Confirmed with Link: The Zaitsev era has ended. Traded to Chicago.

[DaveMatthew]

As far as difference makers, Bill Armstrong had Kuemper, OEL, Garland and Dvorak to trade.

Pierre Dorion had EK, Stone, Duchene, Hoffman, Pageau, Brassard and Dzingel to trade.

It's not exactly a fair comparison, but for the record the Canucks' 9th overall pick that ended up turning into Guenther was probably a more valuable piece than anything Dorion got for us.

You realize that Dorion traded Karlsson for a 1st round pick that ended up netting us Tim Stützle + Josh Norris right? And we still have Zack Ostapchuk from that trade tree.

I mean, I'm as critical about many PD moves as any, but yikes.

 

[JD1]

Perhaps @Hale The Villain you could run through the respective rosters, current lineups, current league standings and show us how missing the playoffs 10 years out of 11 and all these great moves by Arizona have them currently sitting in a better position than we are.

 

[Hale The Villain]

It's hard to tell if you don't really get it or if you're being disingenuous.

I'm not going to go toe to toe with you recalling all the past deals that led to picks, but we both know that Arizona has been collecting picks for acquiring bad contracts basically forever. Frankly it's a practice that I would prefer the league do away with as it allows teams to bury mistakes.

We've made 48 draft choices in the Dorion era in 7 drafts. 7*7 is 49. Of those, 20 have been 1st or 2nd rounders. 7*2 is 14.

So anyway you look at that data, over 7 years we've picked one less than we should, with the lean years being 2016 and 2017. I couldn't be bothered to look back to see if the lean picking years are attributable to Murray.

We've also drafted 20 times in the 1st and 2nd rounds whereas had he done nothing, that number would be 14. It seems he's considerably strengthened our opportunity to pick at the top of the draft.

You keep doing you, which is twisting things to form a narrative and I'll keep doing me which is posting factual information that disrupts certain narratives.

It seems we both enjoy our respective roles so it's all good

What's disingenuous is pretending it's impressive to pick 16 times in the top 2 rounds during a 5 year rebuild after trading more talent away than any other team in the last decade.

We would have picked 10 times in the top 2 rounds over that 5 year span without any trades. You expect me to be impressed with 6 extra picks after trading away:

Karlsson: 62 points in 71 games prior to trade
Stone: 62 points in 59 games prior to trade
Duchene: 58 points in 50 games prior to trade
Hoffman: 56 points in 82 games prior to trade
Dzingel: 44 points in 57 games prior to trade
Pageau: 40 points in 60 games prior to trade
Brassard: 38 points in 58 games prior to trade

That's an insane amount of talent to trade in a 3 year span. Should have picked a lot more in the top 2 rounds than we did from 2018-2022. Already starting to see the effects of a depleted pipeline, which is embarrassing.

 

[Hale The Villain]

You realize that Dorion traded Karlsson for a 1st round pick that ended up netting us Tim Stützle + Josh Norris right? And we still have Zack Ostapchuk from that trade tree.

I mean, I'm as critical about many PD moves as any, but yikes.

That pick wasn't expected to be top 10 at the time of the trade, whereas the Guenther pick was 9th at the time it was traded.

That asset was the most valuable piece returned by either team for any of their players traded, but obviously the Sharks running into injury issues and generally declining in 2020/21 ended up producing a higher 1st.

 

[JD1]

What's disingenuous is pretending it's impressive to pick 16 times in the top 2 rounds during a 5 year rebuild after trading more talent away than any other team in the last decade.

We would have picked 10 times in the top 2 rounds over that 5 year span without any trades. You expect me to be impressed with 6 extra picks after trading away:

Karlsson: 62 points in 71 games prior to trade
Stone: 62 points in 59 games prior to trade
Duchene: 58 points in 50 games prior to trade
Hoffman: 56 points in 82 games prior to trade
Dzingel: 44 points in 57 games prior to trade
Pageau: 40 points in 60 games prior to trade
Brassard: 38 points in 58 games prior to trade

That's an insane amount of talent to trade in a 3 year span. Should have picked a lot more in the top 2 rounds than we did from 2018-2022. Already starting to see the effects of a depleted pipeline, which is embarrassing.

Well I think you're missing a few players that we acquired via trade.

Idk, I can't quite put my finger on any players we've acquired by trade that are valuable pieces but I'm sure there's some.

 

[DaveMatthew]

What's disingenuous is pretending it's impressive to pick 16 times in the top 2 rounds during a 5 year rebuild after trading more talent away than any other team in the last decade.

