone.

 

[ChiefWiggum]

I know that the question is which defenseman had the greatest peak in terms of career, but you can't argue that Pronger brought his back to an other worldly level in the 2006 and 2010 playoffs

 

[Big Phil]

Outscoring / being the best player on the team with Datsyuk and Zetterberg >>> outscoring / being the best player on the team with Stone.

Wake me up when Karlsson becomes elite defensively for, I dunno, one season, before he even sniffs Lidstrom.

When did he outscore Datsyuk and Zetterberg? Maybe Zetterberg occasionally but he was never the top scoring player on his team in his career.

I am not putting Karlsson up with Lidstrom career-wise of course, but at what point do we start giving Karlsson his credit as perhaps the best player in the NHL outside of Sid and Connor?

All I can say is that I never saw Lidstrom carry his team the way Karlsson did last year in the playoffs. I think there is a short list of all-time defensemen who did that. Plus all he's done in the past 5-6 years. It is getting pretty hard to ignore now. You can still say that Lidstrom at his best is better than Karlsson at his best, but if you don't think it is close, I can't see why. Lidstrom is better known as a defenseman with longstanding elite play rather than high peaks. There are defenseman who are below him on the all-time list that peaked higher than him.