We would have picked 10 times in the top 2 rounds over that 5 year span without any trades. You expect me to be impressed with 6 extra picks after trading away:

Karlsson: 62 points in 71 games prior to trade
Stone: 62 points in 59 games prior to trade
Duchene: 58 points in 50 games prior to trade
Hoffman: 56 points in 82 games prior to trade
Dzingel: 44 points in 57 games prior to trade
Pageau: 40 points in 60 games prior to trade
Brassard: 38 points in 58 games prior to trade

That's an insane amount of talent to trade in a 3 year span. Should have picked a lot more in the top 2 rounds than we did from 2018-2022. Already starting to see the effects of a depleted pipeline, which is embarrassing.

So you just care about quantity not quality then?

Show me a team that has traded a star player on an expiring contract for a better return than Tim Stützle and Josh Norris in the last 10 years.

And how are we seeing the effects of a depleted pipeline? The reality is our core is set for the next 6-8 years: Stützle, Tkachuk, Chabot, Sanderson, Norris. Not to mention Greig, Pinto, JBD, Kleven, Ostapchuk, etc. 2-3 of those guys are going to stick. Everything else is moving deck chairs around, and we'll be able to do a few times and hopefully get the formula right once.

If a new GM came in and traded Pinto for three 2nds this summer to "restock", would you be happy?

 

[Hale The Villain]

Perhaps @Hale The Villain you could run through the respective rosters, current lineups, current league standings and show us how missing the playoffs 10 years out of 11 and all these great moves by Arizona have them currently sitting in a better position than we are.

Talk about a strawman

If we're talking about the performance of the GM in delivering value for his team during a rebuild, Bill Armstrong absolutely killed it for Arizona and shows how badly Pierre Dorion performed in comparison.

 

[Golden_Jet]

It's not exactly a fair comparison, but for the record the Canucks' 9th overall pick that ended up turning into Guenther was probably a more valuable piece than anything Dorion got for us.

Lol, I don’t believe you think this ,… I hope.

 

[BondraTime]

Lol, I don’t believe you think this ,… I hope.

We got Guenther and 6/7 pick for Motte.

Gauthier/Guenther

 

[DaveMatthew]

That pick wasn't expected to be top 10 at the time of the trade, whereas the Guenther pick was 9th at the time it was traded.

That asset was the most valuable piece returned by either team for any of their players traded, but obviously the Sharks running into injury issues and generally declining in 2020/21 ended up producing a higher 1st.

If we're talking about value at the time of the trade, Erik Brannstrom was a very good get. He was a consensus top-15/20 prospect in the league. Potentially a better prospect then Guenther is considered today.

NHL prospect rankings: Top 50 players in NHL pipelines for 2019-20

Jack Hughes and Kaapo Kakko lead the new wave of highly-touted prospects in the NHL. Sporting News ranks the full list of up-and-coming players to watch for this season.

www.sportingnews.com

Ranked above Noah Dobson, Dylan Cozens, Nick Suzuki, Jordan Kyrou, Cole Caufield, Matt Boldy, K'Andre Miller, Ilya Sorokin, etc in the list above.

You can't really have it both ways and judge some trades by what they looked like at the time and then others by how they look years later.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Gauthier/Guenther

Thanks removed

 

[Hale The Villain]

So you just care about quantity not quality then?

Show me a team that has traded a star player on an expiring contract for a better return than Tim Stützle and Josh Norris in the last 10 years.

And how are we seeing the effects of a depleted pipeline? The reality is our core is set for the next 6-8 years: Stützle, Tkachuk, Chabot, Sanderson, Norris. Not to mention Greig, Pinto, JBD, Kleven, Ostapchuk, etc. 2-3 of those guys are going to stick. Everything else is moving deck chairs around, and we'll be able to do a few times and hopefully get the formula right once.

If a new GM came in and traded Pinto for three 2nds this summer to "restock", would you be happy?

Yes the Karlsson trade worked out great. Norris proved to be an excellent acquisition as a centerpiece, even if it looked underwhelming at the time.

I'll point out the obvious that Karlsson returned a 1st round pick that turned into Tim Stutzle. There was a tremendous amount of good fortune that went into that pick ending up as high as it did, then winning the perfect lottery spot to nab the best player in the draft. If you want to pretend that it wasn't luck that went into the return ending up as good as it did, be my guest.

In my opinion we only have about 2-3 players that are guaranteed NHLers in the pipeline right now - Greig and Ostapchuk. I'm a fan of Kleven and think he has a good shot, same goes for Sogaard, but there's no question we have one of the weaker prospect pools in the league right now. Part of that has to do with our top 2 picks in 2020 graduating, but it's more to do with already having traded away our 2022 1st and burning a 2021 1st on Boucher.

If we're talking about value at the time of the trade, Erik Brannstrom was a very good get. He was a consensus top-15/20 prospect in the league. Potentially a better prospect then Guenther is considered today.

NHL prospect rankings: Top 50 players in NHL pipelines for 2019-20

Jack Hughes and Kaapo Kakko lead the new wave of highly-touted prospects in the NHL. Sporting News ranks the full list of up-and-coming players to watch for this season.

www.sportingnews.com

Ranked above Noah Dobson, Dylan Cozens, Nick Suzuki, Jordan Kyrou, Cole Caufield, Matt Boldy, K'Andre Miller, Ilya Sorokin, etc in the list above.

You can't really have it both ways and judge some trades by what they looked like at the time and then others by how they look years later.

He was a very good get. I disagree he had more value than the 9th overall pick in 2021, but it would have been close.

Stone was also an elite winger at the time of the trade and fully deserved to get Brannstrom and a lot more, but that's a whole different conversation.

 

[JD1]

Talk about a strawman

If we're talking about the performance of the GM in delivering value for his team during a rebuild, Bill Armstrong absolutely killed it for Arizona and shows how badly Pierre Dorion performed in comparison.

And yet here we are with a locked in core. A strong centre in Norris. An elite center in Stuetzle. An elite power forward in Tkachuk. Two D men in Sanderson and Chabot.

And a whole host of other players to fill around that.

Meanwhile, Arizona has what? Do they have a single player you'd trade for any of the 5 I mentioned?

 

[DaveMatthew]

Yes the Karlsson trade worked out great. Norris proved to be an excellent acquisition as a centerpiece, even if it looked underwhelming at the time.

I'll point out the obvious that Karlsson returned a 1st round pick that turned into Tim Stutzle. There was a tremendous amount of good fortune that went into that pick ending up as high as it did, then winning the perfect lottery spot to nab the best player in the draft. If you want to pretend that it wasn't luck that went into the return ending up as good as it did, be my guest.

In my opinion we only have about 2-3 players that are guaranteed NHLers in the pipeline right now - Greig and Ostapchuk. I'm a fan of Kleven and think he has a good shot, same goes for Sogaard, but there's no question we have one of the weaker prospect pools in the league right now. Part of that has to do with our top 2 picks in 2020 graduating, but it's more to do with already having traded away our 2022 1st and burning a 2021 1st on Boucher.

Right, there we agree. Taking Boucher at 10 OA is a huge miss and something this regime should be criticized for. That's going to impact this team a lot more than trading away, or not acquiring enough, 2nd round picks.

If we have to trade Debrincat, we'll see what we can recoup.

But the reason we're low in rankings is because so many of our guys have graduated. You can't penalize Ottawa because Jake Sanderson is playing in the NHL and Victor Soderstrom is not, despite being older. But sure, on paper, it looks like Arizona has a better prospect pool because Soderstrom is not an NHL regular. He's not close to as good a player though, and never will be. So who cares?

The whole ranking prospect pools is ridiculous for that very fact. Next year some team will dress an 18-year-old Bedard but he won't "count" as part of their prospect pool, and some guy on Twitter will talk about how poor their future outlook is because Corey Pronman said so in a list.

 

[Hale The Villain]

And yet here we are with a locked in core. A strong centre in Norris. An elite center in Stuetzle. An elite power forward in Tkachuk. Two D men in Sanderson and Chabot.

And a whole host of other players to fill around that.

Meanwhile, Arizona has what? Do they have a single player you'd trade for any of the 5 I mentioned?

Again, nowhere have I said that I would trade spots with the Coyotes and that they are in a better spot than we are. That's never been my point.

The Yotes were in absolute shambles when Armstrong was hired and he's done a great job at accumulating assets to right the ship. The sheer amount of quality picks and prospects he's managed to add while trading away far less impressive players is nothing short of incredible and makes crystal clear how badly Dorion bungled our rebuild by failing to get proper value for our players, wasting assets on dumb acquisitions and failing to weaponize his cap space in a similar way.

Right, there we agree. Taking Boucher at 10 OA is a huge miss and something this regime should be criticized for. That's going to impact this team a lot more than trading away, or not acquiring enough, 2nd round picks.

If we have to trade Debrincat, we'll see what we can recoup.

But the reason we're low in rankings is because so many of our guys have graduated. You can't penalize Ottawa because Jake Sanderson is playing in the NHL and Victor Soderstrom is not, despite being older. But sure, on paper, it looks like Arizona has a better prospect pool because Soderstrom is not an NHL regular.

The whole ranking prospect pools is ridiculous for that very fact. Next year some team will dress an 18-year old Bedard but he won't "count".

I completely agree that prospect pool rankings are not equivalent to rankings of what teams have the best future.

I just think even with several players graduating in recent years our pool should be a lot better than it is after dealing away so much talent.

 

[JD1]

Again, nowhere have I said that I would trade spots with the Coyotes and that they are in a better spot than we are. That's never been my point.

The Yotes were in absolute shambles when Armstrong was hired and he's done a great job at accumulating assets to right the ship. The sheer amount of quality picks and prospects he's managed to add while trading away far less impressive players is nothing short of incredible and makes crystal clear how badly Dorion bungled our rebuild by failing to get proper value for our players, wasting assets on dumb acquisitions and failing to weaponize his cap space in a similar way.



I completely agree that prospect pool rankings are not equivalent to rankings of what teams have the best future.

I just think even with several players graduating in recent years our pool should be a lot better than it is after dealing away so much talent.

You're right, you never actually said you'd trade places with Arizona

But you've gone to great lengths to point out how successful they've been and how shitty we've done.

But I listed 5 signed core players and none of them would be traded even up for anything Arizona has.

You have a particular biased point of view Hale and you go to great lengths to justify it. Analyzing information and presenting unbiased views of that analysis is a highly sought after skill. Anyone with that skill set sees you coming from a mile away.

 

[swiftwin]

Oh yeah the 3 years of Connor Brown where we were at the bottom of the standings while he was 2nd in scoring during that period of time

Exactly. You need solid, stable, good pros to keep the rebuild from flying off the rails. Brown was perfect for us and undoubtedly a great presence for the kids.

Easily worth a 3rd + 4th, especially at his low salary.

 

[BondraTime]

Chayka really f***ed the Yotes over.

As much as we complain about Dorion, he's an absolute buffoon.

Lost an 11th overall and top 40 pick because his galaxy brain thought he was ahead of the curve with draft testing

Traded a 1st (Dawson Mercer) + Kevin Bahl for 35 games of Taylor Hall

Wasted 2 top 10 picks on Soderstrom (Boldy/Knight/York/Caulfield/Newhook taken next) and Hayton (Hughes/Bouchard/Dobson/Wahlstrom)

Had Mitch Miller on their draft list

 

[Hale The Villain]

You're right, you never actually said you'd trade places with Arizona

But you've gone to great lengths to point out how successful they've been and how shitty we've done.

But I listed 5 signed core players and none of them would be traded even up for anything Arizona has.

You have a particular biased point of view Hale and you go to great lengths to justify it. Analyzing information and presenting unbiased views of that analysis is a highly sought after skill. Anyone with that skill set sees you coming from a mile away.

You seem to be incapable of separating the GM from the franchise.

I praise Bill Armstrong, an employee of the Arizona Coyotes, and you hear praise for the organization.

I criticize Pierre Dorion, an employee of the Ottawa Senators, and you hear criticism of the franchise itself.

I'd like employees of my favorite team be excellent at their job, which you seem to have a problem with.

Chayka really f***ed the Yotes over.

As much as we complain about Dorion, he's an absolute buffoon.

Lost an 11th overall and top 40 pick because his galaxy brain thought he was ahead of the curve with draft testing

Traded a 1st (Dawson Mercer) + Kevin Bahl for 35 games of Taylor Hall

Wasted 2 top 10 picks on Soderstrom (Boldy/Knight/York/Caulfield/Newhook taken next) and Hayton (Hughes/Bouchard/Dobson/Wahlstrom)

Had Mitch Miller on their draft list

He was the worst GM this league has seen since Milbury.

Proof that being fluent in advanced stats isn't sufficient to run a successful franchise.

 

[JD1]

You seem to be incapable of separating the GM from the franchise.

I praise Bill Armstrong, an employee of the Arizona Coyotes, and you hear praise for the organization.

I criticize Pierre Dorion, an employee of the Ottawa Senators, and you hear criticism of the franchise itself.

I'd like employees of my favorite team be excellent at their job, which you seem to have a problem with.

You have a biased view Hale. That you do not recognize it is actually a fairly common human trait. No worries though. It's all good. Makes for good entertainment.

I'm off to play hockey. Chat later.

 

[bert]

By spending more futures (1st round picks) to get established players for the next 4 seasons.

Not how to build a sustainable winner. You spend those assets when you're close. This team is not close. They're well below average.

 

[Mookie McGee]

Now watch Dorion listen to his genius NHL scouting and acquire Shea Webber for a 1st, because last time they saw him in the playoffs 2 years ago, he was pretty good....

Or maybe the Blackhawks retain half on Zaitsev and sell him as cheap insurance to a playoff team with our 2nd, for a late first.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Boom! That was fast

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I thought the playoff aspirations died with the Forsberg injury?

But then we went 4-1. Or 3-2.

 

[Cosmix]

Not how to build a sustainable winner. You spend those assets when you're close. This team is not close. They're well below average.

I agree the team is below average at this time; but not well below which I believe would mean bottom quartile (bottom 8 teams in the league). Adding a top RD, goaltender and upgrading the 4th line would likely make them into a playoff contending team. With luck, perhaps a SC contender. I think the team could have become that sooner with a new owner, more experienced GM and better coaching staff.